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Sorry if there is a similar build posted, I looked but did not see one.
2k pt diamond league, like 91 on blizzards top 200
9 pylon
chrono probes
12 gate
1 last chrono on probes, then start saving
15 gas
17 pylon
18 cyber
20 zealot
20 gas
22 stalker
26 sentry
27 stargate
30 gate
Deny all overlords, you can't let them scout it
Pump 4 pheonix while chrono boosting them from your stargate, then send them to your opponents base while pumping one more out, pick up queens/drones.
While harassing you should be building a small ground army and expanding. As soon as they put down a hydra den you need to put down a robo + bay to pump out colos.
here are some 1800+ point zergs
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152545.jpg)
Replay shows you can survive baneling all ins with very minimal units
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152181.jpg)
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Cool beans. I have a similar mindset PvZ, but I do 4 gate push (on one gas) pressure to stargate to robo. Obviously it's a lot slower, but at my level of play (1200-1300), 4 gate alone is often enough to do serious damage and sometimes win the game outright. The whole point is to keep zerg on their heels so they aren't taking any macro advantage from their FE. I'll try 1 gate stargate more. Question though: if spotted or suspected by zerg, how does the game play out? It seems a bit all-in.
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On September 29 2010 02:14 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Cool beans. I have a similar mindset PvZ, but I do 4 gate push (on one gas) pressure to stargate to robo. Obviously it's a lot slower, but at my level of play (1200-1300), 4 gate alone is often enough to do serious damage and sometimes win the game outright. The whole point is to keep zerg on their heels so they aren't taking any macro advantage from their FE. I'll try 1 gate stargate more. Question though: if spotted or suspected by zerg, how does the game play out? It seems a bit all-in.
I wouldn't call it an all-in, but you do need to do dmg with the pheonix. I've gotten pretty good at denying overlords, so I haven't really encountered a game where they spotted my stargate, 2 stalkers take out overlords fairly quickly.
Well I would guess that 1 gate 1 robo is more common so if they suspected something I would imagine they would expect that.
I have yet to see a zerg to put down spores for "just incase".
Even spores don't stop pheonix harassment until they get 2-3.
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I have played a few zerg lately that do Dimiga's +1 lings, so they have the evo up fast. This would concern me a bit.
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On September 29 2010 02:21 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I have played a few zerg lately that do Dimiga's +1 lings, so they have the evo up fast. This would concern me a bit.
I wouldn't let it concern you. You are still doing damage by them putting up spores. And you can snipe 1-2 drones per sweep even if they have 2-3 spores up with correct micro, without losing pheonix.
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Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire?
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On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire?
Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed.
Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units.
It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas.
This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that.
I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
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I want to note that even with +1 melee zerglings, that sporecrawlers are no immediate threat to phoenix.
4 phoenix can easily kill a lot of drones before 2 sporecrawlers can even focusfire one phoenix.
Then again, those zerglings will chew through your zealot skimpy army.
I've seen phoenix play with 3 gateways a lot. phoenix' harrassing my droneline and killing overlords left and right while my zerglings are busy with the protoss ball. Phoenix' can actually come back and defend the base if they need to, but it requires vastly more APM to individually lift zerglings if there are 40 of them.
Having that said, without propper anti air, lots of phoenix' are DEADLY to a zerg. So I quiver every time they go out hunting my far away scouter overlords.
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haha i thought this was my build the reason why this is so good is only cuz he has to go hydras allowing the collosi to rape.it was big for me cuz i was having a muta problem and it shut that down. the only problem i have is when it does get scouted or they are weird and have like 4 queens and then i wasted all that money and have the wrong tech building. but it does contain the zerg allowing a safe expand and causes the zerg to get a light armored unit allowing you to roflstomp the zerg
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If you love going colossus and hate it when your opponent does anything other than hydra, then this is the build for you. Period.
That said, my practice partner came up with a 10 pool baneling bust that might give you trouble. I go the exact same early build but make a sentry before the 1st stalker, and the banelings + lings come just as my sentry pops if I make sure to chrono my sentry. In which case I forcefield the ramp and use that time to build a forge to complete my wall off. If you went stalker before sentry, I think it would be very hard to hold it off. Unless you can provide a very good reason why you want a fast stalker, I would switch your build to 22 sentry 26 stalker instead if you scout a 10 pool.
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phoenixes are devastating Vs Zerg. They do bonus damage to light units (OLs, Hydras, Mutas, lings, drones,) and they do a really good job too. I love phoenix play against zerg and cant wait to try this out
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This build seems very weak to just pasive macro zerg. Your opponent could have not taken gas, build more queens for the money, expanded and put up 1 and 2 spine crawlers plus fewer lings. The queens should take care of the phenixes, and he can just tech to mutas and straight out overpower you. You need to do a lot of damage with you phenix, A lot which you really cant that early, Maybe going Fe and then doing this build plus DT will help.. But I dont know.
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On September 29 2010 02:49 truckerdaves wrote:
phoenixes are devastating Vs Zerg. They do bonus damage to light units (OLs, Hydras, Mutas, lings, drones,) and they do a really good job too. I love phoenix play against zerg and cant wait to try this out
OLs are armored, but thats what the first stalkers are for, have fun with the Phoenix! If there is an attempt at a baneling bust, you can pull your phoenixes back to graviton beam the banelings too, it's useful vs that
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
I've been doing a very similar build except I first go for a FE. If you're only using this type of build vs FE'ing zergs I don't see the drawback of FE'ing yourself as well other than on maps where FE'ing is not very feasible (Delta and Kulas).
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With this kind of build you do minimal scouting, which generally is exactly what Zerg want. By the time I have all my Phoenix's ready I can usually find an expansion, 2 Queens and lings/roaches. I'll take the Queens, the Overlords and drones. Often this results in spores going up or Hydra Dens.
While he has a weakened economy and no room for extra units I hit him with a steady stream of Zealots and some stalkers. The expo goes down and the Colossus are on the way for the final push.
I'm delighted when I see 3 mutas in my mineral line. After they realize that the 4-5 Phoenix will outgun them they fly away pointlessly as you tail them and take them out.
The first few times I lost with this strategy I didn't tech to Colossus after the initial harass and lost to mass Hydras, it's very important if you don't win outright.
This is NOT the build I use if I see any signs of a rush, I can usually defend against the rush and then I have the advantage anyway, so I don't rush to the air.
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Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
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On September 29 2010 03:49 Jayrod wrote:
Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
Closs is definitely the way to transition, you aren't very gateway heavy anyway and at least closs are still usable before thermal lance unlike templars where you have to wait for storm to do any damage
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played against this a few times, not really sure how to fight it from the Z point of view.
Minigun: What kind of trouble, besides scouting of SG, do zergs usually give you agaisnt this build?
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OP this is exactly how I've approached 90% of pvz games I've played, coincidentally I just sort of came up with an almost-identical build myself. I'm so happy to see some one else does basically the same thing and shows how effective it can be ^^.
Couple things to note, the biggest threat to this BO seems to be fast baneling or roach all-in type builds. How ever, considering the current metagame of pvz, this is uncommon and most zergs are happy to just drone away rather than throw banelings at you if you let them =P.
Key is to make maximum use of your phoenixes and force that hydra transition. Fly them around, scout a lot, pick up drones, kill OL's, never leave the zerg to his own devices. You want to absolutely annoy the hell out of them with those phoenixes. It goes without saying, but don't lose them either =P
Between the phoenix -> colossi transition, you didn't make it clear in your post, but generally the best thing to do is get zealot speed and be making the zealots out of 2-gates. You can get templars with storms later when you have 3-4 colossi out and +1 atk, but this isn't the priority, the colossi are. Finally, don't forget to expand in your windows of opportunity!
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On September 29 2010 03:49 Jayrod wrote:
Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
I've experimented with HT but colossi just seems like a much smoother transition, even if they went initially with mutas and already have access to corruptors. You basically are harassing & defending with phoenix until you get colossi range for your timing push and colossi really helps if they hole up with spine crawlers.
I've found that if they go straight into hydras from 2-base play you usually need a few cannons to help them off. If they went mutas and transition into hydras you should have colossi by the time the hydra push comes. If they went 1-base hydras (or any 1-base play) I would not recommend going phoenix opener.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154875.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154873.jpg)
