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I think everyone is familiar with the SC1 way of playing maps. If not, it's relatively simple to explain. The Korean tournaments (OSL, MSL and Proleague) rotated maps between seasons. Generally, both the MSL and OSL would take a few of the proleague maps, as well as using their own individual maps for the season. On iCCup, where all the non-pros played, the maps that were being used at the time by the pros would be used by the non-pros, because one, amatuers want to be like pros, and two, they would be able to find good recent strategies only on the maps that were being used in the competitive circuit. With this method, the maps remain fresh and fun to play.
In SC2, the mappool remains mostly static. I've heard that the Warcraft III mappool has literally never changed from day 1. Well now I guess I know what they feel like. Currently, not only are the maps BAD, but they're boring to play because they're the only maps we can to play.
I would obviously prefer some Korean mapmakers or even better, the iCCup mappers to be able to get their maps in the circuit. In the end, every mapper's goal, including myself, wants his/her map to be played in the competitive circuit. For foreign Brood War mappers, this was pretty impossible. You can find hundreds of great maps on a site like broodwarmaps.net, but you'll never see any made by a user, played on the pro level. Even if the map was made an iCCup map, no one played it because no pros played on them.
Nonetheless, I wouldn't mind too much if Blizzard used their own maps. Ok, actually, I would mind a lot. But it's still better than keeping a static map pool like it is right now. Strategies are so static and boring to use over and over again. There's no diversity. Because the game is so young, the strategies are still changing (some of which has to do with the balance patches, but those are finishing off I believe), but it'll settle down soon enough. Only with new maps does everything keep fresh.
For an example, a lot of people HATE playing on Python in SC1. It's been in use for so long and people still make games on it, but a number of people avoid it altogether if possible. The map itself is amazing, but a million games on the same map will get dull.
There are two problems with the current system. One, Blizzard doesn't change their mappool. Two, the only way to get consistent practice on tournament maps is the ladder. Thus, tournaments choose only the ladder maps when deciding the mappools, since pros will rage at the tournament organizers if they do not. There's a few tiny exceptions but all of the major tournaments like MLG, GSL, and all of them that are noteworthy, never use any map outside the ladder maps.
Honestly, it all comes down to Blizzard not doing the simple thing, and changing the ladder map pool. They say maps are not their concern right now and I think that's stupid. Balance is more or less done. Minor imbalances could form later, and I know they're getting a ton of features in for b.net 2.0, but in Brood War, maps were EVERYTHING. Pretty much the only thing that changed the gameplay were maps, and on ocassion, players like Bisu. Delaying a new balance change or a new feature for b.net for a day won't be much, and while I don't know much about making a game, I'm pretty sure it doesn't take that long to change the map pool.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
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I think they'll care soon, because blizzard isn't some company that will show no interest in players or communities requests. I trust 'em (for making steppes bigger :D, j/k)
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post
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On December 24 2010 06:43 eksert wrote: I think they'll care soon, because blizzard isn't some company that will show no interest in players or communities requests. I trust 'em (for making steppes bigger :D, j/k)
Tell that to WC3 players who begged for new maps for years.
To be honest, "Blizzard cares" seems almost as naive (for the lack of a better word) as "Arbeit match frei" to me. The WC3 BNet/ladder is a shithole specifically because blizzard does not care. Not even going to get into the whole "suing companies that made StarCraft big in Korea" bullshit. T____T
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On December 24 2010 06:44 Chriamon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post Yes and no. It's the reason for all of the complaints listed in the OP, but I think the OP believes that Blizzard will do something eventually. I mean we're still waiting for Shakuras to be re-added to the map pool.... The only way anything will ever happen is if the community takes it upon itself to make a change, which is really really difficult. But there really isn't any other way you're going to see a healthy rotation of maps. Blizzard are just leaving it up to the community to figure it out.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. winner winner chicken dinner, bliz's philosophy is as follows--make as much profit with the least investment it works pretty well for them look at wow a game that hasn't changed since day1 (in terms of skill level) every "boss" is a culmination of old bosses with new textures throw on an "expansion" and its a "brand new game"~ custom map creators are the only way tournaments and such can be fair, however, the average player who isn't in a clan/team won't be able to practice on said maps, therefore, lowering the number of up-and-coming gamers
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I think there could definitely be more rotation, but we have seen some new maps pop in / pop out in the time since Phase 1 beta. Xel'Naga and DQ were new with one patch, same with Jungle and Shakuras, remember incineration zone? I think part of the problem is that some of the current maps are so broken for certain matchups that they're SOOOO consistantly thumbs downed and you get the same 3 maps in ever Bo3. Why would a zerg play on DQ or SoW if they didn't absolutely have to? I really think that blizzard should have a maps contest. After patch 1.2, switch the PTR pool to havea list of the 10 best maps by their judgement submitted, then see which ones people thumb down, bring in those maps for a try, rinse, and repeat.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. What do you mean? I remember David Kim talking at Blizzcon saying that they were aiming for a variety of maps that cover all sorts of play, macro, rush maps, and those in between. And I recall things being said about not wanting the maps in the ladder to be too technical so everyone can enjoy them
I think they care, they are just kind of clueless and always have been, in every one of their RTS games, when it comes to maps.
The map situation definitely ruins SC2 for me though. I envision a best case scenario for the future where GSL has their own map pool and we all find games via chat and we don't have a ladder to enjoy because the maps are still the same assortment of garbage we've always had. Though this time there will never be a gamei or pgtour or iccup
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Maybe should start playing Iccup maps again. I know there are official iccup maps available on the custom games. I've played some, shit was cash. Mostly bigger, balanced and funner maps than Blizzmaps. Just saying.
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I heard that they need to balance small maps to get to the bigger ones.
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Oh god python was getting on my nerves. If blizzard are too lazy, y cant they just use the iccup maps? i havent seen a single iccup map that isnt as terrible as the current maps (maybe with the exception of shakuras) .
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Since release they removed kulas and desert oasis and moved in xel'naga, shakuras, and jungle basin. Sure it's not as good of a solution as adding ICCup maps but it sure is a lot different than war3 and isn't even comparable. Maps, in general, are also seeing a more favorable trend. Out of the eight starting maps or so only one was deemed "good" by most players - Metalopolis. Two more "good" maps were added post-release with xel'naga and shakuras. Some folks enjoy jungle but others do not -- at least it is a little more of a unique map (may have protoss warp-in-madness bias here).
The game has only been out a few months, so at the current rate they're tossing one out every month or two which is ok. Ideally I think it should be about two a month, which means the average map would have about a four month stint. (No reason to force good maps off the list though)
Too much doom and gloom imo. The best solution is obviously user made maps, but the map pool is hardly 100% forgotten about as mentioned by the war3 players.
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ill guess with new patch 1.2 we might be seeing newly added maps at least to the ladder pool, even tho those maps might not be listed as ladder maps on ptr ?
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I suggest employing the expertise of fairfax mcclandlish, the creator of the war3 map twisted meadows, my vote for the greatest RTS terrain ever created by man. really tho they should do something like this, two rivers and twisted are some of my favorites, take maps from the community blizz, it invigorated war3 and will do so for SC.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/maps/mapcontest.shtml
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On December 24 2010 06:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. What do you mean? I remember David Kim talking at Blizzcon saying that they were aiming for a variety of maps that cover all sorts of play, macro, rush maps, and those in between. And I recall things being said about not wanting the maps in the ladder to be too technical so everyone can enjoy them I would like to point out that David Kim also said that the ladder maps were not actually meant to be used in tournaments because of said features, and that Tournament Organizers should create their own maps to be used in the tournaments.
Due to obvious reasons though, this is not possible how Blizzard imagines it, since a lot of practicing is done on the ladder and there is no organisation on top of thing that decides what maps are to be played. That is, if they actually thought about it, and didn't just want to pass on the work of creating balanced and good maps because they are too lazy/busy, and also only if David Kim didn't talk for himself and how he would like things to be, as opposed to talking for Blizzard.
I really hope we wont be stuck with the same old (partially terrible) maps. That would really hurt SC2 as a competitive game.
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Actually plexa, the problem is lack of good support for hosting custom games like broodwar had. You could actually host lobbies back then, now maps get buried in the list and no one ever plays custom maps and makes it near impossible for the community to have a healthy map rotation.
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Blizzard should allow major tournaments (GSL, MLG) to host seperate ladders on BNET2 where they get to decide the mappool. Players could then choose to play their ladder matches on the ladder they choose, so they are able to practice with the right mappool using the existing ladder system.
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its just a matter of time before koreans will start get some maps popular and played in custom games and added by big korean events like gsl, and from there they will get added into the foreigner scene and then foreigners will start practicing on them
i doubt all the progamers will stick to this blizzard ladder forever as their main source of practice
personally im really sick of the blizzard maps and i think they were terrible since day1. im not saying they should make all maps like sc1 im just saying if they tweaked the current maps they could become alot better
and i hope they start frequently changing ladder maps. i just assumed they kept same maps for all this time just so they could balance it easier but im starting to loose faith that blizzard will care enough to let the ladder map pool stay fresh
On December 24 2010 07:46 DizzyDrone wrote: Blizzard should allow major tournaments (GSL, MLG) to host seperate ladders on the blizzard servers where they get to decide the mappool. Players could then choose to play their ladder matches on the ladder they choose, so they are able to practice on the maps for the tournament they will be attending. yes its the best way really. blizzard should make it possible for others to make their own "ladder server" so blizzard dont have to keep up with the gsl mlg map pools at same time gsl mlg are not forced to play the blizzard maps
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On December 24 2010 07:46 MorroW wrote: yes its the best way really. blizzard should make it possible for others to make their own "ladder server" so blizzard dont have to keep up with the gsl mlg map pools at same time gsl mlg are not forced to play the blizzard maps
i would love if that happened
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On December 24 2010 06:59 k43r wrote: I heard that they need to balance small maps to get to the bigger ones. I'm not saying this is your logic, but this is retarded logic. The size IS the balance in this case.
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I want to see iccup maps on ladder. They look really fun to play.
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On December 24 2010 06:46 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:44 Chriamon wrote:On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post Yes and no. It's the reason for all of the complaints listed in the OP, but I think the OP believes that Blizzard will do something eventually. I mean we're still waiting for Shakuras to be re-added to the map pool.... The only way anything will ever happen is if the community takes it upon itself to make a change, which is really really difficult. But there really isn't any other way you're going to see a healthy rotation of maps. Blizzard are just leaving it up to the community to figure it out.
I'm not sure I understand. How exactly CAN the community do anything? I mean, we HAVE done something, there are tons of great maps out there.
In terms of getting them into the map pool, thats entirely on Blizzard, we have no control over that. So how exactly is Blizzard expecting us to "figure it out"?
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Blizzard probably isn't going to switch up the map pool for a year, if ever, until HoTS is released. Until then they're happy that they've made a lot of money and still have two more games to sell you. With Activision at the reigns i wouldn't be surprised to see a $20 map pack come out at some point. Or maybe a $25 "Balance pack" that actually makes the game fun and competitive?
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Hasn't blizzard said that they're doing a ladder reset in January? My expectation would be for blizzard to change the map pool then. They're going to set up a 'season' system, right? So it would be natural for them to switch up the maps for each season. Edit: and to not mess with the maps between seasons.
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What bugs me the most is that they CAN make good maps. Take some 2v2 maps, they are great. Big maps, but not as huge as Oasis. Expansions everywhere, but not Shakuras-like where you can expand like no-problem. By tweaking them a bit, I think all the 2v2 maps would end up beeing really good for the ladder.
Just my thought.
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Regardless of what Blizzard does, I think the best thing we can do as a community is show that we support independent map developers. The GSL will always be forced to use the Blizzard map pool, but there's no reason why other tournament organisers can't start substituting ICCUP maps for some of the more imbalanced Blizzard ones.
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On December 24 2010 09:04 Subversion wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:46 Plexa wrote:On December 24 2010 06:44 Chriamon wrote:On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. wait, did you post a tl;dr for him? because thats pretty much what I got out of OP's post Yes and no. It's the reason for all of the complaints listed in the OP, but I think the OP believes that Blizzard will do something eventually. I mean we're still waiting for Shakuras to be re-added to the map pool.... The only way anything will ever happen is if the community takes it upon itself to make a change, which is really really difficult. But there really isn't any other way you're going to see a healthy rotation of maps. Blizzard are just leaving it up to the community to figure it out. I'm not sure I understand. How exactly CAN the community do anything? I mean, we HAVE done something, there are tons of great maps out there. In terms of getting them into the map pool, thats entirely on Blizzard, we have no control over that. So how exactly is Blizzard expecting us to "figure it out"? Whine, whine and whine until tournament organizers start using proper maps designed for tournament play. The maps will spread from there via pro players to other tournaments, practice partners and casuals with an interest in playing real Starcraft. Chat channels are a decent enough tool for enabling this process. If you meant the ladder map pool then no, that thing is basically dead. Blizzard will never be able to keep up.
We should take every chance we get when leaving feedback regarding tournaments to whine about bad and/or imbalanced maps like SoW, DQ, JB, BS and even close position Metalopolis.
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Didn't MLG_Lee talk about *maybe* using custom maps for the MLG events at some vague point in the future?
I feel like if MLG started using more and more ICCup maps, things could take a different turn. MLG already has their own map pool for Halo, where they tweaked all of Bungie's terrible ideas for competitive gameplay. That caused a huge shift for competitive Halo towards the redesigned MLG maps. They should think about maybe hiring the ICCup guys to do maps for them or something.
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hm at some point people will win over their lazyness and start doing things on their own. So i don't really worry about it that much. Though the build in multiplayer support became better, so its harder for people to integrate their own stuffies, since people are lazy to switch from a running system even if they complain. Also companys take more care over their products, to prevent to much 3rd party stuff. So sc2 could really well end up like wc3 .
Will take some high donated tourneys that just force their maps. So pros will start to train these maps. As long its more rentable to play the blizzard maps, they will evade to train other maps. And even if the map is good the play on the map will not look to good and the map will be forgotton really fast. (If prize money is low)
And since it sounds like blizzard is working close together with gomtv, well ^^ ...
All it needs are people that can mobilize the masses hehe.
PS: merry christmas ! ^^
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Simple solution(s): PTR where user maps are tested. Varied map pool depending on league. Higher leagues have more maps, because you don't need to keep it simple as the players are better. Bronze has ~9 maps like now. Silver/Gold maybe have one or two more, Plat/Gold maybe some more, Diamond has more maps too. These maps are derived from the user maps/PTR testing to check for balance/etc.
That way the lower level players don't get overwhelmed, maps don't get randomly thrown in, and higher level players have a bigger and hopefully more varied map pool. Blizzard (IIRC) already owns all the rights to your map anyway when you upload it.
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Yeah, They really need to rotate maps every 3 (or less)months or so, it will give tournaments more options for their tournaments and allow them to pick and choose their maps balance wise.
Their current "Add any whenever, take any out some randomly, but never rotate maps" mind set is just awful.
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I think MAYBE we need to stop playing ladder and simply start playing on ICCUP maps. Yeah, auto-matchmaking is awesome, but if it means boring maps that i don't like then I'd gladly give it up and play custom games. ICCUP and bw ramake maps make me drewl.
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We are hostages of the Blizzard mapmakers, there is nothing we can do but hope GSL adms notice a change must be made.
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With chat channels coming out, I think the community will have an easier time playing on custom maps.
Now, even finding a game on a custom map is hard because of the popularity system. When chat channels come out, I'm sure there will be a channel like "Custom Melee" to find games with friends.
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I think the current map pool is rubbish and is one reason that SC2 is less interesting to watch and easier to play. Look at blistering sands, then look at fighting spirit, blistering sands' ground distance from base to base was still smaller than fighting spirit. The ground distances of SC2 maps are all steppes of war compared to SC1, this leads to stronger 1 base play, stronger all ins, stronger proxies, basically stronger gimmicks. Not only are gimmicks buffed by the tiny size of the maps, but mid and late game are all made easier because each expansion progression has a direct path on every map, and expansions are too close to each other. This means 1. no REAL multi pronged attacks, 2. no multi tasking from the players, 3. expansions are less strategic (think about expansions in SC1, you could take an expansion far from your forces and their forces, and when your opponent tried to attack it, you could counter attack) and 4. AOE and splash units are severely buffed because a large amount of forces can't move anywhere without being clumped up (metalopolis comes to mind)
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AGREED.
Need good maps for the love of Flash.
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Since Blizzard is associated with the GSL, since the GSL makes a lot of money, and finally since the GSL is going to need new maps to satisfy the pro-games and the viewers, new maps will be made. Believe it or not the Starcraft 2 pro-scene is profitable.
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On December 24 2010 09:48 pzea469 wrote: I think MAYBE we need to stop playing ladder and simply start playing on ICCUP maps. Yeah, auto-matchmaking is awesome, but if it means boring maps that i don't like then I'd gladly give it up and play custom games. ICCUP and bw ramake maps make me drewl.
Problem is that there are no game names and theres no way to know if theres a map opening. For example, if you want to play FS, you will join and then wait forever. No one will know that you are waiting. Also, since theres no game name, D/1000 diamond player may join when you are B-/3000 diamond or something...
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Australia8532 Posts
The map saga has been argued since day one.. Blizzard controls the map pool with their seemingly substandard map making team; imo it is to maintain some form of control over a recently released game - which is understandable.. The amount of uproar there has been around the map system has definately been heard by blizzard; it was reinforced when GSL removed the veto system and forced players to compete on subpar maps for the occassion. These things take time though - starcraft 2 is one Blizzards babies and they don't want to give up to much to soon; this is i believe understandable.. Yes i want iCCup map makers; yes i want the community involved in deciding what works best but YES i want Blizzard to feel comfortable to endorse these actions, not through some coup.
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I just got dropped 3 times from battle.net in games I was winning so I'm going to rage a bit.
God I fucking hate blizzard's iron grip on match making. They are going to ruin this game like they did war3 by not allowing some third party who gives a shit to control the map pool. Has anyone confronted them on this? I can't recall any interviews where people asked in a hard nosed way why this map pool is so static. Does blizzard even realize how crappy this is for the players?
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Canada13372 Posts
On December 24 2010 11:31 onmach wrote: I just got dropped 3 times from battle.net in games I was winning so I'm going to rage a bit.
God I fucking hate blizzard's iron grip on match making. They are going to ruin this game like they did war3 by not allowing some third party who gives a shit to control the map pool. Has anyone confronted them on this? I can't recall any interviews where people asked in a hard nosed way why this map pool is so static. Does blizzard even realize how crappy this is for the players?
I just want to say that I think we should let the game be out longer than 6 months of retail release to truly make any statements or become frustrated with regards to the map pool. For all we know the map pool may change with the following ladder season after all.
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I have a bad feeling that Blizzard is waiting until the release of the Map Marketplace (Q2 2011) before they get serious about improving the map pool. It seems like people will be so desperate for new maps at that point that it could make Blizzard (and the map makers) some serious profit.
I really hope I'm wrong, but this is Kotick.
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On December 24 2010 06:49 majestouch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. winner winner chicken dinner, bliz's philosophy is as follows--make as much profit with the least investment it works pretty well for them look at wow a game that hasn't changed since day1 (in terms of skill level) every "boss" is a culmination of old bosses with new textures throw on an "expansion" and its a "brand new game"~ custom map creators are the only way tournaments and such can be fair, however, the average player who isn't in a clan/team won't be able to practice on said maps, therefore, lowering the number of up-and-coming gamers
you apparently don't know one single thing about the diversity of WoW endgame content. i suspect you played in the molten core days where, yes, that one instance was fairly repetitive. guess what, MC was the first real endgame raiding content ever released. I've played with some of the best guilds in the game, and experienced each instance when it was new content, so i can actually authoritatively enlighten your misconceptions. BWL was extremely fun, nothing like MC, and at least twice as challenging. then you jump to AQ40, one of the most challenging instances in the history of the game (relative to its time) and, after that, the elite few good enough to make it that far tried their hands on Naxx40, the hardest instance ever released. not to mention the small, yet extremely fun, 20man instances that each had their own distinct feel.
oh yeah, then there were three expansions after that. [edit]of course let us not forget that endgame raiding is only one of the countless things to do in WoW, there being so much more to the game than just a conglomeration of bosses to kill.[edit]
OF COURSE SOME BOSSES ARE GUNNA BE SOMEWHAT SIMILAR TO PAST BOSSES. you have classes that attack, classes that heal, and classes that tank. you're usually gunna end up killing a bunch of bosses. welcome to RPGs. it's like you expect zealots to suddenly be able to attack air after a few weeks of their boring, monotonous "only attack ground" mechanic. maybe sc2 should evolve into a First Person Shooter after a while? since we apparently want every single facet of the game to constantly change each second, into something more exciting, challenging and grandiose.
long story short, WoW is an incredible game, both artistically and otherwise. it's fun, diverse, challenging at times (and if you think otherwise, you never cleared pre-nerf sunwell) and satisfying: everything a game requires. but don't let 12million players fool you, best to stay away (since you'd obviously end up playing a Human Paladin).
your ignorant "LOL i'll jump on the 'hate on WoW' bandwagon cause i can't think for myself" clump of run-on text gives me great assurance that your father is also your brother.
+ Show Spoiler +and, yes, we all pray for the day that the current map pool is cleared and replaced with professionally created and balanced maps. please give shakuras plateau back.
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On December 24 2010 10:48 Steel wrote: Since Blizzard is associated with the GSL, since the GSL makes a lot of money, and finally since the GSL is going to need new maps to satisfy the pro-games and the viewers, new maps will be made. Believe it or not the Starcraft 2 pro-scene is profitable. Well if GSL changes maps before the ladder maps are changed, the pros will rage because they can't practice easily. Read post.
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On December 24 2010 13:19 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:48 Steel wrote: Since Blizzard is associated with the GSL, since the GSL makes a lot of money, and finally since the GSL is going to need new maps to satisfy the pro-games and the viewers, new maps will be made. Believe it or not the Starcraft 2 pro-scene is profitable. Well if GSL changes maps before the ladder maps are changed, the pros will rage because they can't practice easily. Read post. pretty sure he's saying that BLIZZARD will present new maps for GOM, meaning that the ladder maps will also be changed. obviously if the GSL is using certain maps, those maps need to be in the ladder rotation, and Blizzard doesn't have down's syndrome (despite what most people apparently believe and yet spend their every moment of free time glued to Blizzard games).
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Blizzard? This is the reason why we don't want eSport companies related with Blizzard, they're under Blizzard's power. We don't want Blizzard maps, we want iCCup maps. GomTV just hosts the games, and Blizzard decides the map pool. At least 2 maps every month would be decent, but keep solid maps like LT and Metalopolis would be nice, as they are the best maps for newbies in SC2.
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The Koreans will make some new maps for GSL, which will be practiced in great detail by the teams over there. Blizzard will see the quality of these maps and adapt them into the ladder rotation. It's that simple.
There's no reason for Blizzard to adopt ICCUP maps when ICCUP is so small time, at least internationally. And seeing as the NA scene isn't the biggest SC2 scene, it only stands to reason that the new maps will be done with Korea.
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eventually someone smart enough will get angry enough with Blizz servers and well get private servers again aka The abyss 2.0
Until that day all we have is Blizz saying "maps aren't out job, why would you expect us to do anything with the maps. Just because we have complete control over the ladder map pool for every SC2 server. Doesn't mean its our responsibility to change the maps ever!"
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10387 Posts
On December 24 2010 13:19 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:48 Steel wrote: Since Blizzard is associated with the GSL, since the GSL makes a lot of money, and finally since the GSL is going to need new maps to satisfy the pro-games and the viewers, new maps will be made. Believe it or not the Starcraft 2 pro-scene is profitable. Well if GSL changes maps before the ladder maps are changed, the pros will rage because they can't practice easily. Read post. fuck the rage, do it anyways. GSL players have their own proteams/clans to practice with anyways
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I fully disagree with you about balance being pretty much finished. There will be two expansion packs, and those will completely change the game, more likely than not.
It would be like SC1 players saying that balancing the game was pretty much finished before BW came out. And we have two expansions to get through (though they will most likely not be as revolutionary as BW was to SC...how can you compete with the lurker and DT?)
It will take YEARS before this game is done balancing. We are essentially playing a beta right now when thinking of the finished SC2 project. This is the reason I think way too many people are complaining way too much right now about balance
Now, for your points about maps, I pretty much agree. I think map rotation is critical to the long-term enjoyment of the game. I really do not have a problem with the current maps. I'm not one of these map-ragers that are so common. However, I don't want to play these maps forever. Maybe switching out 25% of the maps every 4 months, or one map every month, or anything.
However, I'm not extremely optimistic. BW was only the way it was because of the third-party leagues. WC3 is an example of their attitide toward the ladder maps. Perhaps they will be different with SC2 (and we can only hope they are) and listen to the community about maps), but I'm not too confidant.
but I am honestly not optimistic. In BW, it only happened because of the third-party ladders. You can look at WC3 as an example of Blizzard's feelings.
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I like that all the map's play differently. It means in a BO7 different skills win different maps and that means you need to be well rounded. I've had a look at some of the Iccup maps, quite like that Inferno one (name escapes me.) Maybe changing 1 or 2 every other month or so would keep it fresh, you don't want a complete overhaul of the pool confusing everyone. Slow gradual changes and additions. That being said.. delta quadrant being missing from the game files wouldn't upset me very much.
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On December 24 2010 13:19 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 10:48 Steel wrote: Since Blizzard is associated with the GSL, since the GSL makes a lot of money, and finally since the GSL is going to need new maps to satisfy the pro-games and the viewers, new maps will be made. Believe it or not the Starcraft 2 pro-scene is profitable. Well if GSL changes maps before the ladder maps are changed, the pros will rage because they can't practice easily. Read post. Are you trying to say that pros practice for GSL on ladder, not in custom games with their teammates? Pretty positive you are wrong.
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Just let blizzard do their thing. New maps will eventually come.
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The community just has to do it. Its amazing that pros say that just using new maps is bad because they're not on the ladder. But then they say just laddering and not doing any custom games is bad practice.
Its weird to feel how blizzard is driving this game into the ground
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When the ladder resets, I think that Blizzard will swap some things around in that mappool. I can't believe that they will keep it like wc3 and let us play the same maps for 10 years.
Every day there should be 1 different map in the pool. And there should be somewhere close to 20 maps to start with. The rotation should be random but there should be a healthy mix of 2-3 and 4-player maps.
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it's quite funny because
blizzard says: we want tournament organizators to pick their own maps (yes they said that at blizzcon) tournament organizators say: we can't use custom maps because they are not on ladder and people can't practise them (which is a terrible excuse in my oppinion)
blizzard has terrible custom map system based on popularity but i believe if custom maps were introduced in tournaments people would actually like to play them, AND DON"T FORGET CHAT CHANNELS ARE COMING, which is probably the thing we were waiting for and people of all skill levels can actually arrange these custom games.
i say tournament organizators need to stop their fucking excuses and add custom maps (iccup team would be glad to help im sure). don't go the "blizzard will eventually introduce new maps" because it's rubbish, look at wc3, and even if they do they'd be rubbish anyway.
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The major issue I have with sc2 is indeed the mappool rotation (or the lack of it). Blizzard doesnt realise the importance of the ladder in practice, if they want new map added in tournament they need to change the way they see the ladder. They need to introduce new maps in addition to some old one and to take advices from good mapmakers. Unfortunately it seems like they don't value the importance of maps enough.
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On December 24 2010 09:04 ghermination wrote: Blizzard probably isn't going to switch up the map pool for a year, if ever, until HoTS is released. Until then they're happy that they've made a lot of money and still have two more games to sell you. With Activision at the reigns i wouldn't be surprised to see a $20 map pack come out at some point. Or maybe a $25 "Balance pack" that actually makes the game fun and competitive?
hahaha, funny cause it's true anyone? I'd give it a year untill they start selling portrait/decal/color packs
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On December 24 2010 08:55 SmoKim wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 07:46 MorroW wrote: yes its the best way really. blizzard should make it possible for others to make their own "ladder server" so blizzard dont have to keep up with the gsl mlg map pools at same time gsl mlg are not forced to play the blizzard maps i would love if that happened
Never, ever going to happen. Not in a million years, so long as activision still has a clamp tight on blizzard's balls (not that I think it would probably happen even if Blizzard was independent from activision still...)
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I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot.
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the current map situation seems to be a pretty big upset throughout the whole sc2 community... i personally don't think it's that bad.
but what i would almost bet on is, that with the start of the new ladder season they will bring up new maps. and with that, everytime the ladder gets resetet the maps will rotate or change. i mean sure, blizzard is not really reacting fast in certain things but i mean sc2 is how old? half a year?
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to all of you who think blizzard will bring new maps, that is not the problem. the problem is that blizzard maps are NOT good. i couldn't care less if we had another steppes in the mappool next season. we need much better maps.
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On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote: I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot.
GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time).
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On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote: I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time).
wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps.
I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not.
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On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote: I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not.
I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it.
If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon.
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They should just make a separate map pool for people in Grand Master League, and implement GSL Map Maker Maps into it.
That way, you can let pros have their ladder practice on new good maps for the GSL (and hopefully other tournaments).
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On December 24 2010 10:51 ReketSomething wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 09:48 pzea469 wrote: I think MAYBE we need to stop playing ladder and simply start playing on ICCUP maps. Yeah, auto-matchmaking is awesome, but if it means boring maps that i don't like then I'd gladly give it up and play custom games. ICCUP and bw ramake maps make me drewl. Problem is that there are no game names and theres no way to know if theres a map opening. For example, if you want to play FS, you will join and then wait forever. No one will know that you are waiting. Also, since theres no game name, D/1000 diamond player may join when you are B-/3000 diamond or something...
Yeah true, without being able to name the game its tough. Maybe with chat channels something can get started...
More whining from the community is needed though, like we should have all the small tournaments and things like the TSL open be with the ICCUP maps and some bw remake maps maybe.
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We need better maps + the option to create ladder games instead of just automatic matchmaking (yes its nice to find games fast) but sux if you want to practice a certain mu or a certain map and you dont have any friends online or friends of the right skill.
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Yeah....since everyone cares so much about points, this is what I say Blizzard does...
They take maps from a certain 3rd party organization that runs some type of server back in BW. They try to emulate those maps and recreate them in the SC2 universe, and balance them based upon the new units in the game.
After they release these maps, they should have this concept called "maps of the week", where if you play on these maps, you get more points. You see, this forces players then to vote down other maps and play on these so-called "maps of the week", because everyone wants more points to look better on ladder.
After that, you cycle the maps every week, and then you end the season after oh....13-15 weeks and you reset everyone's stats.
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On December 24 2010 23:54 Tump wrote: They should just make a separate map pool for people in Grand Master League, and implement GSL Map Maker Maps into it.
That way, you can let pros have their ladder practice on new good maps for the GSL (and hopefully other tournaments). Not a good approach imo, pros tend to train via customgames and it sucks for the average player to watch if he doesn't know the maps, so there would be no real benefit by this solution.
You could extend the mappool for all players with new custommaps and give players more vetoes, that way you can have the diversified experience Blizzard wants for its customers and give aspiring players/pros the chance to play maps used in tournaments. Tournaments should use some/all of the laddermaps, and every new ladderseason should include a new mappool consisting of good old maps and new maps, and everyone will be happy. Except for Idra, because he plays Zerg :p
€ This would mean that Blizzard has to coordinate the creation of new maps, but they did a great job with that in WC3, so it shouldn't be a problem.
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Sorry for the dumb question, but why don't tournaments advertise and set up new maps again? The vast majority of players are crying out for them, pros would have to appreciate that (and would appreciate new maps for sure, + Show Spoiler +whether they are given the time to practice on them or not. ) ..and more importantly so should decision makers at gsl or mlg (if they want viewers to drool over the next upcoming event) ... assuredly for mid to small size tourneys and.. in fact, for all of them... this is a good marketing move! We are only getting the occasional "showmatch" showcasing new community maps on (more or less) popular casting platforms... and hearing how the map situation sucks... blizz is blizz and will only do anything for blizz (they got us the game: job done!). So laddering cannot be considered as a valid training platform IF you want to introduce NEW maps for tourneys (other than blizz's ladder tourney).
Alternate tourneys decision makers could use a petition or something to help them jump the cliff... they should already have had polls going (at least one for pro rated and one for everyone).. Introducing new maps on top of blizz's ladder for their tourney + Show Spoiler +(one should never thumbs down anything!, we need more, never less and we should try to get blizz to get that..., I liked Shakuras or even Incineration... Incineration only once in a while, granted) , Tournaments veto results would serve a a good barometer and the ball would be rolling which is the prime problem right now: the ball has not been rolled yet. such map additions (and its been said over and over and over) should be done with a rhythm to them... and said "good" rhythm is the hardest part to establish for it to benefit everyone... I guess these guys need the balls to start... maybe fail (with new maps being hated as much as blizzs' for one), but I doubt it... the games should be awesome... and viewer count would grow even faster..
Personally I feel all the reasons (like "pros can't get decent practice on custom") are bull...t waste of time.. because I rather worry about how the lag on bigger maps would be in tourneys (or other such things), which might be the reasons blizz is doing it the way they are... then again, like michael jackson did it with "Bad", blizz might just be making us wait just to inflate expectations and future sales...
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I feel it would be some work, but possible to create an in-house ladder system. Meaning, its all played as custom games, on specific maps. Lets take all the iccup maps for instance. There would be 10 maps total in a map rotation (because of the map publish limit in bnet), and then players would go to a website and sign up for the ladder, their games, from then on, are parsed when ever they meet someone else "on the ladder".
This would basically be a website-tracker type deal that keeps its own ladder rankings, based on the players who sign up for it. For any one who wants to practice on a map in the pool,, then just join a different map name but the same map. Like, "iCCup Ladder" and "iCCup Practice"
Its already possible because of the way sc2ranks works. Or perhaps even have a launcher type deal that just gets the replays and gets the info from them, and sends that to a database.
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On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool.
Nail. Head. Hit.
But in reality, it wasn't Blizzard who made the awesome maps we know and love. It was fans and specific map-makers. If you wanna play on awesome maps, play the iCCup maps, they are approximately 100 times better than any Blizzard map, short of Shakuras (only 50 times better) but sadly Shakuras is gone until they fix that silly invisible building glitch...
Soon enough the GSL will make their own maps and then we will see truly epic 6 base games, or at least I hope so.
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On December 24 2010 23:46 neobowman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote: I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not. I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it. If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon.
Pretty sure progamers have teams, practice houses, and/or giant friends lists of high level players eager to play with them on whatever map.
Besides, the Iccup maps are better, there's no reason not to use them.
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Blizzard has said making new, balanced maps is not something they are overly concerned about (Kennegit mentioned this one of the state of the games) and implementing user made maps is something which most tournament organizers see as detrimental to the competitiveness of their tournament. It looks like we have to get used to this pool one way or another.
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Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo. Maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome.
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On December 25 2010 04:41 LittleeD wrote: Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome.
The difference is War3 had a lot of random elements that changed the way things played. Having a map where you see the same strats on 100% of the time is bad for competition. New maps promote new strategies which spice up the game. I don't see how knowing 100% of what will happen is a good thing.
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After playing the ICCUP maps, games on Blizzard maps feel 100 times more gimmicky.
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On December 25 2010 04:24 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 23:46 neobowman wrote:On December 24 2010 21:06 Ragoo wrote:On December 24 2010 20:37 Roggay wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 24 2010 19:39 ParasitJonte wrote: I've been wanting to make a post here asking why GOM doesn't just hire some mapmakers to make new maps for each season. I'm sure there's plenty of talented, relatively cheap labour available.
They would be publicly available so everybody could play and practice on them. So why won't GOM do this? I mean, the community knows people who work there; Artosis and Tasteless. Why not get them to make the case for new maps?
I don't care about blizzard too much. If they want to destroy their own ladder then so be it. If GOM released maps I'm sure other tournys would pick them up and everything would be fine. So why do I keep not seing news posts about this being in the making?
Can anybody explain that to me. It bothers me a lot. GOM is directly related to Blizzard, and that itself is enough for them to use Blizzard's mappool imo. That and the fact that the players train on the ladder, not on some custom maps (because its hard for players not in a team to find custom practice games all the time). wrong imo, Blizzard said they just want to have a variety of maps for the ladder but these maps are not necessarily for tournaments and they want the tournaments to use their own maps. Also with the new system for GSL, at least all the Code S and Code A players should be on a team and/or have practice partners, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem for them. Because of this I think GOM is in the best position to use custom maps. I personally don't understand why tournaments that have a map veto system don't switch one or two maps at least. Wouldn't harm anyone , cause if you'd kick out Steppes of War and instead add iCCup Sungsu Crossing for example that doesn't make much of a difference most of the time, cause normally everyone vetoes Steppes anyway, so now they have to veto one shitty map less and therefore can decide whether they want to veto Sungsu Crossing (cause they don't know it) or not. I think a lot of people are missing the point on why the tournaments aren't changing the maps. It's because the PROGAMERS need an easy way to practice whenever and wherever, so searching on the ladder is the best way to go. If they suddenly have to practice a non-ladder map, they'd have to go through the entire process of searching for someone to play, and making sure that they want to play that map too. I personally don't think it's that big of a deal but pros definitely don't like it. If I were organizing GSL, sure, I'd tell the players to suck it up and play on the new maps. Sadly, I'm not, and it seems that the maps won't change anytime soon. Pretty sure progamers have teams, practice houses, and/or giant friends lists of high level players eager to play with them on whatever map. Besides, the Iccup maps are better, there's no reason not to use them.
No, you are wrong. A lot of progamers train on the ladder (see IdrA, he almost only do that). Practice houses is not given to all the players and it would only make it harder to qualify for GSL if you can't train for those maps.
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They just need a good "pro" mappool at the highest tier of ladder with rotation, problem solved, lower leagues can play the simpler maps.
Thing is tourneys can't switch without loads of problems and risk of alienating anyone not on a really established team.
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On December 24 2010 06:52 floor exercise wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 06:39 Plexa wrote: Actually the problem is Blizzard doesn't care about a healthy rotation of the map pool. What do you mean? I remember David Kim talking at Blizzcon saying that they were aiming for a variety of maps that cover all sorts of play, macro, rush maps, and those in between. And I recall things being said about not wanting the maps in the ladder to be too technical so everyone can enjoy them I think they care, they are just kind of clueless and always have been, in every one of their RTS games, when it comes to maps. The map situation definitely ruins SC2 for me though. I envision a best case scenario for the future where GSL has their own map pool and we all find games via chat and we don't have a ladder to enjoy because the maps are still the same assortment of garbage we've always had. Though this time there will never be a gamei or pgtour or iccup
i disagree - they dont care about maps - iccup.diamond made thread on their bnet forum addressing blizzard with solutions to all the map problems, and there was 40 pages of positive feedback, but there was no blue post or anything relating to the issue. its being constantly bumped to give it attention.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/801781456?page=1 this is the link of you wanna support ^
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On December 25 2010 04:44 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 04:41 LittleeD wrote: Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome. The difference is War3 had a lot of random elements that changed the way things played. Having a map where you see the same strats on 100% of the time is bad for competition. New maps promote new strategies which spice up the game. I don't see how knowing 100% of what will happen is a good thing. I never said that a player knows 100 % what his opponent will do because all races had 3-4 strategies to use on all maps (Orc maybe had a tad bit less) so scouting etc is ofc still very important. What I said was that from an observer's perspective you can know before hand the strategies possible on the maps (Given that you've followed the scene for a long time) so based on that you can with excitement follow the pro players in their task to see what strategy they choose to go with and how they'll execute it (Nothing here is white and black, theres a lot of variations to things).
My main point out of all this is that I (as a spectetor) feel GOOD knowing the top notch players know the map they play on to such perfectness that its quite unbelievable. They've played it SooooooOooOoO many times that the strategies are so extremely finely shaped so that you almost get goosebumps. Once again, this might be a bit irrelevant as Wc3 and SC1/SC2 are QUITE different games. I just wanted to point this out as the OP brought it up.
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We haven't even been through one full ladder season. No the maps haven't all totally changed within a few months.
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On December 25 2010 05:02 Lysdexia wrote: We haven't even been through one full ladder season. No the maps haven't all totally changed within a few months. The issue is that there's a lot of grievous issues with the existing maps that would have been immediately tweaked with a community-created map pool.
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On December 25 2010 04:52 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2010 04:44 Numy wrote:On December 25 2010 04:41 LittleeD wrote: Disagree about the Wc3 part (How it most feel horrible). I've played TFT for 4 years and RoC for 6 years (Yes I still play it occasionally) and the oldest map of them all (Lost Temple) is still my absolute favourite map JUST because I know it so well that I feel absolutely 100 % confident with my builds and strategy executions. There's a whole other side to this I think, given what you said (Wc3 have used a lot of the same maps for a long time) I gain imo MORE excitement than if they'd go around changing the maps every now and then, imo maybe its bad to compare Wc3 and SC1 but in Wc3 the maps were of BIG BIG importance (Obviously for more shops, camps, items etc) but I NEVER got tired of watching the same maps because I felt comfortable watching the pros play them. I knew the strategies (But every once in a while a new one popped up) so I could actually follow the pros in their minds as they played out the game. This is excitement for me, to see players play with 100 % comfort on a map that they've played on a billion times that they know inside and out so that ONLY the micro/macro/strategy and daily shape has anything to do with the outcome. The difference is War3 had a lot of random elements that changed the way things played. Having a map where you see the same strats on 100% of the time is bad for competition. New maps promote new strategies which spice up the game. I don't see how knowing 100% of what will happen is a good thing. I never said that a player knows 100 % what his opponent will do because all races had 3-4 strategies to use on all maps (Orc maybe had a tad bit less) so scouting etc is ofc still very important. What I said was that from an observer's perspective you can know before hand the strategies possible on the maps (Given that you've followed the scene for a long time) so based on that you can with excitement follow the pro players in their task to see what strategy they choose to go with and how they'll execute it (Nothing here is white and black, theres a lot of variations to things). My main point out of all this is that I (as a spectetor) feel GOOD knowing the top notch players know the map they play on to such perfectness that its quite unbelievable. They've played it SooooooOooOoO many times that the strategies are so extremely finely shaped so that you almost get goosebumps. Once again, this might be a bit irrelevant as Wc3 and SC1/SC2 are QUITE different games. I just wanted to point this out as the OP brought it up.
Yeah, WC3 is a different game. I can't talk about that, but I'm pretty sure people get sick and tired of watching the same games on the same map in Starcraft.
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Well blizzard takes notes on UMCs and made a 'best map' competition in the past. Maybe they are just waiting untill the game balance gets more stable and then they will throw more maps into the pool and rotate them from time to time...
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I hope
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blizz is not waiting or lost or bla...bla ... friggin bla their business strategy is unfolding and the community is up to bat: as in YOU go create a new thread on blizzbook, firmly constructively and politely arguing that the amount of maps has yet to be addressed by them, and that this is a vital missing part of their brilliant sc2 product, YOU put your money where your mouth is... a gazillion new threads alongside the iicup's is better than posting in said thread... that's one way for blizz to notice (just sheer space it will take, extra work for closing them, avoiding to comment on the high posting numbers... etc)
I value this thread (although I think many a poster are not discussing the real issues at stake) and the discussion and actions it can muster, so my post could be construed as a bump, yesyes!
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In Brood War maps WERE balance. Protoss winning too many games? The mappers made maps specifically bad for Protoss. A certain Terran dominating every tournament? The mappers made a map or two that "countered" that player. That's how BW remained competitive, and that's what SC2 needs.
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