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I think everyone is familiar with the SC1 way of playing maps. If not, it's relatively simple to explain. The Korean tournaments (OSL, MSL and Proleague) rotated maps between seasons. Generally, both the MSL and OSL would take a few of the proleague maps, as well as using their own individual maps for the season. On iCCup, where all the non-pros played, the maps that were being used at the time by the pros would be used by the non-pros, because one, amatuers want to be like pros, and two, they would be able to find good recent strategies only on the maps that were being used in the competitive circuit. With this method, the maps remain fresh and fun to play.
In SC2, the mappool remains mostly static. I've heard that the Warcraft III mappool has literally never changed from day 1. Well now I guess I know what they feel like. Currently, not only are the maps BAD, but they're boring to play because they're the only maps we can to play.
I would obviously prefer some Korean mapmakers or even better, the iCCup mappers to be able to get their maps in the circuit. In the end, every mapper's goal, including myself, wants his/her map to be played in the competitive circuit. For foreign Brood War mappers, this was pretty impossible. You can find hundreds of great maps on a site like broodwarmaps.net, but you'll never see any made by a user, played on the pro level. Even if the map was made an iCCup map, no one played it because no pros played on them.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't mind too much if Blizzard used their own maps. Ok, actually, I would mind a lot. But it's still better than keeping a static map pool like it is right now. Strategies are so static and boring to use over and over again. There's no diversity. Because the game is so young, the strategies are still changing (some of which has to do with the balance patches, but those are finishing off I believe), but it'll settle down soon enough. Only with new maps does everything keep fresh.
For an example, a lot of people HATE playing on Python in SC1. It's been in use for so long and people still make games on it, but a number of people avoid it altogether if possible. The map itself is amazing, but a million games on the same map will get dull.
There are two problems with the current system. One, Blizzard doesn't change their mappool. Two, the only way to get consistent practice on tournament maps is the ladder. Thus, tournaments choose only the ladder maps when deciding the mappools, since pros will rage at the tournament organizers if they do not. There's a few tiny exceptions but all of the major tournaments like MLG, GSL, and all of them that are noteworthy, never use any map outside the ladder maps.
Honestly, it all comes down to Blizzard not doing the simple thing, and changing the ladder map pool. They say maps are not their concern right now and I think that's stupid. Balance is more or less done. Minor imbalances could form later, and I know they're getting a ton of features in for b.net 2.0, but in Brood War, maps were EVERYTHING. Pretty much the only thing that changed the gameplay were maps, and on ocassion, players like Bisu. Delaying a new balance change or a new feature for b.net for a day won't be much, and while I don't know much about making a game, I'm pretty sure it doesn't take that long to change the map pool.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
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I think they'll care soon, because blizzard isn't some company that will show no interest in players or communities requests.
I trust 'em (for making steppes bigger :D, j/k)
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post
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On December 24 2010 06:43 eksert wrote:
I think they'll care soon, because blizzard isn't some company that will show no interest in players or communities requests.
I trust 'em (for making steppes bigger :D, j/k)
Tell that to WC3 players who begged for new maps for years.
To be honest, "Blizzard cares" seems almost as naive (for the lack of a better word) as "Arbeit match frei" to me. The WC3 BNet/ladder is a shithole specifically because blizzard does not care. Not even going to get into the whole "suing companies that made StarCraft big in Korea" bullshit. T____T
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 24 2010 06:44 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post
Yes and no. It's the reason for all of the complaints listed in the OP, but I think the OP believes that Blizzard will do something eventually. I mean we're still waiting for Shakuras to be re-added to the map pool.... The only way anything will ever happen is if the community takes it upon itself to make a change, which is really really difficult. But there really isn't any other way you're going to see a healthy rotation of maps. Blizzard are just leaving it up to the community to figure it out.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
winner winner chicken dinner, bliz's philosophy is as follows--make as much profit with the least investment it works pretty well for them look at wow a game that hasn't changed since day1 (in terms of skill level) every "boss" is a culmination of old bosses with new textures throw on an "expansion" and its a "brand new game"~ custom map creators are the only way tournaments and such can be fair, however, the average player who isn't in a clan/team won't be able to practice on said maps, therefore, lowering the number of up-and-coming gamers
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I think there could definitely be more rotation, but we have seen some new maps pop in / pop out in the time since Phase 1 beta. Xel'Naga and DQ were new with one patch, same with Jungle and Shakuras, remember incineration zone? I think part of the problem is that some of the current maps are so broken for certain matchups that they're SOOOO consistantly thumbs downed and you get the same 3 maps in ever Bo3. Why would a zerg play on DQ or SoW if they didn't absolutely have to? I really think that blizzard should have a maps contest. After patch 1.2, switch the PTR pool to havea list of the 10 best maps by their judgement submitted, then see which ones people thumb down, bring in those maps for a try, rinse, and repeat.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
What do you mean? I remember David Kim talking at Blizzcon saying that they were aiming for a variety of maps that cover all sorts of play, macro, rush maps, and those in between. And I recall things being said about not wanting the maps in the ladder to be too technical so everyone can enjoy them
I think they care, they are just kind of clueless and always have been, in every one of their RTS games, when it comes to maps.
The map situation definitely ruins SC2 for me though. I envision a best case scenario for the future where GSL has their own map pool and we all find games via chat and we don't have a ladder to enjoy because the maps are still the same assortment of garbage we've always had. Though this time there will never be a gamei or pgtour or iccup
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Maybe should start playing Iccup maps again. I know there are official iccup maps available on the custom games. I've played some, shit was cash. Mostly bigger, balanced and funner maps than Blizzmaps. Just saying.
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I heard that they need to balance small maps to get to the bigger ones.
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Oh god python was getting on my nerves.
If blizzard are too lazy, y cant they just use the iccup maps? i havent seen a single iccup map that isnt as terrible as the current maps (maybe with the exception of shakuras) .
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Since release they removed kulas and desert oasis and moved in xel'naga, shakuras, and jungle basin. Sure it's not as good of a solution as adding ICCup maps but it sure is a lot different than war3 and isn't even comparable. Maps, in general, are also seeing a more favorable trend. Out of the eight starting maps or so only one was deemed "good" by most players - Metalopolis. Two more "good" maps were added post-release with xel'naga and shakuras. Some folks enjoy jungle but others do not -- at least it is a little more of a unique map (may have protoss warp-in-madness bias here).
The game has only been out a few months, so at the current rate they're tossing one out every month or two which is ok. Ideally I think it should be about two a month, which means the average map would have about a four month stint. (No reason to force good maps off the list though)
Too much doom and gloom imo. The best solution is obviously user made maps, but the map pool is hardly 100% forgotten about as mentioned by the war3 players.
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ill guess with new patch 1.2 we might be seeing newly added maps at least to the ladder pool, even tho those maps might not be listed as ladder maps on ptr ?
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I suggest employing the expertise of fairfax mcclandlish, the creator of the war3 map twisted meadows, my vote for the greatest RTS terrain ever created by man. really tho they should do something like this, two rivers and twisted are some of my favorites, take maps from the community blizz, it invigorated war3 and will do so for SC.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/maps/mapcontest.shtml
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On December 24 2010 06:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. What do you mean? I remember David Kim talking at Blizzcon saying that they were aiming for a variety of maps that cover all sorts of play, macro, rush maps, and those in between. And I recall things being said about not wanting the maps in the ladder to be too technical so everyone can enjoy them
I would like to point out that David Kim also said that the ladder maps were not actually meant to be used in tournaments because of said features, and that Tournament Organizers should create their own maps to be used in the tournaments.
Due to obvious reasons though, this is not possible how Blizzard imagines it, since a lot of practicing is done on the ladder and there is no organisation on top of thing that decides what maps are to be played. That is, if they actually thought about it, and didn't just want to pass on the work of creating balanced and good maps because they are too lazy/busy, and also only if David Kim didn't talk for himself and how he would like things to be, as opposed to talking for Blizzard.
I really hope we wont be stuck with the same old (partially terrible) maps. That would really hurt SC2 as a competitive game.
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Actually plexa, the problem is lack of good support for hosting custom games like broodwar had. You could actually host lobbies back then, now maps get buried in the list and no one ever plays custom maps and makes it near impossible for the community to have a healthy map rotation.
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Blizzard should allow major tournaments (GSL, MLG) to host seperate ladders on BNET2 where they get to decide the mappool. Players could then choose to play their ladder matches on the ladder they choose, so they are able to practice with the right mappool using the existing ladder system.
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its just a matter of time before koreans will start get some maps popular and played in custom games and added by big korean events like gsl, and from there they will get added into the foreigner scene and then foreigners will start practicing on them
i doubt all the progamers will stick to this blizzard ladder forever as their main source of practice
personally im really sick of the blizzard maps and i think they were terrible since day1. im not saying they should make all maps like sc1 im just saying if they tweaked the current maps they could become alot better
and i hope they start frequently changing ladder maps. i just assumed they kept same maps for all this time just so they could balance it easier but im starting to loose faith that blizzard will care enough to let the ladder map pool stay fresh
On December 24 2010 07:46 DizzyDrone wrote:
Blizzard should allow major tournaments (GSL, MLG) to host seperate ladders on the blizzard servers where they get to decide the mappool. Players could then choose to play their ladder matches on the ladder they choose, so they are able to practice on the maps for the tournament they will be attending.
yes its the best way really. blizzard should make it possible for others to make their own "ladder server" so blizzard dont have to keep up with the gsl mlg map pools at same time gsl mlg are not forced to play the blizzard maps
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On December 24 2010 07:46 MorroW wrote:
yes its the best way really. blizzard should make it possible for others to make their own "ladder server" so blizzard dont have to keep up with the gsl mlg map pools at same time gsl mlg are not forced to play the blizzard maps
i would love if that happened
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