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On October 06 2010 04:16 phil.ipp wrote:
the strategy in his basic is not bad.
the basic idea of this strategy is for me, i build phoenixes so i have map control and the zerg will think twice about going mutas. then i switch to collosi and from there on i have a good chance of winning.
what i would question is building 4-5 or more phoenixes
cause all it will do is slow the zerg down but it also slows you down from getting fast to collosi
1-2 phoenixes sends the message: i have map control, i will know if you switch to mutas, and i will add a second stargate and stomp you if you do it. then i kill 2-3 overlords and 2-3 drones - so that the phoenixes are worth the money.
with 4-5 phoenixes i think i would give the zerg a bigger window where he can just overrun me with lings and roaches .. or he sees you commited heavily on phoenixes so he just expands a third time, either way you get screwed.
also 1-2 phoenixes can be handled from a player below 100 apm cause they dont have to do much damage, just fly with them around sometime.
4-5 phoenixes have to do much more damage and cause of that need much more attention, and you have to expand and macro hard in the meantime, all that need apm apm apm ..
im not saying more phoenixes are bad, but you should only build more than 2 if you know you have the apm to really do damage and macro at the same time.
4-5 is the optimum here, I usually go for 4. The queen is also a high priority hereto slow down the zerg production, and it's still entirely possible, even easy, to hold your base while doing it. Phoenix can always lift some of the roaches should he try to push.
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Thanks for the post, very helpful for me. I've been getting trashed in PvZ lately... the replay vs Dhalsim was pretty epic. All game it seemed like you were behind, so it was inspiring to watch as a 1100 toss player. Keeping the harassing phoenixes alive seemed essential, so you could use them to pick up hydras when the zerg attacked early. This is where I've gone wrong with this build in the past-- my harass didn't do enough damage and then I'm left trying to fend off a ground attack when I've spent money on phoenixes that got killed. My other mistake has been going overlord hunting with only 1-2 phoenix built, giving my opponent time to get more queens or spore colonies.
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Been working with this build a lot lately, and I seem to have found a really nice followup to it: island expanding.
The one thing I didn't like about this build was the need to wait to expand, which upped the damage you need to do in order to keep level and start teching. Nothing Z has after a phoenix opener can really break your front ramp, but as soon as you expand you better have Collosi.
What I did was cut out the 5th phoenix, and throw a robo down after the 4th. Pumping out a warp prism and expanding to an Island while harrassing. This accomplished 3 things:
1. Gave me an expansion that Z would need air, which I already established dominance over, to attack.
2. Allowed me to skimp on a ground army and tech harder for longer, using sentries to hold my ramp.
3. Removed some of Z's drive to expand like crazy since he thought I was on 1 base for longer.
Of course it only works on certain maps, but it seems pretty foolproof on those. Unless there's some obvious counter to it I'm missing? 
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Been doing this for a while with a very very good results. I agree with minigun that 5 is a very good number. Large enough to kill queens within one graviton beam quickly and being able to kill OLs that quickly is a super helpful thing, even if it delays robo a little more.
I just played a match with my practice partner with the guy assuming that I'll go phoenix and I still won thanks to colossi. He fast teched to hydra to stop my phoenixes but they are too slow and I was about to siege the map and kill all the stranded OLs, giving me lots of time since it constantly kept him supply blocked and had him waste min/drone on spores. And once you start pumping colossi from double robo, shit is OVER
This is a great build that I've been doing sloppy and it's great to see it working so well.
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Never lost to the colossus version of this, but the DT one is mean. If a zerg decides that your stargate tech makes you an easy kill you can't make enough colossi/gateway units to deal with the hydras he'll just mass and throw at you, but you can get DTs, hunt for overseers with your phoenixes, kill them, and now the hydras can't even shoot your combat unit. The best thing I can do is put an overseer nice and safe in the middle of my hydra ball to make my attack killer but I can't protect overseers in my base when I move out, so DTs can just march in and cut everything to ribbons and I have to attempt a base trade which as always a clusterfuck. Fuck, hide the dark shrine and by the time it's revealed it's too late for the zerg.
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The key is that you wait until there's 4 phoenix before you push out. I've experimented with this and I would always move with 2 with more making. If you go with 2 you tip that you have them and give the zerg time to get sufficient counters out before you can really do a decent amount of damage so waiting til there's 4 is probably optimal. I'll try this on ladder later.
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with enough ling harass, this strategy blows up. coming from a zerg, i would always tell a toss to make 2 zealots before doing anything else if you are going blind. or just wall completely with chronoboosted ranged unit then shoot it down when you are ready to move out. mass ling can just run all over you. you arent going to be doing anything with ground units anyway so why be significantly weaker for 100 minerals. i feel voidray is more viable than this. you can abuse the fact that zergs will refuse to put up a AA for a drone i suppose.
i get so giddy when i see a cyber core go down early. as z i go 14/13 gas-pool 13 drone 14 drone overlord 6 ling, queen, pump lings, hatch when you get 300. you can take down zealot if he isn't good at micro or take down the pylon with two lings (p has to wall with zealot), wait for zealot to stop the 2 lings from killing it then rush in and harass like hell or get more surface area on zealot. zerg just has to keep pressuring while p has to try significantly harder to defend
i would suggest something more than just a zealot in that early timing. the singular zealot will be useless or dead against speedlings and your stalker will get crushed by rallied speedlings
needs to be a relatively far rush distance then it's more powerful.
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With the new patch and range 4 roaches, would this be a viable opening if you are scouting for a roach warren while the first phoenix is coming out? If you see a roach warren, switching to void rays seems a lot stronger than staying on just gateway units. And if there are no roaches, and just muta/ling, then continuing as normal on this build seems pretty good.
Thoughts?
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On October 19 2010 03:34 kevmo wrote:
With the new patch and range 4 roaches, would this be a viable opening if you are scouting for a roach warren while the first phoenix is coming out? If you see a roach warren, switching to void rays seems a lot stronger than staying on just gateway units. And if there are no roaches, and just muta/ling, then continuing as normal on this build seems pretty good.
Thoughts?
I do this in PvZ all the time and yes, if there is a roach warren I do Void Rays. You can't really win the game right there, but it forces the Zerg to stop what he is doing and get more queens or evo/spores right away. This whole window is supposed to allow you to expand, but some zerg attack which becomes hard to deal with.
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
If you see 5RR, with ur phoenix, quickly cb a void ray?
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If you send your first phoenix out to scout, the whole element of surprise is gone. Thats not the point of this build as far as I understand. He can make enough queens and spore crawlers for your final 4 phoenixes that way.
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re: roaches
Would you recommend stationing a void ray along with your ground army to help hold off any kind of pressure at your front?
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On October 19 2010 07:22 rozina wrote:
If you send your first phoenix out to scout, the whole element of surprise is gone. Thats not the point of this build as far as I understand. He can make enough queens and spore crawlers for your final 4 phoenixes that way.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant scout with a probe or stalker WHILE the phoenix is building, so you know if you should be switching to void rays.
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why do you 12 gate, it almost always makes you cut that probe
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do you think it is viable on maps with backdoor, like blistering?
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I've been trying work something like this out, as my standard build agianst zerg. But most Z players go for hydra+roach so it's not the best strat anymore
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A Zerg player cannot effectively do Hydra/Roach on 1 base, so they have to expand. The stargate units come before hydras
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Seems strange vs a non aggressive P like this i expand at 15 double queen and lair right after queen pops, I am not sure on phoenix timings but 2 voids come right as my hydras about to pop so i assume 4 phoenixes would come later. Usually when i do get hurt by phoenixes is when i get early pressured and then hit by phoenixes and i was slowed down too much to have hydras out. Once i get home i ll check out the replays to see what zerg are doing that makes them take alot of damage from this, given that all these guys are much better zerg then me, i am roughly 1500 right now.
On top of that i have killed quite a few P (obviosly not 2k) but 14-1500 who when phoenixes with this set up, where once i fend of phoenixes i pump out hydra roach and hit them before first collosi is out. Teching strait to Collosi after 4-5 phoenixes leaves P with fairly small gate unit count so they just die unless my economy was hurt too much. Chances are they just making a mistake somewhere and thus dont have enough forces, but it does seem resonable since you have 4-5 phoenixes which are hardly amazing vs 12 or so hydras and a lot of money spent on expo/collosi tech.
And what is up with all the talk about forces zerg to put hydra den... Unless i am mistaken hydra roach/corruptors are just fine set up vs P. I prefer it to muta ling to be honest, but that is mostly because it fits my macro play, and i love hydras and cant use them in zvt and my zvz never get to lair.
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I treat this build like I treat mutas in terms of pheonix production. Build 3-4 pheonix, harass, if it is being effective, build a couple more phoenix and continue, else techswitch to either templar or robo.
I do similar things when I am playing zerg, Mutas, harass, if effective build more, else switch into hydra/roach.
The point if this build is to prevent muta harass by forcing hydra, allowing you to follow up with Zealot/HT or Robo tech, which is quite string against hydras.
Personally I find Hydras a lot easier to deal with than mutas as P. So I like to open stargate so I ahve to deal with mutas less.
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EPT
