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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
Then if both bunkers actually go down, obviously you want to try to kill the scvs as they are building (maybe?) but chances are this won't work, so both bunkers go up. What then? If I have already started a hatch at my natural, should I cancel it, or is there any chance to save it in time? Is it best to try and bust out with a spine crawlers, roaches, or banelings? | ||
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Crackensan
United States479 Posts
Whatever defense you choose you will behind the Terran. Spine Crawler/Roach defenses and break out will put you behind in eco, as will speedling and Baneling break outs. The best defense is to prevent it from happening, proper scouting at your ramp is key. | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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ChinoReem
Canada137 Posts
also if your still scared about a proy 2 rax (meaning you only see one) put your scouting drone somewhere between your bases till you have lings to replace it, this way youll see if more scvs are coming. dont be afraid to pull drones to kill workers making bunkers. and out of preference i always drop a spine against t the second my nat finishes. 2 if i see 2rax, because sometimes they will send the first rine and 2 scvs in a 2rax or they will wait till they have like 6 and send 4 scvs for a bit later of a push, but very scary if you have no spines up. | ||
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Turo
Canada333 Posts
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
As far as knowing if it can occur at all: to block you in, your opponent needs the minerals. If their timings are tight, you should have an idea of what they can afford when (at least in the early game). Just in general, if you know your opponent should be able to afford something (say, a second Barracks) and they don't put down a Barracks or anything else, it's a safe bet that they have other plans for those resources, and you should start to try to figure out what. If your opponent starts building a Command Center as soon as possible off of one Barracks, it's a safe bet they don't have something proxied to come and kill you. They also need enough of a presence with units to be able to contend with whatever units you'll use to fend off the attempt: one lone SCV shouldn't be capable of doing much if you have vision of your ramp (and you should). If you see a few SCV's and a Marine pushing out right away, your opponent has more than enough to deal with one Drone patrolling, so don't just patrol one Drone and go away - they likely intend on doing something you can't stop with one Drone. Again, in general, you want to try to know what your opponent is doing (which includes what they aren't doing). If you assume they are doing it for a good reason and prepare accordingly, you can only be pleasantly surprised to find out that your opponent is doing something weak. | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
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Dominator1370
United States111 Posts
On January 25 2011 03:39 Treemonkeys wrote: So do terrans not do it more often because it is easy to block with drones? It seems almost impossible for me to block but I must be underestimating drone micro. It requires a significant investment for the Terran. They're putting themselves behind by the cost of the bunkers (at least temporarily), the mining time of any SCV's they send, and the resources of anything they lose. That means that anything else they do is going to be slowed down. If the bunker rush does no damage, even if they didn't actually lose anything themselves, they're still later on building whatever they were planning on building next, because they lost mining time on the SCV's and the resources from the bunkers were unavailable for a while. As far as Drones holding it off, you're thinking about this the wrong way. The goal with your Drones isn't to hold off waves and waves of units until your opponent GG's, but to buy you enough time to get either some Zerglings (if you went for an early pool) or a Spinecrawler at your natural (if you went for an early expand). | ||
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On January 25 2011 04:00 Dominator1370 wrote: It requires a significant investment for the Terran. They're putting themselves behind by the cost of the bunkers (at least temporarily), the mining time of any SCV's they send, and the resources of anything they lose. That means that anything else they do is going to be slowed down. If the bunker rush does no damage, even if they didn't actually lose anything themselves, they're still later on building whatever they were planning on building next, because they lost mining time on the SCV's and the resources from the bunkers were unavailable for a while. As far as Drones holding it off, you're thinking about this the wrong way. The goal with your Drones isn't to hold off waves and waves of units until your opponent GG's, but to buy you enough time to get either some Zerglings (if you went for an early pool) or a Spinecrawler at your natural (if you went for an early expand). I find it hard to understand how they are risking that much, though I guess I could see this on really far positions. Assuming it goes horribly wrong, they will lose two scvs and maybe a marine - the bunkers will have never been started, but this it at the price of zerg having to pull drones to also lose mining time, as well as possibly force extra lings which is also harmful, it seems like worst case for terran he will still be equal or just slightly behind. The price of the bunkers doesn't really factor in, because if he actually spends the minerals to build them, it's almost a guaranteed success, which people are confirming in this thread. I do realize that I don't need to hold off waves and waves with drones, but my problem is I never seem to get a spine crawler or lings in time, so I am usually fighting two scvs + one marine with drones. Just going back and forth to block them, not going for the kill, but eventually the marine kills a drone or two. When I go 14 hatch I can't get a spine crawler up at the natural in time, the bunkers are there before the hatch even finishes. When I go 15 pool, the lings are not out in time either. Now what I'm really curious about, and will start testing is - what is worse for the zerg economy? Go 12 or 13 pool, whenever is needed to have early lings and shut this down cold, or to go for a later 15 pool, but losing mining time to try and block this. | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
Chase his scv with a drone as soon as it enters your base, so he can't do it in some wierd hidden place where your ovie isnt at. Make sure your overlord is at your nat, gaining vision for any bunker play. If you see 2 scvs, he's definetley trying to bunker or even wall you, in which case I suggest bringing 4 drones to come kill them. Now assuming you are watching the chasing drone often, you will see if he tries to wall off your ramp, and as soon as you see him do so, patrol the drone on the oher 2x2 space to prevent the bunker being placed, then pull off 3 more drones to kill the scv If you place your crawler as soon as pool finishes, you can fend off early 1/2 marines with drones + lings. | ||
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zakmaa
Canada525 Posts
Please use the search function next time.. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
EDIT: ah here it is: | ||
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-miDnight-
Taiwan455 Posts
onece you get contain by bunker, you will be behine and good terran will win in mid game. the only way to come back is to take a risky third. | ||
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
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Rakanishu2
United States475 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On January 25 2011 05:47 Treemonkeys wrote: I find it hard to understand how they are risking that much, though I guess I could see this on really far positions. Assuming it goes horribly wrong, they will lose two scvs and maybe a marine - the bunkers will have never been started, but this it at the price of zerg having to pull drones to also lose mining time, as well as possibly force extra lings which is also harmful, it seems like worst case for terran he will still be equal or just slightly behind. The price of the bunkers doesn't really factor in, because if he actually spends the minerals to build them, it's almost a guaranteed success, which people are confirming in this thread. I do realize that I don't need to hold off waves and waves with drones, but my problem is I never seem to get a spine crawler or lings in time, so I am usually fighting two scvs + one marine with drones. Just going back and forth to block them, not going for the kill, but eventually the marine kills a drone or two. When I go 14 hatch I can't get a spine crawler up at the natural in time, the bunkers are there before the hatch even finishes. When I go 15 pool, the lings are not out in time either. Now what I'm really curious about, and will start testing is - what is worse for the zerg economy? Go 12 or 13 pool, whenever is needed to have early lings and shut this down cold, or to go for a later 15 pool, but losing mining time to try and block this. First off, you are FEing, which is greedy and terran really needs to respond, either like this, allin, timing push or play greedy too. On short distances, it's by far easiest and most profitable to do this, but if it fails, the terran has both gotten behind on econ by FE punishment failing(aswell as possible losses) ontop of that your own stuff comes a bit later. The risk part is really that, by FEing the zerg throws the ball in your hands to punish it. By bunkering and failing, you didn't FE and you didn't punish it. You can't really think of just one side "he didn't take any direct losses, bunkers be free mon!". On drone micro, a-move and make sure to pull the drone getting targeted behind and possibly just keep sending them to the mineral line(depending on how much time till lings/spines). | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On January 24 2011 23:53 Treemonkeys wrote: Okay, first of all, is it best to patrol a drone and try to block it? Once you see them trying to build bunkers, should I pull a couple more drones to help block? Then if both bunkers actually go down, obviously you want to try to kill the scvs as they are building (maybe?) but chances are this won't work, so both bunkers go up. What then? If I have already started a hatch at my natural, should I cancel it, or is there any chance to save it in time? Is it best to try and bust out with a spine crawlers, roaches, or banelings? Alot of people just leave if the bunkers go down at all because you will be behind. ie idra at gsl, but you need to see if he is doing 2 rax and have an ovy watch your nat, if the bunkers go down then it is your error. | ||
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