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So I've been looking to improve my league knowledge and realised I know very little about the specifics of choosing runes and how good in general certain runes are. I also figured having a central thread all about runes wouldn't be the worst idea.
The questions I've got are:
Flat HP quints vs Flat HP/s quints:
With the recent changes to dorans items can the hp/s quints give you a smoother laning phase or are they just simply overshadowed by having an extra chunk of health?
Would the situation change on a naturally tanky champ or does the extra armor/magic resist just make the flat HP even better?
Mpen Quints vs Flat AP:
Is it simply a case of AP helps early game and the extra Mpen helps lategame or am I missing something?
Armor/Magic resist flat and per Level quints:
Do they kick in to late/don't have enough efficiency? Or just that there are much better choices for quints?
Crit Chance:
Is this simply a case of it's so easy to itemise for?
Lastly
How does the process for building a rune page go? Since all the standards had to come from somewhere how does one go about choosing runes for a champion?
Would I just head into normal games without any runes and get a feel for what the character needs in relation to my playstyle?
Or
Would I take a standard page based logically on what the character should need and then tweak that?
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IMO the health quints are really there for the early game dominance. Since something like movespeed/Armpen/magpen are way better for lategame then HP quints. Therefore hp regen quints are really not as useful, since during early game/laning phase, having 5~6 hp bars means a lot compared to having 4.
Others, I'm not sure.
As for runepages, I've seen people recommend getting "general caster/dps/tank" pages.
Also, t1 runes are easily worth the cost.
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For Mpen vs Flat AP:
Some abilities don't use Mpen but use AP. Think of shields, like Morgana/Janna etc.
For crit chance:
Armour penetration is just mathematically better and more cost efficient. Not to mention abilities aren't affected by crit chance, but are affected by armour pen (think Pantheon spear etc)
Rune pages generally were built on value/budget. For example, armour penetration reds and mp5/lvl yellows just provided so much value that people chose to rune for those and get their other stats through items.
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Health quints now give 78 health. Regen quints give 8.1 health/5, meaning you need about 48 seconds in order for them to regen an equal amount of health. This does not take into account the fact that:
1. You need to take damage for them to start to come into effect.
2. They do not help you in lvl 1 teamfights as well as the very start of laning where hp and not hp/sec is most important.
I still think health quints are best overall.
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United States37500 Posts
Flat HP Quints
Flat AP Quints
Flat Armor Yellows, MR/Level Blues
Crit chance on Pirate for the most part. I know Feel no Fear runs Crit Chance Reds and Quints. I haven't seen it in anyone else's runebook.
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Health quints are to be used mostly in dual lanes since you are taking burst from two targets.
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United Kingdom5338 Posts
On February 04 2011 23:32 FR4CT4L wrote:
Would I take a standard page based logically on what the character should need and then tweak that?
Pretty much goes like this. Or just read the threads here and copy the good players. That works too. 
If you wanna read lots about runes:
http://runeterra.com/forums/index.php?topic=1137
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Hp/5 quints are great for some solo laners.
Crit Chance is only used for Tryndamere.
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magic pen gives u more damage than flat ap,even at level 1 for most champs
flat ap is for sion and other high ap ratio champs
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On February 05 2011 03:51 locodoco wrote:
magic pen gives u more damage than flat ap,even at level 1 for most champs
flat ap is for sion and other high ap ratio champs
yea, I was surprised to find this out, but I've seen it mathcrafted and Magic Pen ends up ahead of Flat AP in almost all situations.
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As mentioned, flat AP is better for all the shields, heals, Vlad's passive and it's better for killing minions and monsters. Flat AP gets boosted by your hat, and flat MPen interacts negatively with the 15%/40% MPen from the mastery/Void Staff.
Anyways, the difference between AP and MPen isn't very large afaik, so if you want an all-purpose caster page, you're probably better off with flat AP.
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On February 05 2011 03:51 locodoco wrote:
magic pen gives u more damage than flat ap,even at level 1 for most champs
flat ap is for sion and other high ap ratio champs
Flat magic pen is best at low levels, right? I mean when champs only have 30-40 magic resist, taking half of it away is a nice damage boost. Late game taking 15 magic resist away from rammus's 300 MR isn't going to do much of anything.
My "generic caster" rune pages looks like: (designed for Morgana, but I use this for anyone who deals primarily AP or magic-based damage)
Magic pen marks
Mp5/lvl seals
MR/lvl glyphs
1 magicpen quint, 2 flat AP quints
"Generic melee" rune page is:
Armor pen marks
mp5/lvl seals
MR/lvl glyphs
1 armorpen quint, 2 flat HP quints
(I think my generic melee page needs an overhaul. Any suggestions? )
My "tanky troll" rune page is:
flat armor marks
flat armor seals
mp5/lvl glyphs
1 armor quint and 2 flat hp quints
This rune page really needs a revamp after the nerf to flat HP's and mp5's. I usually only use this page for malphite/taric/rammus.
If anyone has any suggestions for my rune pages, (I also have 2 pages dedicated to specific champs, (namely Akali), which need a revamp after the changes) I'd love to hear them. I've got loads of runes, and 12k IP to blow on whatever I want, so any advice is much appreciated! Thanks!
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just run...
ArPen Reds
Armor Yellows
MRes Blues
MS Quints
on everyone imoimoimo. I guess you could use your 2nd runepage for MPen I guess.
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On February 05 2011 04:32 Haemonculus wrote:
Flat magic pen is best at low levels, right? I mean when champs only have 30-40 magic resist, taking half of it away is a nice damage boost. Late game taking 15 magic resist away from rammus's 300 MR isn't going to do much of anything.
Magic pen (and Armor pen) are equally effective at 30 or 300 mitigation, though in the latter a % reduction will be much better.
At 30 MR, a champ with 1000 HP will take 1300 magic damage to die. 15 Magic pen lowers that by 15% of HP (150) to 1150 damage to kill.
At 300 MR, same 1000 HP champ takes 4000 magic damage to die. 15 Magic pen still lowers that by 150, to 3850 damage to kill.
Armor works the exact same way.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Resistance
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On February 05 2011 07:22 LancerJ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2011 04:32 Haemonculus wrote:
Flat magic pen is best at low levels, right? I mean when champs only have 30-40 magic resist, taking half of it away is a nice damage boost. Late game taking 15 magic resist away from rammus's 300 MR isn't going to do much of anything.
Magic pen (and Armor pen) are equally effective at 30 or 300 mitigation, though in the latter a % reduction will be much better. At 30 MR, a champ with 1000 HP will take 1300 magic damage to die. 15 Magic pen lowers that by 15% of HP (150) to 1150 damage to kill. At 300 MR, same 1000 HP champ takes 4000 magic damage to die. 15 Magic pen still lowers that by 150, to 3850 damage to kill. Armor works the exact same way. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Resistancehttp://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor
Wrong.
1300 -> 1150 = about 12% more damage dealt
4000 -> 3850 = about 3% more damage dealt
Magic pen not caring about enemy magic resistance is is a fallacy. Dodge having diminishing returns is a half-fallacy afaik. Armor not having diminishing returns can be misleading.
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You are right. The numbers are about 13% damage increase using 15 magic pen against 30 MR and 3.9% damage increase for 15 magic pen against 300 MR. As I said, % pen is going to fare a lot better, but the effective health comparison is useful since it can be applied regardless of current mitigation level. It also points out the other part of the equation, which is the amount of health your target has.
Another way of stating the information would be to compare time to kill. If your hypothetical caster deals 150 magic damage per second, then the 1000 HP champ with 30 MR takes 1 second less time to kill due to 15 magic pen (8.6s -> 7.6s) while the 300 MR champion also takes 1 second less time to kill (26.6s -> 25.6s). As a percentage of dps or time to kill, flat magic pen becomes worse against very high MR targets while ability power gives you a (usually) smaller but proportional boost against all MR levels.
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On February 05 2011 01:32 Goshawk. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 23:32 FR4CT4L wrote:
Would I take a standard page based logically on what the character should need and then tweak that?
Pretty much goes like this. Or just read the threads here and copy the good players. That works too. If you wanna read lots about runes: http://runeterra.com/forums/index.php?topic=1137
I find it to be a little outdated, sadly.
Mana5/level seals and flat HP quints are different from what he lists (but not mana5/level glyphs, which is weird), I would _definitely_ not call Evasion seals 'Rank S', he underrates flat AD marks and quints, and Crit runes are a lot more niche than he gives them credit for (why would you choose to spend your precious few early-game resources on a shit early-game stat for most champions? It's like starting the game with a null-magic mantle because you want to be ready for when the enemy WW completes his Bloodrazor, while laning vs. Ashe and Olaf)
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I have ArPen and Mpen Marks for my runpages, should I get ArPen/Mpen or Flat AP/AD as Flat offensive Quints?
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On February 05 2011 20:16 Woony wrote:
I have ArPen and Mpen Marks for my runpages, should I get ArPen/Mpen or Flat AP/AD as Flat offensive Quints?
Unlike flat AP glyphs, flat AP quints don't suck, so it's not a bad idea to consider them, especially on champions with high AP ratios on their abilities and healers.
As to flat AD, there's two reasons you might want them:
1. They have a particular synergy with one or more of your champion's abilities, such as triggering Akali's passive early on or boosting Tiger Stance's damage for Udyr.
2. If your champion has low base AD, they can be a big help for not only harassment in lane but for last hitting as well; since minions will have zero armor, a high damage value per attack is the easiest way to ensure a successful last hit. If you find they're increasing your CS by a significant amount, they're probably worth getting.
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On February 05 2011 20:53 Zato-1 wrote:
2. If your champion has low base AD, they can be a big help for not only harassment in lane but for last hitting as well; since minions will have zero armor, a high damage value per attack is the easiest way to ensure a successful last hit. If you find they're increasing your CS by a significant amount, they're probably worth getting.
Read: Soraka (huehue)
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EPT
