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I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot.
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the current map situation seems to be a pretty big upset throughout the whole sc2 community...
i personally don't think it's that bad.
but what i would almost bet on is, that with the start of the new ladder season they will bring up new maps.
and with that, everytime the ladder gets resetet the maps will rotate or change.
i mean sure, blizzard is not really reacting fast in certain things but i mean sc2 is how old? half a year?
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to all of you who think blizzard will bring new maps, that is not the problem.
the problem is that blizzard maps are NOT good. i couldn't care less if we had another steppes in the mappool next season. we need much better maps.
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On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote:
I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot.
GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time).
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On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote:
I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time).
wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps.
Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps.
I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not.
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On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote:
I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not.
I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it.
If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon.
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They should just make a separate map pool for people in Grand Master League, and implement GSL Map Maker Maps into it.
That way, you can let pros have their ladder practice on new good maps for the GSL (and hopefully other tournaments).
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On December 24 2010 10:51 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 09:48 pzea469 wrote:
I think MAYBE we need to stop playing ladder and simply start playing on ICCUP maps. Yeah, auto-matchmaking is awesome, but if it means boring maps that i don't like then I'd gladly give it up and play custom games. ICCUP and bw ramake maps make me drewl. Problem is that there are no game names and theres no way to know if theres a map opening. For example, if you want to play FS, you will join and then wait forever. No one will know that you are waiting. Also, since theres no game name, D/1000 diamond player may join when you are B-/3000 diamond or something...
Yeah true, without being able to name the game its tough. Maybe with chat channels something can get started...
More whining from the community is needed though, like we should have all the small tournaments and things like the TSL open be with the ICCUP maps and some bw remake maps maybe.
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We need better maps + the option to create ladder games instead of just automatic matchmaking (yes its nice to find games fast) but sux if you want to practice a certain mu or a certain map and you dont have any friends online or friends of the right skill.
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Yeah....since everyone cares so much about points, this is what I say Blizzard does...
They take maps from a certain 3rd party organization that runs some type of server back in BW. They try to emulate those maps and recreate them in the SC2 universe, and balance them based upon the new units in the game.
After they release these maps, they should have this concept called "maps of the week", where if you play on these maps, you get more points. You see, this forces players then to vote down other maps and play on these so-called "maps of the week", because everyone wants more points to look better on ladder.
After that, you cycle the maps every week, and then you end the season after oh....13-15 weeks and you reset everyone's stats.
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On December 24 2010 23:54 Tump wrote:
They should just make a separate map pool for people in Grand Master League, and implement GSL Map Maker Maps into it.
That way, you can let pros have their ladder practice on new good maps for the GSL (and hopefully other tournaments).
Not a good approach imo, pros tend to train via customgames and it sucks for the average player to watch if he doesn't know the maps, so there would be no real benefit by this solution.
You could extend the mappool for all players with new custommaps and give players more vetoes, that way you can have the diversified experience Blizzard wants for its customers and give aspiring players/pros the chance to play maps used in tournaments. Tournaments should use some/all of the laddermaps, and every new ladderseason should include a new mappool consisting of good old maps and new maps, and everyone will be happy. Except for Idra, because he plays Zerg :p
€
This would mean that Blizzard has to coordinate the creation of new maps, but they did a great job with that in WC3, so it shouldn't be a problem.
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Sorry for the dumb question, but why don't tournaments advertise and set up new maps again?
The vast majority of players are crying out for them, pros would have to appreciate that (and would appreciate new maps for sure, + Show Spoiler +whether they are given the time to practice on them or not.
We are only getting the occasional "showmatch" showcasing new community maps on (more or less) popular casting platforms... and hearing how the map situation sucks...
blizz is blizz and will only do anything for blizz (they got us the game: job done!).
So laddering cannot be considered as a valid training platform IF you want to introduce NEW maps for tourneys (other than blizz's ladder tourney).
Alternate tourneys decision makers could use a petition or something to help them jump the cliff...
they should already have had polls going (at least one for pro rated and one for everyone)..
Introducing new maps on top of blizz's ladder for their tourney + Show Spoiler +(one should never thumbs down anything!, we need more, never less and we should try to get blizz to get that..., I liked Shakuras or even Incineration... Incineration only once in a while, granted)
Tournaments veto results would serve a a good barometer and the ball would be rolling which is the prime problem right now: the ball has not been rolled yet.
such map additions (and its been said over and over and over) should be done with a rhythm to them... and said "good" rhythm is the hardest part to establish for it to benefit everyone...
I guess these guys need the balls to start... maybe fail (with new maps being hated as much as blizzs' for one), but I doubt it... the games should be awesome... and viewer count would grow even faster..
Personally I feel all the reasons (like "pros can't get decent practice on custom") are bull...t waste of time..
because I rather worry about how the lag on bigger maps would be in tourneys (or other such things), which might be the reasons blizz is doing it the way they are...
then again, like michael jackson did it with "Bad", blizz might just be making us wait just to inflate expectations and future sales...
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I feel it would be some work, but possible to create an in-house ladder system. Meaning, its all played as custom games, on specific maps. Lets take all the iccup maps for instance. There would be 10 maps total in a map rotation (because of the map publish limit in bnet), and then players would go to a website and sign up for the ladder, their games, from then on, are parsed when ever they meet someone else "on the ladder".
This would basically be a website-tracker type deal that keeps its own ladder rankings, based on the players who sign up for it. For any one who wants to practice on a map in the pool,, then just join a different map name but the same map. Like, "iCCup Ladder" and "iCCup Practice"
Its already possible because of the way sc2ranks works. Or perhaps even have a launcher type deal that just gets the replays and gets the info from them, and sends that to a database.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote:
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
Nail. Head. Hit.
But in reality, it wasn't Blizzard who made the awesome maps we know and love. It was fans and specific map-makers. If you wanna play on awesome maps, play the iCCup maps, they are approximately 100 times better than any Blizzard map, short of Shakuras (only 50 times better) but sadly Shakuras is gone until they fix that silly invisible building glitch...
Soon enough the GSL will make their own maps and then we will see truly epic 6 base games, or at least I hope so.
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On December 24 2010 23:46 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote:
I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not. I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it. If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon.
Pretty sure progamers have teams, practice houses, and/or giant friends lists of high level players eager to play with them on whatever map.
Besides, the Iccup maps are better, there's no reason not to use them.
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Blizzard has said making new, balanced maps is not something they are overly concerned about (Kennegit mentioned this one of the state of the games) and implementing user made maps is something which most tournament organizers see as detrimental to the competitiveness of their tournament. It looks like we have to get used to this pool one way or another.
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Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo. Maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome.
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On December 25 2010 04:41 LittleeD wrote:
Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome.
The difference is War3 had a lot of random elements that changed the way things played. Having a map where you see the same strats on 100% of the time is bad for competition. New maps promote new strategies which spice up the game. I don't see how knowing 100% of what will happen is a good thing.
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After playing the ICCUP maps, games on Blizzard maps feel 100 times more gimmicky. 
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On December 25 2010 04:24 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 23:46 neobowman wrote:On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote:
I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not. I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it. If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon. Pretty sure progamers have teams, practice houses, and/or giant friends lists of high level players eager to play with them on whatever map. Besides, the Iccup maps are better, there's no reason not to use them.
No, you are wrong. A lot of progamers train on the ladder (see IdrA, he almost only do that). Practice houses is not given to all the players and it would only make it harder to qualify for GSL if you can't train for those maps.
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EPT
