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The game hasn't developed enough to say that a perfect Terran one base is imbalanced in that it's impossible to win. However I think its fair to say that other races seem to be at a disadvantage against the one base due to certain Terran mechanics as well as unit design.
Advantages Terran have off one base:
SCV 45 hp as opposed to 40. Although this seems small, it has a rather large impact in practice. Since P is my main race, I'll be using PvT unit comparisons.
Zealot: Attack 16, 32, 48. As shown here the increase SCV HP does not affect Zealots as the Zealot's second round of attack's total damage is 32 which is far below 40 of Probe/Drone
Stalker: Attack 10, 20, 30, 40, 50. As shown here, +5 hp increases the hits it takes for a stalker to kill an SCV to 5 attacks. Assuming a Marauder is 0/0 and a Stalker is 1/0, both units tie, but due to the increased absorption of damage by SCV from stalkers, what essentially happens is Marauders take 1 less attack then they would otherwise. In practice this causes a cascading effect in that in perfect circumstances (no kiting of scv involved)
Sentry: requires 1 more tick to kill, similar effect as described in stalker (more difficult to test because sentries are caster support and not combat)
Mules mining atop of SCV's rather than functioning as 5-6 workers to help keep Terrans economy equal with a Protoss under the assumption Protoss chronoboosted the nexus 4-5 times. The problem with this is that the 3rd worker only increases the total rate of income by roughly 20% with far patches receiving slightly more benefit than near patches. The net effect of this. I can see Blizzard's reasoning under the fact that Probes mine until killed or minerals run out, while the Mule only gives a flat 5-6 100% efficiency long boost term chronoboosted probes are quite attractive to transfer to your third expansion, but in situations where Terran players are 1 basing, the net effect is that Terran gain an economic advantage by getting their Minerals more quickly. And in close games where both players are mined out the Protoss must invest 400 minerals and the time associated to continue mining, while the Terran can lift an orbital command and fly it over to new patches,this creates a roughly 400-1200+ mineral disadvtange for the P depending on how early the nexus is constructed before the minerals are gone.
Obviously a huge influence on 1 base play is whose units are more cost effective but Zealot/Stalker/Sentry vs Marine/Marauder is far too complicated and situational as well as the fact i'm simply not qualified yet to say which is better with 100% certainty. But the general opinion of players as well as comments from the Sc2 balance team at Blizzcon is that T has the advantage with Bio units over Protoss with Gateway units and in the later stages of the game Protoss's tech is said to be more powerful that Terrans Tech.
With all these advantages a Terran has by going 1 base every game there's no wonder why the vast majority of developed build orders in PvT is a sit in base and 1 base timing attack at a specific predetermined point in game.
Again, I can't know the true balance because at this moment no one knows what perfect P or T play looks like so no one could possibly have the answer as to whether a perfect expansion build can hold 100% against a perfect 1 base build
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Sure terran are strong on 1 base, but I believe larger maps mostly negate their 1 base advantage.
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Terran 1basing can be annoying and frustrating but it certainly is not unbeatable. I think as the maps get bigger 1basing will just become terrible period and stuff like SCV all ins will be a thing of the past.
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There are far too many Terran One base strategies for a single Protoss expansion build to hold them off. Most of the time you have to be very reactive.
I do agree with Whiplash, if there were bigger maps then the 1base play wouldn't be as effective, what shits me the most is maps like close position meta or Steppes of war where you are within sneezing distance and Terran just roll over you with a 1base all-in with SCV's.
Hopefully bigger maps solve this issue, something like Cross position Tal'darim Altar would be almost impossible for Terran to one base all-in you without getting curb stomped
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No. Simply because the longer the game goes, the harder it is for Terran to win. Being on one base limits your opportunities are gameplay. They can do a lot on one base, but they're also on one base sacrificing map-control and they're sacrificing unit production rates.
One base means only 30 workers, means they've already hit their maximum rate of collecting minerals. Slowing down production of units and slowing down the pace of teching of units.
That's just for starters.
Consider why the Terran goes one-base and tries to end the game relatively quickly.
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Bigger maps will revert this but then the sensortower will become the new unfair(?) advantage of T.
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Did you know that SCVs had 60 health in BW? Just a fun fact 
The reasons you listed are not what makes terran strong. Its simply because their harass is not punishing enough when/if it fails. Bigger maps will help cut down on all-ins and give other races more time to prepare for banshees or drops.
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On February 03 2011 04:25 Torte de Lini wrote:
No. Simply because the longer the game goes, the harder it is for Terran to win. Being on one base limits your opportunities are gameplay. They can do a lot on one base, but they're also on one base sacrificing map-control and they're sacrificing unit production rates.
One base means only 30 workers, means they've already hit their maximum rate of collecting minerals. Slowing down production of units and slowing down the pace of teching of units.
That's just for starters.
Terrans can actually stay competitive on 1 base against 2 basers for a longer period by virtue of Mule over mining, IE 24 probes on minerals vs 18 scv's on minerals + mule, The Terran gets more income because 8 of the Probes are only mining at 20% efficiency while only 2 of the terrans SCV's are mining at 20% effeicency and in full saturation situations the income of a terran 1 base is equal to that of a protoss + an expansion with 5-6 probes on it.
Edit: I think SCV HP is a relic of BW because in BW Terran Marine/Firebat did not rofl stomp Zealot/Dragoon, it was the other way around, my argument is that the current situation in sc2 is as if Probes in Sc1 had 45 hp and Scv's had only 40 hp.
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your post seems pre emptive, you barely had any decent arguements. you basically told us why you think Terran is good to 1 base and that was it.
anyone could say 1 thing and claim something, you have absolutely nothing to support this.
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Yes, Terrans can 1base a bit longer than protoss. So? They also can 2base a bit longer for the exact same reason.
I'm surprised you brought up scv health, considering that probes have shields and drones regenerate. That can easily compensate for 5 extra health.
I agree with most of the people here. It's far too early to say with these maps. Many of the maps are quite small so 1base strategies are favored anyway.
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Terran are strong on one base, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I like that some games have very intense battles in the early games while some games are complete macro-fests. Anyway, the larger GSL and iCCup maps make for longer games and will prolly remove any (unfair?) advantage that terran has early game.
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I hate when they attack on close positions on lost temple with marine/tank/medivac while just starting their expansion.
Then they call you a noob and brag about how they killed you while "expanding"
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Protoss can one - base pretty long too and have a scary push.. Also you state wrong facts. Drones regenerate health and probes shields - and that not even slow. So usually probe vs scv and drone vs scv, the drone/probe should always win if you are not a total newb.
1 base allins are amazingly strong by terran, at least vs Protoss, since Protoss does not have AoE early in the game - Zerg got banelings to stop allins so its more viable as Zerg to stop allins.
But yeah, Protoss has guardian shield to reduce the damage, but nothing that could really challenge mass marine tank 1 base allin, especially if you play an expo. Still - its not unbeatable.
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"Yeah, the metagame hasn't developed enough to say it's imbalanced, but yeah, here's a bunch of race specifics mechanics that proof it is. Not saying it's imbalanced, but it's imba, overpowered and ridiculous. This is not a whine thread."
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I just lost to a 1 base terran who turtled up to like 10 battlecruiser while i was trying to breakthrough his irresistable defence of siege tanks, and turrets which made me unable to get in as a protoss player. after some frustrating time he roflstomped me with all battlecruisers and i could gg out...
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well protoss has their share of 1 base allins as well.
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On February 03 2011 04:40 Copymizer wrote:
I just lost to a 1 base terran who turtled up to like 10 battlecruiser while i was trying to breakthrough his irresistable defence of siege tanks, and turrets which made me unable to get in as a protoss player. after some frustrating time he roflstomped me with all battlecruisers and i could gg out...
Sorry to say so, but that makes you a terrible player.. but not Terran imbalanced.
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Also note that regenerating shields rarely helps in probe combat beyond scouting probe harassment because the probe must be out of combat for 10 in game seconds and it will almost surely die if its going to die or live if its going to live in that amount time. Also, not to put into question everyones' posting ability, can maybe someone with more knowledge than me in certain areas contribute something rather then just comment with opinions based on my opinions preferably backed up with some sort of evidence.
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On February 03 2011 04:43 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 04:40 Copymizer wrote:
I just lost to a 1 base terran who turtled up to like 10 battlecruiser while i was trying to breakthrough his irresistable defence of siege tanks, and turrets which made me unable to get in as a protoss player. after some frustrating time he roflstomped me with all battlecruisers and i could gg out... Sorry to say so, but that makes you a terrible player.. but not Terran imbalanced.
This. He's on one base, you can easily scout everything he has and if he takes the time to get BCs, you have an ample amount of time to get the right units and numbers to overcome it.
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Belgium9949 Posts
None of your arguments is actually an argument. Why do people feel the need to use overly simplistic models to reach conclusions about the complex gameplay? If anything it displays that their game understanding is too limited to reach any valid conclusion.
Closing this.
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EPT
