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On February 09 2011 15:42 [Atomic]Peace wrote:
ImmortalTofu, is it possible HuKs new style is player dependent? Sure he doesn't scout, but maybe he is throwing down a forge against players he knows go hatch first often? I'm really interested to know if forge first is a viable build no matter what.
If they go pool first then you just expo. Check out the day9 daily of MC vs Ret on metalopolis in close positions. He opens with a 14 forge, Ret goes pool first also at 14, so he just expos instead of any cannon rush shenanigans. Against anything but a roach rush (for me, at least) forge first is really solid. But you can usually tell that a roach rush is coming by the pool timing. If they've left the pool to 14 or so then you're probably ok.
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@Peace Well from replay, ProS seems to be excited about playing HuK, so I don't think that they play often, and Nestea is probably only a rare run-in on the ladder, and yet he opened up forge first both times. Once, the deny worked, once, it didn't, but in the second game (Nestea), even with the forge, he simply transitioned out, and had a more easily defended second base to boot. It also is great if you deny the expo and the zerg decides to go all-in, as you have cannons. I think it is very viable.
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Also, the slightly modified, more informed oGsMC version showcased in the daily of MC versus Ret is extremely viable as well, although this thread is more about proving the viability of forge-first and the variant on cannon contain.
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On February 09 2011 15:52 Asparagus wrote:
rofl Huk's resorting to cheesing zerg now? Crazy, he might as well switch to terran since he's been horrible and never even made any noise whatsoever in GSL or progaming recently.
Watch the games before you make a comment on that, it is cheese in the same way building a pylon to delay an expansion is cheese. And being 6 and 7th on the KR ladder is hardly horrible. That means he's consistently good enough to beat some of the best players on the ladder, with TWO ACCOUNTS, standing neck and neck, not just maintaining high in one. In fact, if he focused on one account, he could probably 3 or 4. BTW (This is a TL forum... HuK is part of TL I would think twice about flaming him, and thanks for bringing balance of terran into a very nice discussion of strategy).
Edit: just looked at your post history. All 35 of your posts are trash, either whining about terran, toss, laughing about toss who need help with zerg, insulting high level players, and talking about BM after losing streams. Hope your better than this in real life, cus I don't know anyone who'd wanna hang out with you.
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On February 09 2011 15:52 Asparagus wrote:
rofl Huk's resorting to cheesing zerg now? Crazy, he might as well switch to terran since he's been horrible and never even made any noise whatsoever in GSL or progaming recently.
People like you make me wish it was April because then I would have the report button. ><
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As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old.
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There is only a report button in April??? And agreed totally, darn... Anyway, let's not feed the troll. Thanks for all the compliments and insights so far guys! I'll give a link to the oGsMC daily and sum that up while I'm at it tomorrow morning... I'm tirrrreeedddd... ha, i'll stay up as long as possible to keep your questions answered. Keep em coming!
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On February 09 2011 15:59 Ryalnos wrote:
As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old.
Hmm... I've seen it, but this is the most solid way to pull it off I've seen so far... can you give me a link to a game or a recollection in which you've seen it? Also, I searched, and I found nothing about the modified cannon contain after the patch, and so decided to post this. In any case, in the current metagame, I feel it is a strong opener. Also, you are the first to mention it, hah.
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So basically the same thing that Genius did vs Idra? Except without the fail get rolled by roaches part? Definitely viable, why most don't try to open hatch first vs Toss, me personally I always send an ovvie above my hatch if I hatch first to spot for such shenanigans as cannons or bunkers, but in that instance i pull drones, he cancels, and I've lost mining time, so really a strong build.
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On February 09 2011 16:01 ImmortalTofu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 15:59 Ryalnos wrote:
As I'm sure at least someone above has brought up, this is an old strategy that has been around for a while. I seem to remember seeing it more often in US/EU events rather than the GSL, but it's definitely old. Hmm... I've seen it, but this is the most solid way to pull it off I've seen so far... can you give me a link to a game or a recollection in which you've seen it? Also, I searched, and I found nothing about the modified cannon contain after the patch, and so decided to post this. In any case, in the current metagame, I feel it is a strong opener. Also, you are the first to mention it, hah.
I think previously this kind of opening tended to revolve around pylon blocking the ramp. And because that was such a strong play, what you did afterwards almost didn't even matter, so it never seemed like these openings got developed to the extent that they are now. So while technically yes the opening has been around for a long time, it wasn't really the same.
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@onymous thanks for clarifying.
@ultramus You might wanna be a bit more proactive with that ovie in the future, patrolling it around the edge of the building hatch, as there are places that can't be scouted by a stationary ovie on some maps. Also, if I didnt' see that game, but if it had to do with building pylons next to people's bases, it was probably pretty similar.
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forge was a response to the scouted late pool or late gas, it's not just some blind cheese
the real interesting part of that game was not how he got a huge advantage, it was how he made mass gateway units in the mid-lategame look good
edit: in the DongraeguProS game
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I haven't watched Huk's stream lately, but back when I did watch Huk's stream (around the time he had a huge thing for Kpop), him cannoning a Zerg seemed pretty damn standard. so I'm not quite sure if it is really a new style for Huk.
anyways, some Zergs like Morrow always opt for extremely safe openings against Protoss and have Zerglings out before putting down a hatchery, but if a Protoss really wants to cannon a Zerg expo they can still usually get it done with minerals and pylons as walls around at least 1 cannon.
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On February 09 2011 15:06 Azide wrote:
i'm pretty sure he just masses probes while scouting and if he sees a pool he gets a gate and if he sees an early hatch he gets a forge....
He is absolutely right. On long maps huk just scouts while making probes (sometimes getting up to 16 supply waiting for the hatch). Huk himself said he scouts for hatch first. If he does then they get cannoned in the face. Other than that he just does his standard 3gate sentry expand. Huk will never open forge if he sees pool first. There is no reason to unless you are going for a forge FE. If so then that is a different story.
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This build looks interesting from a zergs pov but what if the serf goes guitars a reach build because it means you have expanded due to scouting the spawning pool. Plus your probe should die before the roach warren is scouted. Nevertheless it looks like a very well thought out build especially for a 14 hatch great delay time.
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HuK ? I have been facing this type of contain since wayyyy before the patch change.
I'm not sure HuK is the first to have done that but it's old, like 2010 old.
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On February 09 2011 14:55 KingofGods wrote:
One thing to note on your build order: there is no chance of you putting down a forge on 10 after scouting a 6 pool or anything with a 9 pylon scout. You would have to pre-emptively put down a forge on 10 before you scouted his base or for some reason wait at 10 supply until you've scouted his base.
12 forge will stop 6 pool on most maps. SoW it's tight, but if you drop it right @ 12 (if you sent a pylon) exactly when you scout it with your 9 pylon probe you should be ok (but they will probably break down your wall so you will have to make another "layer").
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EPT
