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On September 30 2010 04:33 Hooblagoo wrote:
OP, I used to to do this strategy every game vs zerg , and it worked every time he didn't roach push. It's funny, because I would wait until four phoenixes too (four phoenixes is the minimum to kill a queen in one graviton beam). I problem was, every time the zerg got even reasonably fast roaches, i would lose to his push. One sentry is not enough, and the phoenixes are not out by the time he's at my front. How do you deal with roaches?
I would definitely try my best to keep my scout probe alive to see fast roaches. If that is the case I would cronoboost a void ray out before phoenix.
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Pheonix harass is why I steal gas as zerg now
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If zerg steals my gas I just build a lot of zealots and expand and get lots of blink stalkers. No point in freaking out trying to continue on a gas heavy build if he steals your geyser. yuo can always put down a 2nd gas early too and just not mine it til you are ready. I do this if the drone is headed towards the geyser if I really want to do a gas heavy build.
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On September 30 2010 07:54 Mokkal wrote:
If zerg steals my gas I just build a lot of zealots and expand and get lots of blink stalkers. No point in freaking out trying to continue on a gas heavy build if he steals your geyser. yuo can always put down a 2nd gas early too and just not mine it til you are ready. I do this if the drone is headed towards the geyser if I really want to do a gas heavy build.
Pretty much this. The one time I had a zerg double gas steal I just immediately plopped down another gateway, pumped 3-4 zealots and rushed him. He's down 150 minerals for the gas steal+2 drones. There's no way he also has an early pool and enough minerals to stop a rush.
If he only stole one gas, then you can mine pleanty off the other one until getting a zealot to clear the other node.
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Nony i uses this also. I have tried so many times with this build because i hate mutalisks it usually ends up 2 ways Mass zergling overruns my forces because i go 1 gateway 1 stargate. Or mass hydralisk b4 i can tech to collosus. Or i win because they are to slow to react but i notice alot more now that Zergs get more queens.
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On October 01 2010 02:03 Proto_Protoss wrote:
Nony i uses this also. I have tried so many times with this build because i hate mutalisks it usually ends up 2 ways Mass zergling overruns my forces because i go 1 gateway 1 stargate. Or mass hydralisk b4 i can tech to collosus. Or i win because they are to slow to react but i notice alot more now that Zergs get more queens.
How exactly do these forces do you in? I've been trying this build a good amount and I haven't lost before I could get Collosi out yet (although I have lost after), but maybe Z is doing something to you that they aren't doing to me.
When doing this build you are very short on a gateway force, but a few sentries can keep out a ling rush, bling bust or hydra force. As long as you made your first sentry relatively early it should have enough juice to wall in while you warp a few more in. Then just keep FFing and making zealots while your collosus finishes.
I'm only 1k diamond, so maybe you are facing Z that do something in response to this I haven't seen.
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What is your response if zerg simply gets corrupters? They stop phoenix play stone cold and preempt the colossus transition at the same time. This would make HT play more appealing, but it would at least seem to me at first blush that some sort of ling/roach/corrupter push could come before storm is out, and storm wouldn't be great vs. roaches to begin with.
I know that sounds like a theoretical objection, but I've had one or two losses vs zerg who respond to phoenix with their own corrupters. I love the phoenix play vs zerg personally, but those corrupters are just so brutal that I'd really like a plan B to transition to if they show up. The only move I can really think of would be two stargate voidray (carrier, even?) and just go for a massive air-based play. Have you run into corrupter responses like this minigun?
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I like to get two gates with one gas before throwing down a stargate.... Then I get up to about 6 zealots and pressure their expo while the third phoenix finishes and hopefully the zeals stayed alive and let me put the phoenixes in the mineral line. Generally lets me get the queen before I really have to worry about taking damage. then I just go for workers and use my next 2 phoenixes to snipe ovies
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Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game
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On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game
Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ .
Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it 
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as a zerg i usually just build one or two spores at the mineral line and maybe an extra queen or two and expand again and keep macroing roaches, the key i think is to not overreact. i usually then tech to mutas unless they have ALOT of phoenixes, adnif that happens ling/roach/ w/ some hydra can usually power though them when they attempt to expand.
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It's nice, might wanna try that as soon as phoenixes aren't bugged anymore 
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On October 01 2010 04:23 MalVortex wrote:
What is your response if zerg simply gets corrupters? They stop phoenix play stone cold and preempt the colossus transition at the same time. This would make HT play more appealing, but it would at least seem to me at first blush that some sort of ling/roach/corrupter push could come before storm is out, and storm wouldn't be great vs. roaches to begin with.
I know that sounds like a theoretical objection, but I've had one or two losses vs zerg who respond to phoenix with their own corrupters. I love the phoenix play vs zerg personally, but those corrupters are just so brutal that I'd really like a plan B to transition to if they show up. The only move I can really think of would be two stargate voidray (carrier, even?) and just go for a massive air-based play. Have you run into corrupter responses like this minigun?
-Nothing is forcing you to attack the corruptors with your phoenixes head on.
-You can still harass w/ phoenixes since corruptors are slow.
-You can still focus fire their mutas with your phoenixes even with corruptors there.
-Corruptors actually do less dps to phoenixes than mutas do (if you count bounce damage), yet are more expensive.
-Realize it's not very feasible to harass with a muta/corruptor army because corruptors are again, slow, which is basically mutas main strength as a unit.
If they go with a heavy corruptor comp for some illogical reason then just smash them w/ 6 gateways. You don't even need colossi b/c they will be spread very thin from the gas costs of the corruptors. You have to realize the phoenix are mainly there to scout, harass, and deter mutas harass, all of which can still be done regardless if corruptors are in play. You aren't massing phoenix here, they are a transition unit.
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Hey, after watching the 45 minute replay on Xel'Naga Caverns, I have a little tid-bit. You had templars for the push at around 28:00, and he had a big army of corrupters that demolished your colossi.
Every single one of those corrupters, all 10 or 12 of them, had 200/200 energy. You could have feedback demolished his entire corrupter army, and kept your colossi alive to keep dealing with the ground.
Just something to think about 
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On October 01 2010 06:28 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ . Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it
Psssh, you are good. Its always easy to spot problems in anyones play as an outsider though. Easy to say but hard to do is the way of starcraft lol.
I had that problem too, still do sometimes but I started hotkeying my forge to like 7 or 8 (w/e not used) and even if i don't use the key at least I can see it on my bar as a little mental reminder. Its really useful imo.
Could always build 2 forges if u fall behind :D usually have a mineral surplus anyway towards the late game
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On October 01 2010 07:34 Gnial wrote:Hey, after watching the 45 minute replay on Xel'Naga Caverns, I have a little tid-bit. You had templars for the push at around 28:00, and he had a big army of corrupters that demolished your colossi. Every single one of those corrupters, all 10 or 12 of them, had 200/200 energy. You could have feedback demolished his entire corrupter army, and kept your colossi alive to keep dealing with the ground. Just something to think about
You are correct, I probably was just in the heat of the moment and enjoying the battle . But thanks for the tip, Once they get 10+ corrupters I usually just let the colossus die since there is little hope in saving them.
On October 01 2010 13:00 CurLy[] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:28 Minigun wrote:On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ . Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it Psssh, you are good. Its always easy to spot problems in anyones play as an outsider though. Easy to say but hard to do is the way of starcraft lol. I had that problem too, still do sometimes but I started hotkeying my forge to like 7 or 8 (w/e not used) and even if i don't use the key at least I can see it on my bar as a little mental reminder. Its really useful imo. Could always build 2 forges if u fall behind :D usually have a mineral surplus anyway towards the late game
Good idea .
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Bump, you can even get this to work with the bug around. It's working better now that I've refined the build a bit.
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i respect your effort to write this build order up, but your replays show not in the slightest that this is a good build
1. replay you practically void ray rush a zerg who baneling allins .. nothing to see there
2. replay i only watched it till minute 19, why the zerg didnt absolutly wreck you by then is beyond me, it was definitely not cause of your good play.
by the time your 4 phoenix was out, he had a expansion full running pumping zerglings and roaches, he could have just killed you right there or denied your expansion.
show me a replay where you actually play against a decent zerg who not allin on you ..
i can see this build working, if someone with really decent apm do it, cause you have to macro really hard while harrassing.
killing some drones and overlords just doesnt cut it, if the zerg has a expansion full running..
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On October 04 2010 08:36 phil.ipp wrote:
i respect your effort to write this build order up, but your replays show not in the slightest that this is a good build
1. replay you practically void ray rush a zerg who baneling allins .. nothing to see there
2. replay i only watched it till minute 19, why the zerg didnt absolutly wreck you by then is beyond me, it was definitely not cause of your good play.
by the time your 4 phoenix was out, he had a expansion full running pumping zerglings and roaches, he could have just killed you right there or denied your expansion.
show me a replay where you actually play against a decent zerg who not allin on you ..
i can see this build working, if someone with really decent apm do it, cause you have to macro really hard while harrassing.
killing some drones and overlords just doesnt cut it, if the zerg has a expansion full running..
Okay, before you start saying this build sucks, please give a link to your profile, so I can see what I am dealing with skillwise, for all I know you could be a 21-28 bronze player.
In the replay with cella, I was simply showing it can survive an all in with minimal units.
No one is forcing you to use this build, all I can say is it works for me against 1800+ zergs, but hey, you are right, it sucks.
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i didnt want to offend you man,
you survived an banling bust, ok but i cant think of a build (fast expand builds excluded) that doesnt survive a banling bust, all you need is a wallin, sentry and some gateway units, which is all pretty standard in the most builds .. but ok i give it to you, that build is not some over risky allin build you showed that.
but the second replay is just not suitable to show anything
watch the replay again
some highlights:
at the time you moved out with your 4 phoenixes -> zerg was 20 food ahead of you
at the time your first phoenix harass was done and you flew back -> zerg was 30 food ahead of you
you expanded with a force of 4 stalker 2 zealots and 2 sentrys while the zerg had in his base 20 ! lings 9 roaches and 1 hydra ( more hydras on the way )
only god knows why he stayed in his base with that force maybe he thought the roaches and lings can help him with the phoenixes
at minute 15, he is on 3 bases and you on 1, he is nearly 60 food ahead of you with double income
there i stopped viewing.
if you won in the end, i congratulate you, but i hope you can see that this has nothing to do with your inital build..
if i have to jugde your build by this replay the only thing that i can think of is, this is not a save build at all. you had luck and didnt get totally crushed in the first 15 minutes, after that the zerg couldnt make use of his advantage.
i dont say that build sucks, but maybe you want to provide some other replays
and no you dont need my profile.
actually why dont you ask the other guys who like this strategy for their profile?
maybe they are all bronze and like your strategy only cause of that :D
EDIT: finished the replay, this zerg played awful ( no disrespect ) his timings, when he attacked, where he attacked, his unit composition and of course his micro .. this game had nothing to do with balance..
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EPT
