Nada(t) vs Reach(p) starts in a few minutes. As I have decided to watch it from home, I will be able to post game results as they come!

Game 1: The Lost Temple
Nada defeats Reach

Game 2: River of Flame
Nada defeats Reach

Game 3: Blade Storm
Nada defeats Reach

Nada is a fucking monster -_-

Smorrie

Netherlands2942 Posts

October 05 2002 02:18 GMT

Senff

United States360 Posts

October 05 2002 03:27 GMT

Uh oh, that can't be a good sign. Come on Reach, don't blow it all now...

mensrea

Canada5062 Posts

October 05 2002 03:32 GMT

Here's how Nada won games 1 & 2: plant mines, siege, build turrets, unsiege, move forward, plant mines, siege, build turrets, unsiege, move forward, ad nauseum.

Here's how Nada won game 3: same as above, except just a few less turrets and more rines.

Haven't we all seen this happen like HUNDREDS of times before? Isn't it about time people learned that winning with the same strat 9 times out of 10 may just mean that something's not completely balanced in the game? Fuck everything else: just power down the turrets to what they were pre-1.08 for crissakes. This isn't funny anymore.

RedMeat

United Kingdom490 Posts

October 05 2002 05:04 GMT

I was about to start whining along similar lines after Nazgul vs sven replay but I was too scared :O. Terran is gay, they have to do nothing to win in most games while protoss needs to fast expo just to keep up. Protoss should at least have an edge in the very late game as they are supposed to be the most powerful race but they don't as scouts and arbiters aren't really cost effective (unless you have already won from a resource standpoint).

Waxangel

United States33675 Posts

October 05 2002 06:28 GMT

I disagree with mensrea again :O

First off, Nada never really "pushed", in the sense where you siege and unsiege, making lots of forward progress. Perhaps game 3 was like that at the start, but Reach took Nada's force down several times when he did that. It was the resource advantage that let Nada kill reach using tank mode that won the game.

It was more of taking a large force as far as he could take it, and put it in siege mode the second he saw a dot in the minimap. Not exactly pushing in the sense!

Reach was close to being able to fight Nada's push at several points in the game, it's just to Nada's credit that he was able harass reach's expanding while expanding himself. The series was one through Nada's abilities to have more money than protoss.

HnR)hT

United States3468 Posts

October 05 2002 06:54 GMT

I cant wait to see how nada does in the next ongamenet starleague, since its pretty much a given that he will qualify.

mensrea

Canada5062 Posts

October 05 2002 07:48 GMT

Wax, in your youthful haste to disagree with me (a hobby of yours, I'm beginning to see), you're not understanding the point I was trying to make: I didn't mean to imply that Nada pushed all the way into Reach's main and that he pushed Reach into submission. The point is, Nada employed the mine/turret/siege strat to take over the game and enable his wins. The point is that this same strat gets used way too often and way too effectively in virtually every TvP final in Korea SINCE THE TURRET UPGRADES IN 1.08 (i.e. Last December's SKY, the Challenge Legaue Finals between Xellos and Intotherain and now the KPGA 3rd Mastership). The point is it's a strat that's proven to be very close to unbeatable if executed correctly. I hope you get the point now.

My money's on Boxer using the same 'ol next week v Reach, but Boxer's an unorthodox player and likes to try different things. He did try it last year in SKY v Garimto (it didn't work that time, tho - but there's a story to it I don't plan on getting into atm...), so we'll just have to see.

But in any case, I would disagree with the statement that Nada never made any forward progress. For example, Nada put the choke on Reach's natural in LT that way: by starting with mine/turret/siege from the middle of the map and slowly making his way forward to just outside of Reach's natural. OF COURSE it was the resource advantage that enabled Nada to win: because there was no way for Reach to break out from Nada's mine/turret/siege Maginot. And harrassing Nada's expos via shuttle drop was basically made unviable after the first ten minutes because turrets were plastered all over the map. Slightly different scenario and map, but basically the same strat again for both games 2 and 3 (tho Nada didn't need to make progress all the way to Reach's expos those games, just control the middle).

Anyway, put up the links on this game and let people see for themselves. I'd really like to get a serious discussion on this going, not necessarily to prove me right (I believe I am), but to get a wide sample of opinions on this and hopefully arrive at at least a close approximation of the truth.

TeG-EviscEratoR

Romania101 Posts

October 05 2002 08:42 GMT

Increasing the turret cost will determine terran players to settle for ..let's say 6 turrets instead of 8 for a push. This will not help much the toss, since a good counter for beeing sieged is strong recon and map control, not allowing terran to start building stuff near centre of the map or base.
Off-topic: Mensrea you once told me there is some english sign up on ongamenet web-site. Can you explain more or give a link ?

Waxangel

United States33675 Posts

October 05 2002 08:49 GMT

#10

I disagree again

?

Ummm, from what I gather you're saying the STANDARD terran method of attacking is imbalanced, thus T v P is imbalanced

?

Then I disagree even more. That's wrong in so many ways -_-;; I stand on the side of the people who think the game is balanced as it is though, this could make an interesting discussion.

And if I didn't understand your first post, I'll have to say the way you wrote it is as fault alongside my eagerness to discredit you :O (Nada won by attack moving 3408989 mech after he had huge resource advantage)

Liquid`Crystal

Canada398 Posts

October 05 2002 10:35 GMT

#11

terran vs protoss is absoutley fine

reach imo is just way outclassed by nada's style of play.

mensrea

Canada5062 Posts

October 05 2002 10:58 GMT

#12

Wax, you're the only one so far to make incorrect generalizations about what I wrote. Your summation of my argument is also wrong. My only point is that the turrets should be brought back to pre-1.08. Admittedly, there is far from a consensus on the issue. For example, Angel agrees with me on my turret observation (check out the thread on it a while back at halpmeh - you may remember it). On the other hand, the person who may best be able to comment on this, Nazgul, doesn't. I don't want to argue with you on this, so I'm leaving it at that with you.

Relax. No need to get snarky.

RedMeat

United Kingdom490 Posts

October 05 2002 14:28 GMT

#13

Ooh, ooh, another balance discusision

.
I would also be interested to hear what people like Nazgul think on the issue not many (if any) well known players have commented on the issue. Probably this is because it sounds bad for them to say the game is imbalanced or not as this seem like they are making excuses, I think gosu players will never comment about game balance (certainly not publicly).
Anyways, I hope some changes are made with the next patch (ref. all the other times I've got into balance discussions).