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On September 29 2010 04:01 LilClinkin wrote:
OP this is exactly how I've approached 90% of pvz games I've played, coincidentally I just sort of came up with an almost-identical build myself. I'm so happy to see some one else does basically the same thing and shows how effective it can be ^^.
Couple things to note, the biggest threat to this BO seems to be fast baneling or roach all-in type builds. How ever, considering the current metagame of pvz, this is uncommon and most zergs are happy to just drone away rather than throw banelings at you if you let them =P.
Key is to make maximum use of your phoenixes and force that hydra transition. Fly them around, scout a lot, pick up drones, kill OL's, never leave the zerg to his own devices. You want to absolutely annoy the hell out of them with those phoenixes. It goes without saying, but don't lose them either =P
Between the phoenix -> colossi transition, you didn't make it clear in your post, but generally the best thing to do is get zealot speed and be making the zealots out of 2-gates. You can get templars with storms later when you have 3-4 colossi out and +1 atk, but this isn't the priority, the colossi are. Finally, don't forget to expand in your windows of opportunity!
Same here I've experimented with FE'ing alot vs zerg lately and after much refinement I do a very similar build, except obviously I FE and do double robo.
And yes I agree the things you have to look out for are baneling busts or early roaches so generally I expand while making a lot of sentries early to combat any possible banelings and help defend expo with 1 gate/1 forge FE openers and a couple zealots and then start pumping mainly stalkers in case of early roaches. Then I toss down a few cannons if I scout the hydra den with my first phoenix, start my robo tech, and continue pumping stalkers and adding gateways as necessary.
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When I've opened phoenix i like to keep 4 or 5 around all game if possible, but am I right to assume you guys are transitioning to gateways + collossus at that point? Corruptors concern me quite a bit and phoenix do fuck all to them.
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Great build! This seems like the final version of something I have been working towards for a while.
I'm curious though, how much do you feel delaying the Phoenix push would hurt this build? In other words, if you decide to play a little safer and get maybe an earlier zealot (not an extra one, just earlier) and an extra stalker for early aggression but kept everything else the same would it really do much harm?
My guess would be delaying the push 30s-1min wouldn't hurt the end result much but could help a lot with early aggression. But of course its your build so I'd like to hear your thoughts 
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Don't see what the phoenix had to do with the game against CellaWerra. You basically all in'ed a fast void ray against him all'inning a bling bust.
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
It most definitely will not hold against a 5RR. i can say that from experience. As for tech choice a fast VR has some chance of repelling the 5RR (but still takes major losses). Fast phoenix just dies to it flat out. Also 5RR isn't an all-in (but that's a discussion for the 5RR thread not here. Just wanted to point it out as there are some other 1base roach plays that are all-in).
I'd recomend doing something liek this vs zerg FE play though. When we FE we're usually really passive and getting ready for the usual 4gate antics most toss love >.<
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On September 29 2010 05:03 ichangedmyname wrote:
Don't see what the phoenix had to do with the game against CellaWerra. You basically all in'ed a fast void ray against him all'inning a bling bust.
I was showing how the build can survive against a bling bust with very few units.
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I'd still like to hear your thoughts on whether slightly delaying the initial Phoenix in order to have an extra stalker for early roaches would do more harm or good.
Anyway, I tried this build out with pretty good success last night. I was surprised to find that I won a game where my opponent went early Hydras (which should counter this completely). But I think the key is the fact that Z had to keep their hydras near their base to prevent harrassment, delaying their counterattack and giving me time to have Collosi by the time they decided they felt safe. Even without my Phoenix push doing any real damage, I was able to steamroll them with 10 zealots and a couple collosi simply because I had forced such a heavy hydra build.
<edit> I also made a slight modification, putting down my Robo after sending my 4 Phoenix out instead of making a 5th. Seemed like this made more sense to me as it enabled a little faster collo to counter the Hydras.
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How do you respond to gas steal?
Is there any chance of beating a timed hydra attack before colossi? At what time 1st colossus is built?
The replays are actually not really good. 1st is an example of failed baneling bust. After if got fended of you were 28 workers vs 14. The second was a 10 pool rush which doesnt really say if your build is good vs normal timings. Even 10 pool vs your build resulted in you being behind for most of the game untill that crucial battle where zerg lost coz we all know how zerg 200/200 army with no T3 sucks.
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This sounds like a pheonix variation of Antimage's build. Sounds cool, I hope to try it out later today.
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Pheonixes are broken since patch 1.1.1. You'll need super high APM to use them for anything but AA since you have to manually cancel gravaton beam after the targeted unit dies.
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Air support combined with a strong warpgate push works wonders against zerg. Here's a game i had against Z where i think i played it perfect, i had all the right counters for everything the Z had to come at me with (1100 diamond at the moment, admittedly delta quad is a bad map for zerg, but it's a good game i had, let me know how i did!)
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So lets try breaking this into simple terms. Do AntiMages VR into Colossus/Expo build except instead of VR's make Phoenix's.
I was running some thoughts of going straight to Dark Templars instead of Colossus initially to keep his base count low as well as to generally keep him away. This should allow you to have constant pressure and be able to defend yourself since his only unit that can see you flies (You have air control). I would think that massing zealots in the mean time with charge and +1 should be able to give you a nice meat shield to target fire the Overseer's.
Gas Break Down for Colossus = 100 (Robo) + 200 (Bay) + 200 (1 Colossus) + 200 (Range) = 700 Gas
Dark Templars = 100 (Citadel thingy I still remember BW name lol) + 250 (Shrine) + 125 (Dark Templar) = 475 Gas
The difference is 225 in tech/upgrades and for 1 unit of each. This should allow you to get storm in time when it should count. This also doesn't take into account the mineral difference which you can use to produce out of 1 or maybe 2 more gates.
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On September 30 2010 02:15 unaliased wrote:
Pheonixes are broken since patch 1.1.1. You'll need super high APM to use them for anything but AA since you have to manually cancel gravaton beam after the targeted unit dies.
Yeah its a pain, but its not TOO hard to simply hit escape after each kill to cancel the beam. Realistically this only affects Drone killing. Queens die right about when the beam would end anyway and OL killing is obviously the same.
I suppose if you were trying to use your phoenix group to help stop a ling rush it would have a bigger impact. But that requires high APM anyway and most players are probably better off focusing their attention on their ground army.
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wow. looking at the reps with a friend and fangirling hardcore
(we're both cellawerra fans) ahaha.
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I've done the same sort of build several times, but I've been shifting towards building only a single phoenix v zerg. It can hit overlords, scout, and hopefully cause an overreaction via hydralisks, in which case, yep, you just go straight into collosi like you said.
Do you stop after 5 phoenixes? Also, I think probably the biggest issue would be a well-executed timing push to take advantage of the fact you have to sacrifice ground forces for phoenixes.
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On September 30 2010 03:36 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've done the same sort of build several times, but I've been shifting towards building only a single phoenix v zerg. It can hit overlords, scout, and hopefully cause an overreaction via hydralisks, in which case, yep, you just go straight into collosi like you said.
Do you stop after 5 phoenixes? Also, I think probably the biggest issue would be a well-executed timing push to take advantage of the fact you have to sacrifice ground forces for phoenixes.
I believe he said earlier he stops at 5 unless Mutas.
As for the timing push, proper turtling with force fields completely negates that I think. Your opponent is going to have to push with ground since you already established air superiority, which means you can simply FF him out while you build a ground force yourself. Once a couple of Collosi are out, you push back and expo. At least that's how its played out for me trying this build.
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I've been doing this sort of build alot vs zerg too; I do 2 gateway 1 stargate zelot/phoenix then transition to collosi when the z gets heavy hydra. I've found this build to be somewhat susceptible to either early roach or a midgame roach/hydra combo before you transition to a robo build. It also depends alot on the success of your early phoenix harass
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Well thanks to the new pheonix bug this build is basically useless for now, hehe.
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Air support combined with a strong warpgate push works wonders against zerg. but honestly i would not suggest going just one gate straight into stargate, you really don't want to lose your ground units to zerg and be left chasing down a mass of speedlings with a few phoenix or voidrays. Here's a game i had against Z where i think i played it perfect, i had all the right counters for everything the Z had to come at me with; a few gates coupled with void ray and phoenix play (1100 diamond at the moment, admittedly delta quad is a bad map for zerg, but it's a good game i had, let me know how i did!)
edit* sorry for repost, meant to edit instead of quote -_-
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OP, I used to to do this strategy every game vs zerg , and it worked every time he didn't roach push. It's funny, because I would wait until four phoenixes too (four phoenixes is the minimum to kill a queen in one graviton beam). I problem was, every time the zerg got even reasonably fast roaches, i would lose to his push. One sentry is not enough, and the phoenixes are not out by the time he's at my front. How do you deal with roaches?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-153272.jpg)
