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Sorry if there is a similar build posted, I looked but did not see one.
2k pt diamond league, like 91 on blizzards top 200
9 pylon
chrono probes
12 gate
1 last chrono on probes, then start saving
15 gas
17 pylon
18 cyber
20 zealot
20 gas
22 stalker
26 sentry
27 stargate
30 gate
Deny all overlords, you can't let them scout it
Pump 4 pheonix while chrono boosting them from your stargate, then send them to your opponents base while pumping one more out, pick up queens/drones.
While harassing you should be building a small ground army and expanding. As soon as they put down a hydra den you need to put down a robo + bay to pump out colos.
here are some 1800+ point zergs
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152545.jpg)
Replay shows you can survive baneling all ins with very minimal units
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152181.jpg)
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Cool beans. I have a similar mindset PvZ, but I do 4 gate push (on one gas) pressure to stargate to robo. Obviously it's a lot slower, but at my level of play (1200-1300), 4 gate alone is often enough to do serious damage and sometimes win the game outright. The whole point is to keep zerg on their heels so they aren't taking any macro advantage from their FE. I'll try 1 gate stargate more. Question though: if spotted or suspected by zerg, how does the game play out? It seems a bit all-in.
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On September 29 2010 02:14 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Cool beans. I have a similar mindset PvZ, but I do 4 gate push (on one gas) pressure to stargate to robo. Obviously it's a lot slower, but at my level of play (1200-1300), 4 gate alone is often enough to do serious damage and sometimes win the game outright. The whole point is to keep zerg on their heels so they aren't taking any macro advantage from their FE. I'll try 1 gate stargate more. Question though: if spotted or suspected by zerg, how does the game play out? It seems a bit all-in.
I wouldn't call it an all-in, but you do need to do dmg with the pheonix. I've gotten pretty good at denying overlords, so I haven't really encountered a game where they spotted my stargate, 2 stalkers take out overlords fairly quickly.
Well I would guess that 1 gate 1 robo is more common so if they suspected something I would imagine they would expect that.
I have yet to see a zerg to put down spores for "just incase".
Even spores don't stop pheonix harassment until they get 2-3.
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I have played a few zerg lately that do Dimiga's +1 lings, so they have the evo up fast. This would concern me a bit.
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On September 29 2010 02:21 whoopadeedoo wrote:
I have played a few zerg lately that do Dimiga's +1 lings, so they have the evo up fast. This would concern me a bit.
I wouldn't let it concern you. You are still doing damage by them putting up spores. And you can snipe 1-2 drones per sweep even if they have 2-3 spores up with correct micro, without losing pheonix.
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Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire?
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On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire?
Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed.
Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units.
It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas.
This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that.
I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
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I want to note that even with +1 melee zerglings, that sporecrawlers are no immediate threat to phoenix.
4 phoenix can easily kill a lot of drones before 2 sporecrawlers can even focusfire one phoenix.
Then again, those zerglings will chew through your zealot skimpy army.
I've seen phoenix play with 3 gateways a lot. phoenix' harrassing my droneline and killing overlords left and right while my zerglings are busy with the protoss ball. Phoenix' can actually come back and defend the base if they need to, but it requires vastly more APM to individually lift zerglings if there are 40 of them.
Having that said, without propper anti air, lots of phoenix' are DEADLY to a zerg. So I quiver every time they go out hunting my far away scouter overlords.
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haha i thought this was my build the reason why this is so good is only cuz he has to go hydras allowing the collosi to rape.it was big for me cuz i was having a muta problem and it shut that down. the only problem i have is when it does get scouted or they are weird and have like 4 queens and then i wasted all that money and have the wrong tech building. but it does contain the zerg allowing a safe expand and causes the zerg to get a light armored unit allowing you to roflstomp the zerg
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If you love going colossus and hate it when your opponent does anything other than hydra, then this is the build for you. Period.
That said, my practice partner came up with a 10 pool baneling bust that might give you trouble. I go the exact same early build but make a sentry before the 1st stalker, and the banelings + lings come just as my sentry pops if I make sure to chrono my sentry. In which case I forcefield the ramp and use that time to build a forge to complete my wall off. If you went stalker before sentry, I think it would be very hard to hold it off. Unless you can provide a very good reason why you want a fast stalker, I would switch your build to 22 sentry 26 stalker instead if you scout a 10 pool.
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phoenixes are devastating Vs Zerg. They do bonus damage to light units (OLs, Hydras, Mutas, lings, drones,) and they do a really good job too. I love phoenix play against zerg and cant wait to try this out
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This build seems very weak to just pasive macro zerg. Your opponent could have not taken gas, build more queens for the money, expanded and put up 1 and 2 spine crawlers plus fewer lings. The queens should take care of the phenixes, and he can just tech to mutas and straight out overpower you. You need to do a lot of damage with you phenix, A lot which you really cant that early, Maybe going Fe and then doing this build plus DT will help.. But I dont know.
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On September 29 2010 02:49 truckerdaves wrote:
phoenixes are devastating Vs Zerg. They do bonus damage to light units (OLs, Hydras, Mutas, lings, drones,) and they do a really good job too. I love phoenix play against zerg and cant wait to try this out
OLs are armored, but thats what the first stalkers are for, have fun with the Phoenix! If there is an attempt at a baneling bust, you can pull your phoenixes back to graviton beam the banelings too, it's useful vs that
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
I've been doing a very similar build except I first go for a FE. If you're only using this type of build vs FE'ing zergs I don't see the drawback of FE'ing yourself as well other than on maps where FE'ing is not very feasible (Delta and Kulas).
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With this kind of build you do minimal scouting, which generally is exactly what Zerg want. By the time I have all my Phoenix's ready I can usually find an expansion, 2 Queens and lings/roaches. I'll take the Queens, the Overlords and drones. Often this results in spores going up or Hydra Dens.
While he has a weakened economy and no room for extra units I hit him with a steady stream of Zealots and some stalkers. The expo goes down and the Colossus are on the way for the final push.
I'm delighted when I see 3 mutas in my mineral line. After they realize that the 4-5 Phoenix will outgun them they fly away pointlessly as you tail them and take them out.
The first few times I lost with this strategy I didn't tech to Colossus after the initial harass and lost to mass Hydras, it's very important if you don't win outright.
This is NOT the build I use if I see any signs of a rush, I can usually defend against the rush and then I have the advantage anyway, so I don't rush to the air.
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Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
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On September 29 2010 03:49 Jayrod wrote:
Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
Closs is definitely the way to transition, you aren't very gateway heavy anyway and at least closs are still usable before thermal lance unlike templars where you have to wait for storm to do any damage
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played against this a few times, not really sure how to fight it from the Z point of view.
Minigun: What kind of trouble, besides scouting of SG, do zergs usually give you agaisnt this build?
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OP this is exactly how I've approached 90% of pvz games I've played, coincidentally I just sort of came up with an almost-identical build myself. I'm so happy to see some one else does basically the same thing and shows how effective it can be ^^.
Couple things to note, the biggest threat to this BO seems to be fast baneling or roach all-in type builds. How ever, considering the current metagame of pvz, this is uncommon and most zergs are happy to just drone away rather than throw banelings at you if you let them =P.
Key is to make maximum use of your phoenixes and force that hydra transition. Fly them around, scout a lot, pick up drones, kill OL's, never leave the zerg to his own devices. You want to absolutely annoy the hell out of them with those phoenixes. It goes without saying, but don't lose them either =P
Between the phoenix -> colossi transition, you didn't make it clear in your post, but generally the best thing to do is get zealot speed and be making the zealots out of 2-gates. You can get templars with storms later when you have 3-4 colossi out and +1 atk, but this isn't the priority, the colossi are. Finally, don't forget to expand in your windows of opportunity!
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On September 29 2010 03:49 Jayrod wrote:
Hmmm my phoenix openers have always led into templar, but it feels like that leaves a big window. Ill try to transition to collossus first since its a bit faster tech I believe than templar.. certainly less gas intensive and you dont have to wait for energy.
I cant watch the replay at work, but do you feel you can hold an expansion with your ground army while you do this harass or do you forge up? Sometimes when I open phoenix the hydra den goes down almost immediately and they try to end it early with hydra. Ill watch the reps when I get home its just that I find it hard to expand without building my base more outwards and cannons help with that.
I've experimented with HT but colossi just seems like a much smoother transition, even if they went initially with mutas and already have access to corruptors. You basically are harassing & defending with phoenix until you get colossi range for your timing push and colossi really helps if they hole up with spine crawlers.
I've found that if they go straight into hydras from 2-base play you usually need a few cannons to help them off. If they went mutas and transition into hydras you should have colossi by the time the hydra push comes. If they went 1-base hydras (or any 1-base play) I would not recommend going phoenix opener.
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On September 29 2010 04:01 LilClinkin wrote:
OP this is exactly how I've approached 90% of pvz games I've played, coincidentally I just sort of came up with an almost-identical build myself. I'm so happy to see some one else does basically the same thing and shows how effective it can be ^^.
Couple things to note, the biggest threat to this BO seems to be fast baneling or roach all-in type builds. How ever, considering the current metagame of pvz, this is uncommon and most zergs are happy to just drone away rather than throw banelings at you if you let them =P.
Key is to make maximum use of your phoenixes and force that hydra transition. Fly them around, scout a lot, pick up drones, kill OL's, never leave the zerg to his own devices. You want to absolutely annoy the hell out of them with those phoenixes. It goes without saying, but don't lose them either =P
Between the phoenix -> colossi transition, you didn't make it clear in your post, but generally the best thing to do is get zealot speed and be making the zealots out of 2-gates. You can get templars with storms later when you have 3-4 colossi out and +1 atk, but this isn't the priority, the colossi are. Finally, don't forget to expand in your windows of opportunity!
Same here I've experimented with FE'ing alot vs zerg lately and after much refinement I do a very similar build, except obviously I FE and do double robo.
And yes I agree the things you have to look out for are baneling busts or early roaches so generally I expand while making a lot of sentries early to combat any possible banelings and help defend expo with 1 gate/1 forge FE openers and a couple zealots and then start pumping mainly stalkers in case of early roaches. Then I toss down a few cannons if I scout the hydra den with my first phoenix, start my robo tech, and continue pumping stalkers and adding gateways as necessary.
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When I've opened phoenix i like to keep 4 or 5 around all game if possible, but am I right to assume you guys are transitioning to gateways + collossus at that point? Corruptors concern me quite a bit and phoenix do fuck all to them.
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Great build! This seems like the final version of something I have been working towards for a while.
I'm curious though, how much do you feel delaying the Phoenix push would hurt this build? In other words, if you decide to play a little safer and get maybe an earlier zealot (not an extra one, just earlier) and an extra stalker for early aggression but kept everything else the same would it really do much harm?
My guess would be delaying the push 30s-1min wouldn't hurt the end result much but could help a lot with early aggression. But of course its your build so I'd like to hear your thoughts 
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Don't see what the phoenix had to do with the game against CellaWerra. You basically all in'ed a fast void ray against him all'inning a bling bust.
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
It most definitely will not hold against a 5RR. i can say that from experience. As for tech choice a fast VR has some chance of repelling the 5RR (but still takes major losses). Fast phoenix just dies to it flat out. Also 5RR isn't an all-in (but that's a discussion for the 5RR thread not here. Just wanted to point it out as there are some other 1base roach plays that are all-in).
I'd recomend doing something liek this vs zerg FE play though. When we FE we're usually really passive and getting ready for the usual 4gate antics most toss love >.<
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On September 29 2010 05:03 ichangedmyname wrote:
Don't see what the phoenix had to do with the game against CellaWerra. You basically all in'ed a fast void ray against him all'inning a bling bust.
I was showing how the build can survive against a bling bust with very few units.
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I'd still like to hear your thoughts on whether slightly delaying the initial Phoenix in order to have an extra stalker for early roaches would do more harm or good.
Anyway, I tried this build out with pretty good success last night. I was surprised to find that I won a game where my opponent went early Hydras (which should counter this completely). But I think the key is the fact that Z had to keep their hydras near their base to prevent harrassment, delaying their counterattack and giving me time to have Collosi by the time they decided they felt safe. Even without my Phoenix push doing any real damage, I was able to steamroll them with 10 zealots and a couple collosi simply because I had forced such a heavy hydra build.
<edit> I also made a slight modification, putting down my Robo after sending my 4 Phoenix out instead of making a 5th. Seemed like this made more sense to me as it enabled a little faster collo to counter the Hydras.
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How do you respond to gas steal?
Is there any chance of beating a timed hydra attack before colossi? At what time 1st colossus is built?
The replays are actually not really good. 1st is an example of failed baneling bust. After if got fended of you were 28 workers vs 14. The second was a 10 pool rush which doesnt really say if your build is good vs normal timings. Even 10 pool vs your build resulted in you being behind for most of the game untill that crucial battle where zerg lost coz we all know how zerg 200/200 army with no T3 sucks.
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This sounds like a pheonix variation of Antimage's build. Sounds cool, I hope to try it out later today.
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Pheonixes are broken since patch 1.1.1. You'll need super high APM to use them for anything but AA since you have to manually cancel gravaton beam after the targeted unit dies.
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Air support combined with a strong warpgate push works wonders against zerg. Here's a game i had against Z where i think i played it perfect, i had all the right counters for everything the Z had to come at me with (1100 diamond at the moment, admittedly delta quad is a bad map for zerg, but it's a good game i had, let me know how i did!)
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So lets try breaking this into simple terms. Do AntiMages VR into Colossus/Expo build except instead of VR's make Phoenix's.
I was running some thoughts of going straight to Dark Templars instead of Colossus initially to keep his base count low as well as to generally keep him away. This should allow you to have constant pressure and be able to defend yourself since his only unit that can see you flies (You have air control). I would think that massing zealots in the mean time with charge and +1 should be able to give you a nice meat shield to target fire the Overseer's.
Gas Break Down for Colossus = 100 (Robo) + 200 (Bay) + 200 (1 Colossus) + 200 (Range) = 700 Gas
Dark Templars = 100 (Citadel thingy I still remember BW name lol) + 250 (Shrine) + 125 (Dark Templar) = 475 Gas
The difference is 225 in tech/upgrades and for 1 unit of each. This should allow you to get storm in time when it should count. This also doesn't take into account the mineral difference which you can use to produce out of 1 or maybe 2 more gates.
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On September 30 2010 02:15 unaliased wrote:
Pheonixes are broken since patch 1.1.1. You'll need super high APM to use them for anything but AA since you have to manually cancel gravaton beam after the targeted unit dies.
Yeah its a pain, but its not TOO hard to simply hit escape after each kill to cancel the beam. Realistically this only affects Drone killing. Queens die right about when the beam would end anyway and OL killing is obviously the same.
I suppose if you were trying to use your phoenix group to help stop a ling rush it would have a bigger impact. But that requires high APM anyway and most players are probably better off focusing their attention on their ground army.
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wow. looking at the reps with a friend and fangirling hardcore
(we're both cellawerra fans) ahaha.
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I've done the same sort of build several times, but I've been shifting towards building only a single phoenix v zerg. It can hit overlords, scout, and hopefully cause an overreaction via hydralisks, in which case, yep, you just go straight into collosi like you said.
Do you stop after 5 phoenixes? Also, I think probably the biggest issue would be a well-executed timing push to take advantage of the fact you have to sacrifice ground forces for phoenixes.
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On September 30 2010 03:36 DeckOneBell wrote:
I've done the same sort of build several times, but I've been shifting towards building only a single phoenix v zerg. It can hit overlords, scout, and hopefully cause an overreaction via hydralisks, in which case, yep, you just go straight into collosi like you said.
Do you stop after 5 phoenixes? Also, I think probably the biggest issue would be a well-executed timing push to take advantage of the fact you have to sacrifice ground forces for phoenixes.
I believe he said earlier he stops at 5 unless Mutas.
As for the timing push, proper turtling with force fields completely negates that I think. Your opponent is going to have to push with ground since you already established air superiority, which means you can simply FF him out while you build a ground force yourself. Once a couple of Collosi are out, you push back and expo. At least that's how its played out for me trying this build.
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I've been doing this sort of build alot vs zerg too; I do 2 gateway 1 stargate zelot/phoenix then transition to collosi when the z gets heavy hydra. I've found this build to be somewhat susceptible to either early roach or a midgame roach/hydra combo before you transition to a robo build. It also depends alot on the success of your early phoenix harass
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Well thanks to the new pheonix bug this build is basically useless for now, hehe.
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Air support combined with a strong warpgate push works wonders against zerg. but honestly i would not suggest going just one gate straight into stargate, you really don't want to lose your ground units to zerg and be left chasing down a mass of speedlings with a few phoenix or voidrays. Here's a game i had against Z where i think i played it perfect, i had all the right counters for everything the Z had to come at me with; a few gates coupled with void ray and phoenix play (1100 diamond at the moment, admittedly delta quad is a bad map for zerg, but it's a good game i had, let me know how i did!)
edit* sorry for repost, meant to edit instead of quote -_-
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OP, I used to to do this strategy every game vs zerg , and it worked every time he didn't roach push. It's funny, because I would wait until four phoenixes too (four phoenixes is the minimum to kill a queen in one graviton beam). I problem was, every time the zerg got even reasonably fast roaches, i would lose to his push. One sentry is not enough, and the phoenixes are not out by the time he's at my front. How do you deal with roaches?
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On September 30 2010 04:33 Hooblagoo wrote:
OP, I used to to do this strategy every game vs zerg , and it worked every time he didn't roach push. It's funny, because I would wait until four phoenixes too (four phoenixes is the minimum to kill a queen in one graviton beam). I problem was, every time the zerg got even reasonably fast roaches, i would lose to his push. One sentry is not enough, and the phoenixes are not out by the time he's at my front. How do you deal with roaches?
I would definitely try my best to keep my scout probe alive to see fast roaches. If that is the case I would cronoboost a void ray out before phoenix.
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Pheonix harass is why I steal gas as zerg now
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If zerg steals my gas I just build a lot of zealots and expand and get lots of blink stalkers. No point in freaking out trying to continue on a gas heavy build if he steals your geyser. yuo can always put down a 2nd gas early too and just not mine it til you are ready. I do this if the drone is headed towards the geyser if I really want to do a gas heavy build.
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On September 30 2010 07:54 Mokkal wrote:
If zerg steals my gas I just build a lot of zealots and expand and get lots of blink stalkers. No point in freaking out trying to continue on a gas heavy build if he steals your geyser. yuo can always put down a 2nd gas early too and just not mine it til you are ready. I do this if the drone is headed towards the geyser if I really want to do a gas heavy build.
Pretty much this. The one time I had a zerg double gas steal I just immediately plopped down another gateway, pumped 3-4 zealots and rushed him. He's down 150 minerals for the gas steal+2 drones. There's no way he also has an early pool and enough minerals to stop a rush.
If he only stole one gas, then you can mine pleanty off the other one until getting a zealot to clear the other node.
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Nony i uses this also. I have tried so many times with this build because i hate mutalisks it usually ends up 2 ways Mass zergling overruns my forces because i go 1 gateway 1 stargate. Or mass hydralisk b4 i can tech to collosus. Or i win because they are to slow to react but i notice alot more now that Zergs get more queens.
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On October 01 2010 02:03 Proto_Protoss wrote:
Nony i uses this also. I have tried so many times with this build because i hate mutalisks it usually ends up 2 ways Mass zergling overruns my forces because i go 1 gateway 1 stargate. Or mass hydralisk b4 i can tech to collosus. Or i win because they are to slow to react but i notice alot more now that Zergs get more queens.
How exactly do these forces do you in? I've been trying this build a good amount and I haven't lost before I could get Collosi out yet (although I have lost after), but maybe Z is doing something to you that they aren't doing to me.
When doing this build you are very short on a gateway force, but a few sentries can keep out a ling rush, bling bust or hydra force. As long as you made your first sentry relatively early it should have enough juice to wall in while you warp a few more in. Then just keep FFing and making zealots while your collosus finishes.
I'm only 1k diamond, so maybe you are facing Z that do something in response to this I haven't seen.
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What is your response if zerg simply gets corrupters? They stop phoenix play stone cold and preempt the colossus transition at the same time. This would make HT play more appealing, but it would at least seem to me at first blush that some sort of ling/roach/corrupter push could come before storm is out, and storm wouldn't be great vs. roaches to begin with.
I know that sounds like a theoretical objection, but I've had one or two losses vs zerg who respond to phoenix with their own corrupters. I love the phoenix play vs zerg personally, but those corrupters are just so brutal that I'd really like a plan B to transition to if they show up. The only move I can really think of would be two stargate voidray (carrier, even?) and just go for a massive air-based play. Have you run into corrupter responses like this minigun?
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I like to get two gates with one gas before throwing down a stargate.... Then I get up to about 6 zealots and pressure their expo while the third phoenix finishes and hopefully the zeals stayed alive and let me put the phoenixes in the mineral line. Generally lets me get the queen before I really have to worry about taking damage. then I just go for workers and use my next 2 phoenixes to snipe ovies
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Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game
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On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game
Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ .
Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it
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as a zerg i usually just build one or two spores at the mineral line and maybe an extra queen or two and expand again and keep macroing roaches, the key i think is to not overreact. i usually then tech to mutas unless they have ALOT of phoenixes, adnif that happens ling/roach/ w/ some hydra can usually power though them when they attempt to expand.
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It's nice, might wanna try that as soon as phoenixes aren't bugged anymore 
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On October 01 2010 04:23 MalVortex wrote:
What is your response if zerg simply gets corrupters? They stop phoenix play stone cold and preempt the colossus transition at the same time. This would make HT play more appealing, but it would at least seem to me at first blush that some sort of ling/roach/corrupter push could come before storm is out, and storm wouldn't be great vs. roaches to begin with.
I know that sounds like a theoretical objection, but I've had one or two losses vs zerg who respond to phoenix with their own corrupters. I love the phoenix play vs zerg personally, but those corrupters are just so brutal that I'd really like a plan B to transition to if they show up. The only move I can really think of would be two stargate voidray (carrier, even?) and just go for a massive air-based play. Have you run into corrupter responses like this minigun?
-Nothing is forcing you to attack the corruptors with your phoenixes head on.
-You can still harass w/ phoenixes since corruptors are slow.
-You can still focus fire their mutas with your phoenixes even with corruptors there.
-Corruptors actually do less dps to phoenixes than mutas do (if you count bounce damage), yet are more expensive.
-Realize it's not very feasible to harass with a muta/corruptor army because corruptors are again, slow, which is basically mutas main strength as a unit.
If they go with a heavy corruptor comp for some illogical reason then just smash them w/ 6 gateways. You don't even need colossi b/c they will be spread very thin from the gas costs of the corruptors. You have to realize the phoenix are mainly there to scout, harass, and deter mutas harass, all of which can still be done regardless if corruptors are in play. You aren't massing phoenix here, they are a transition unit.
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Hey, after watching the 45 minute replay on Xel'Naga Caverns, I have a little tid-bit. You had templars for the push at around 28:00, and he had a big army of corrupters that demolished your colossi.
Every single one of those corrupters, all 10 or 12 of them, had 200/200 energy. You could have feedback demolished his entire corrupter army, and kept your colossi alive to keep dealing with the ground.
Just something to think about
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On October 01 2010 06:28 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ . Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it
Psssh, you are good. Its always easy to spot problems in anyones play as an outsider though. Easy to say but hard to do is the way of starcraft lol.
I had that problem too, still do sometimes but I started hotkeying my forge to like 7 or 8 (w/e not used) and even if i don't use the key at least I can see it on my bar as a little mental reminder. Its really useful imo.
Could always build 2 forges if u fall behind :D usually have a mineral surplus anyway towards the late game
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On October 01 2010 07:34 Gnial wrote:Hey, after watching the 45 minute replay on Xel'Naga Caverns, I have a little tid-bit. You had templars for the push at around 28:00, and he had a big army of corrupters that demolished your colossi. Every single one of those corrupters, all 10 or 12 of them, had 200/200 energy. You could have feedback demolished his entire corrupter army, and kept your colossi alive to keep dealing with the ground. Just something to think about
You are correct, I probably was just in the heat of the moment and enjoying the battle . But thanks for the tip, Once they get 10+ corrupters I usually just let the colossus die since there is little hope in saving them.
On October 01 2010 13:00 CurLy[] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 06:28 Minigun wrote:On October 01 2010 05:33 CurLy[] wrote:
Phoenix openers are a lot of fun, i suggest you guys watch the replay vs the 2k zerg, really shows how to stop them late game
about the Replays:
Cellawerras baneling control was pretty terrible that game though, he wasted like 5 banelings on one stalker instead of hitting the minerals, but had no answer to void so you would have won regardless imo
The other game was awesome though I really enjoyed watching it. Great strat great replay, love the HT's to respond to corruptors // hydra ball
You really were behind that entire game, poor zerg.
The only thing i'd say is upgrades dude that forge was chillin all game Yeah I know, one of my problems is I forget to upgrade units, just the zerg was hitting me left and right so I was all flustard ^_^ . Feel free to criticize my awful play, I can take it Psssh, you are good. Its always easy to spot problems in anyones play as an outsider though. Easy to say but hard to do is the way of starcraft lol. I had that problem too, still do sometimes but I started hotkeying my forge to like 7 or 8 (w/e not used) and even if i don't use the key at least I can see it on my bar as a little mental reminder. Its really useful imo. Could always build 2 forges if u fall behind :D usually have a mineral surplus anyway towards the late game
Good idea .
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Bump, you can even get this to work with the bug around. It's working better now that I've refined the build a bit.
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i respect your effort to write this build order up, but your replays show not in the slightest that this is a good build
1. replay you practically void ray rush a zerg who baneling allins .. nothing to see there
2. replay i only watched it till minute 19, why the zerg didnt absolutly wreck you by then is beyond me, it was definitely not cause of your good play.
by the time your 4 phoenix was out, he had a expansion full running pumping zerglings and roaches, he could have just killed you right there or denied your expansion.
show me a replay where you actually play against a decent zerg who not allin on you ..
i can see this build working, if someone with really decent apm do it, cause you have to macro really hard while harrassing.
killing some drones and overlords just doesnt cut it, if the zerg has a expansion full running..
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On October 04 2010 08:36 phil.ipp wrote:
i respect your effort to write this build order up, but your replays show not in the slightest that this is a good build
1. replay you practically void ray rush a zerg who baneling allins .. nothing to see there
2. replay i only watched it till minute 19, why the zerg didnt absolutly wreck you by then is beyond me, it was definitely not cause of your good play.
by the time your 4 phoenix was out, he had a expansion full running pumping zerglings and roaches, he could have just killed you right there or denied your expansion.
show me a replay where you actually play against a decent zerg who not allin on you ..
i can see this build working, if someone with really decent apm do it, cause you have to macro really hard while harrassing.
killing some drones and overlords just doesnt cut it, if the zerg has a expansion full running..
Okay, before you start saying this build sucks, please give a link to your profile, so I can see what I am dealing with skillwise, for all I know you could be a 21-28 bronze player.
In the replay with cella, I was simply showing it can survive an all in with minimal units.
No one is forcing you to use this build, all I can say is it works for me against 1800+ zergs, but hey, you are right, it sucks.
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i didnt want to offend you man,
you survived an banling bust, ok but i cant think of a build (fast expand builds excluded) that doesnt survive a banling bust, all you need is a wallin, sentry and some gateway units, which is all pretty standard in the most builds .. but ok i give it to you, that build is not some over risky allin build you showed that.
but the second replay is just not suitable to show anything
watch the replay again
some highlights:
at the time you moved out with your 4 phoenixes -> zerg was 20 food ahead of you
at the time your first phoenix harass was done and you flew back -> zerg was 30 food ahead of you
you expanded with a force of 4 stalker 2 zealots and 2 sentrys while the zerg had in his base 20 ! lings 9 roaches and 1 hydra ( more hydras on the way )
only god knows why he stayed in his base with that force maybe he thought the roaches and lings can help him with the phoenixes
at minute 15, he is on 3 bases and you on 1, he is nearly 60 food ahead of you with double income
there i stopped viewing.
if you won in the end, i congratulate you, but i hope you can see that this has nothing to do with your inital build..
if i have to jugde your build by this replay the only thing that i can think of is, this is not a save build at all. you had luck and didnt get totally crushed in the first 15 minutes, after that the zerg couldnt make use of his advantage.
i dont say that build sucks, but maybe you want to provide some other replays
and no you dont need my profile.
actually why dont you ask the other guys who like this strategy for their profile?
maybe they are all bronze and like your strategy only cause of that :D
EDIT: finished the replay, this zerg played awful ( no disrespect ) his timings, when he attacked, where he attacked, his unit composition and of course his micro .. this game had nothing to do with balance..
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added some more relevant replays
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How does this work against a zerg who gets 4-5 queens?
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On October 06 2010 03:00 pwadoc wrote:
How does this work against a zerg who gets 4-5 queens?
It fails.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/e7xxly
I'm gold and the other guy is platinum. He went 4 phoenix and harassed my OLs, but he was not able to take my queens. I never tech switched from mass lings. I think he was waiting for me to go hydras.
I think he lost the game only due to bad last second sentry micro than the strategy being bad, but I was able to hold my own against him. Had I expanded, I would have lost due to only 2-3 queens per base which are easily gravitoned.
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What if the zerg responds with infestors or corruptors instead of hydras? Mostly worried about infestors - fungal growth + minimal anti air will ruin a phoenix's day. Their range is so short that if they're quick and you dont see+pick up an infestor right away, you'll never get away. Just like 1 spore colony + fungal kills a phoenix.
Granted, phoenix pick off stray infestors pretty easily.
But the scary part is that infestors are generally followed up with ultras, and zerg can handle immortals very easily when the protoss doesn't have a big gateway army to help out the immortals.
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This build is nothing new. It's basically a twist on Void ray FE (aka protoss 1/1/1 or 2/1/1 vs zerg). I prefer voids over phoenix because it grants ability to charge up and do more serious damage (i.e. kill tech) and it allows you to defend against heavy roach pressure where Phoenix FE will not. You can also end the game against an unprepared opponent. Voids also allow you to run around killing creep tumors with an obs when your robo is done - minimizing the effectiveness of their hydra.
Of course, Phoenix has obvious advantages such as better scouting and is more likely to force Hydra tech. However, to FE with this build safely you'll sometimes need cannons and sim-city because there's a large window where an aggressive zerg can push to end the game or at least deny your expo.
I think people should experiment with a mix of Phoenix and Voids. Obviously, both are on the same tech tree but there could be a useful synergy with the two combined (i.e. Phoenix lifting queen and Void charging and focusing it down as a simple example).
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if the zerg goes infestors, i suggest going mass gateway units with hts. they're effective even before storm is done as you can feedback the shit out of the infestors.
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On October 06 2010 03:26 asdfTT123 wrote:
This build is nothing new. It's basically a twist on Void ray FE (aka protoss 1/1/1 or 2/1/1 vs zerg). I prefer voids over phoenix because it grants ability to charge up and do more serious damage (i.e. kill tech) and it allows you to defend against heavy roach pressure where Phoenix FE will not. You can also end the game against an unprepared opponent. Voids also allow you to run around killing creep tumors with an obs when your robo is done - minimizing the effectiveness of their hydra.
Of course, Phoenix has obvious advantages such as better scouting and is more likely to force Hydra tech. However, to FE with this build safely you'll sometimes need cannons and sim-city because there's a large window where an aggressive zerg can push to end the game or at least deny your expo.
I think people should experiment with a mix of Phoenix and Voids. Obviously, both are on the same tech tree but there could be a useful synergy with the two combined (i.e. Phoenix lifting queen and Void charging and focusing it down as a simple example).
Voids and phoenix are not the same thing, since when are there too many guides?
Voids are basically useless, if they got more than two queens which most seem to do, 5 phoenix can take on 4 queens, if they have 2 at one base and two at another, as long as you strike them fast, and pick up the 2nd one before he transfuses, with micro.
I much prefer phoenix, to force hydras, and not do a basically all in with voids. If they only made two queens it's basically a game over.
You can hold off the attacks just long enough to get a colos out, the only times I lose my nat is when I forget to put down a robo bay while using phoenix (especially with this new bug)
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Also why do you opt for stalker before sentry? I realize I'm nitpicking your build but isn't sentry first the safer option esp against ling pressure?
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On October 06 2010 03:36 asdfTT123 wrote:
Also why do you opt for stalker before sentry? I realize I'm nitpicking your build but isn't sentry first the safer option esp against ling pressure?
That was my question as well. I've not played this build out, but maybe it's to use the gas elsewhere?
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On October 06 2010 03:36 asdfTT123 wrote:
Also why do you opt for stalker before sentry? I realize I'm nitpicking your build but isn't sentry first the safer option esp against ling pressure?
I like denying that overlord that always comes, if early pressure does come you can pull off a few probes, but I've never needed too.
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I love doing this build, but I feel that a 12/13 or 10/10 gate opening is more effective, as it stops the zerg from droning hard in the first few minutes. I don't know how many time I have showed zealots only to watch the zerg cancel their hatch and transition to a 1 base play. phoenix stomps 1 base play. Also, I have found ht/dt/archon to be extremely effective against zerg with feedback/phoenix to snipe overseers, the DTs chew through Roach/Hydra without detection, and the phoenix do very well against mutas.
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can phoenix pick up burrowed units? If not, I feel like burrow would pretty much negate phoenix harass.
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On October 06 2010 03:40 Quepp42 wrote:
can phoenix pick up burrowed units? If not, I feel like burrow would pretty much negate phoenix harass.
I would prefer it if he tried to burrow his drones every time I came by.
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On September 30 2010 04:21 Minigun wrote:
Well thanks to the new pheonix bug this build is basically useless for now, hehe.
Yeah.... are they planning on fixing that or is this just a new thing we have to do now?
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On October 06 2010 03:49 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2010 04:21 Minigun wrote:
Well thanks to the new pheonix bug this build is basically useless for now, hehe. Yeah.... are they planning on fixing that or is this just a new thing we have to do now?
I'm sure it will be fixed, whether it's patch 1.04 or 1.47 who knows.
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the strategy in his basic is not bad.
the basic idea of this strategy is for me, i build phoenixes so i have map control and the zerg will think twice about going mutas. then i switch to collosi and from there on i have a good chance of winning.
what i would question is building 4-5 or more phoenixes
cause all it will do is slow the zerg down but it also slows you down from getting fast to collosi
1-2 phoenixes sends the message: i have map control, i will know if you switch to mutas, and i will add a second stargate and stomp you if you do it. then i kill 2-3 overlords and 2-3 drones - so that the phoenixes are worth the money.
with 4-5 phoenixes i think i would give the zerg a bigger window where he can just overrun me with lings and roaches .. or he sees you commited heavily on phoenixes so he just expands a third time, either way you get screwed.
also 1-2 phoenixes can be handled from a player below 100 apm cause they dont have to do much damage, just fly with them around sometime.
4-5 phoenixes have to do much more damage and cause of that need much more attention, and you have to expand and macro hard in the meantime, all that need apm apm apm ..
im not saying more phoenixes are bad, but you should only build more than 2 if you know you have the apm to really do damage and macro at the same time.
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One of the big advantages of this build is that your map control delays the third expo of the zerg. Furthermore u deny the possiblity of mutas and forces hydras, which can be hard countered.
But i have some questions:
In your replays u always pick up the queens first. Don't u think it is more wise to go straight for the drones, especially when he has more than one queen at his hatch? If that's the case u could move out already with your 3. pheonix. Sure killing a queen is good, but for zerg it is not such a huge loss. And like u said even with two queens, with proper micro u can go in and pick up 2-3 drones every time.
To the phoenix bug: can someone confirm it really is a bug and not the original intention of blizzard? For blizzard to make such a mistake....
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
Surprisingly, it can hold vs this too. I've been trying this out a lot lately and if your probe sees 1 base play, all you need to do is build void rays instead of phoenixes. They're on one hatch and can't build queens fast enough and you're mostly likely going to be able to stall long enough with forcefeilds/wallin for the voids to clean up their 5rr.
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In the replay against lost, i assume that 2nd robo bay was a mistake? still watching through almost done
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On October 06 2010 07:52 SONE wrote:
In the replay against lost, i assume that 2nd robo bay was a mistake? still watching through almost done
yeah just a retarded moment
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On October 06 2010 04:16 phil.ipp wrote:
the strategy in his basic is not bad.
the basic idea of this strategy is for me, i build phoenixes so i have map control and the zerg will think twice about going mutas. then i switch to collosi and from there on i have a good chance of winning.
what i would question is building 4-5 or more phoenixes
cause all it will do is slow the zerg down but it also slows you down from getting fast to collosi
1-2 phoenixes sends the message: i have map control, i will know if you switch to mutas, and i will add a second stargate and stomp you if you do it. then i kill 2-3 overlords and 2-3 drones - so that the phoenixes are worth the money.
with 4-5 phoenixes i think i would give the zerg a bigger window where he can just overrun me with lings and roaches .. or he sees you commited heavily on phoenixes so he just expands a third time, either way you get screwed.
also 1-2 phoenixes can be handled from a player below 100 apm cause they dont have to do much damage, just fly with them around sometime.
4-5 phoenixes have to do much more damage and cause of that need much more attention, and you have to expand and macro hard in the meantime, all that need apm apm apm ..
im not saying more phoenixes are bad, but you should only build more than 2 if you know you have the apm to really do damage and macro at the same time.
4-5 is the optimum here, I usually go for 4. The queen is also a high priority hereto slow down the zerg production, and it's still entirely possible, even easy, to hold your base while doing it. Phoenix can always lift some of the roaches should he try to push.
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Thanks for the post, very helpful for me. I've been getting trashed in PvZ lately... the replay vs Dhalsim was pretty epic. All game it seemed like you were behind, so it was inspiring to watch as a 1100 toss player. Keeping the harassing phoenixes alive seemed essential, so you could use them to pick up hydras when the zerg attacked early. This is where I've gone wrong with this build in the past-- my harass didn't do enough damage and then I'm left trying to fend off a ground attack when I've spent money on phoenixes that got killed. My other mistake has been going overlord hunting with only 1-2 phoenix built, giving my opponent time to get more queens or spore colonies.
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Been working with this build a lot lately, and I seem to have found a really nice followup to it: island expanding.
The one thing I didn't like about this build was the need to wait to expand, which upped the damage you need to do in order to keep level and start teching. Nothing Z has after a phoenix opener can really break your front ramp, but as soon as you expand you better have Collosi.
What I did was cut out the 5th phoenix, and throw a robo down after the 4th. Pumping out a warp prism and expanding to an Island while harrassing. This accomplished 3 things:
1. Gave me an expansion that Z would need air, which I already established dominance over, to attack.
2. Allowed me to skimp on a ground army and tech harder for longer, using sentries to hold my ramp.
3. Removed some of Z's drive to expand like crazy since he thought I was on 1 base for longer.
Of course it only works on certain maps, but it seems pretty foolproof on those. Unless there's some obvious counter to it I'm missing?
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Been doing this for a while with a very very good results. I agree with minigun that 5 is a very good number. Large enough to kill queens within one graviton beam quickly and being able to kill OLs that quickly is a super helpful thing, even if it delays robo a little more.
I just played a match with my practice partner with the guy assuming that I'll go phoenix and I still won thanks to colossi. He fast teched to hydra to stop my phoenixes but they are too slow and I was about to siege the map and kill all the stranded OLs, giving me lots of time since it constantly kept him supply blocked and had him waste min/drone on spores. And once you start pumping colossi from double robo, shit is OVER
This is a great build that I've been doing sloppy and it's great to see it working so well.
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Never lost to the colossus version of this, but the DT one is mean. If a zerg decides that your stargate tech makes you an easy kill you can't make enough colossi/gateway units to deal with the hydras he'll just mass and throw at you, but you can get DTs, hunt for overseers with your phoenixes, kill them, and now the hydras can't even shoot your combat unit. The best thing I can do is put an overseer nice and safe in the middle of my hydra ball to make my attack killer but I can't protect overseers in my base when I move out, so DTs can just march in and cut everything to ribbons and I have to attempt a base trade which as always a clusterfuck. Fuck, hide the dark shrine and by the time it's revealed it's too late for the zerg.
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The key is that you wait until there's 4 phoenix before you push out. I've experimented with this and I would always move with 2 with more making. If you go with 2 you tip that you have them and give the zerg time to get sufficient counters out before you can really do a decent amount of damage so waiting til there's 4 is probably optimal. I'll try this on ladder later.
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with enough ling harass, this strategy blows up. coming from a zerg, i would always tell a toss to make 2 zealots before doing anything else if you are going blind. or just wall completely with chronoboosted ranged unit then shoot it down when you are ready to move out. mass ling can just run all over you. you arent going to be doing anything with ground units anyway so why be significantly weaker for 100 minerals. i feel voidray is more viable than this. you can abuse the fact that zergs will refuse to put up a AA for a drone i suppose.
i get so giddy when i see a cyber core go down early. as z i go 14/13 gas-pool 13 drone 14 drone overlord 6 ling, queen, pump lings, hatch when you get 300. you can take down zealot if he isn't good at micro or take down the pylon with two lings (p has to wall with zealot), wait for zealot to stop the 2 lings from killing it then rush in and harass like hell or get more surface area on zealot. zerg just has to keep pressuring while p has to try significantly harder to defend
i would suggest something more than just a zealot in that early timing. the singular zealot will be useless or dead against speedlings and your stalker will get crushed by rallied speedlings
needs to be a relatively far rush distance then it's more powerful.
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With the new patch and range 4 roaches, would this be a viable opening if you are scouting for a roach warren while the first phoenix is coming out? If you see a roach warren, switching to void rays seems a lot stronger than staying on just gateway units. And if there are no roaches, and just muta/ling, then continuing as normal on this build seems pretty good.
Thoughts?
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On October 19 2010 03:34 kevmo wrote:
With the new patch and range 4 roaches, would this be a viable opening if you are scouting for a roach warren while the first phoenix is coming out? If you see a roach warren, switching to void rays seems a lot stronger than staying on just gateway units. And if there are no roaches, and just muta/ling, then continuing as normal on this build seems pretty good.
Thoughts?
I do this in PvZ all the time and yes, if there is a roach warren I do Void Rays. You can't really win the game right there, but it forces the Zerg to stop what he is doing and get more queens or evo/spores right away. This whole window is supposed to allow you to expand, but some zerg attack which becomes hard to deal with.
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On September 29 2010 02:26 Minigun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2010 02:23 kcdc wrote:
Couple questions:
That's a late zealot. I assume you adjust pretty substantially against 10-12 pools.
1gate into stargate seems pretty risky defensively, even with a choke to help. You're also not rushing for a sentry by any means, and I doubt you'll have gas for a second sentry before early timing attacks from Z. How do you fare against speedling all-ins? Baneling busts? 5 RR or roach all-ins?
Also, do you stop building phoenixes at 4 unless you scout spire? Well if I see a early pool I adjust accordingly blocking with probes if needed. Watch the replay vs cellawerra, he attemps quite a few baneling busts and I hold with very minimal units. It holds vs baneling busts if micro'd correctly. I stop at 5, unless mutas. This build is also meant for expanding zergs, not one base plays. I probably should have specified that. I don't think it can hold vs a 5 rr all ins.
If you see 5RR, with ur phoenix, quickly cb a void ray?
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If you send your first phoenix out to scout, the whole element of surprise is gone. Thats not the point of this build as far as I understand. He can make enough queens and spore crawlers for your final 4 phoenixes that way.
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re: roaches
Would you recommend stationing a void ray along with your ground army to help hold off any kind of pressure at your front?
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On October 19 2010 07:22 rozina wrote:
If you send your first phoenix out to scout, the whole element of surprise is gone. Thats not the point of this build as far as I understand. He can make enough queens and spore crawlers for your final 4 phoenixes that way.
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant scout with a probe or stalker WHILE the phoenix is building, so you know if you should be switching to void rays.
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why do you 12 gate, it almost always makes you cut that probe
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do you think it is viable on maps with backdoor, like blistering?
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I've been trying work something like this out, as my standard build agianst zerg. But most Z players go for hydra+roach so it's not the best strat anymore
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A Zerg player cannot effectively do Hydra/Roach on 1 base, so they have to expand. The stargate units come before hydras
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Seems strange vs a non aggressive P like this i expand at 15 double queen and lair right after queen pops, I am not sure on phoenix timings but 2 voids come right as my hydras about to pop so i assume 4 phoenixes would come later. Usually when i do get hurt by phoenixes is when i get early pressured and then hit by phoenixes and i was slowed down too much to have hydras out. Once i get home i ll check out the replays to see what zerg are doing that makes them take alot of damage from this, given that all these guys are much better zerg then me, i am roughly 1500 right now.
On top of that i have killed quite a few P (obviosly not 2k) but 14-1500 who when phoenixes with this set up, where once i fend of phoenixes i pump out hydra roach and hit them before first collosi is out. Teching strait to Collosi after 4-5 phoenixes leaves P with fairly small gate unit count so they just die unless my economy was hurt too much. Chances are they just making a mistake somewhere and thus dont have enough forces, but it does seem resonable since you have 4-5 phoenixes which are hardly amazing vs 12 or so hydras and a lot of money spent on expo/collosi tech.
And what is up with all the talk about forces zerg to put hydra den... Unless i am mistaken hydra roach/corruptors are just fine set up vs P. I prefer it to muta ling to be honest, but that is mostly because it fits my macro play, and i love hydras and cant use them in zvt and my zvz never get to lair.
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I treat this build like I treat mutas in terms of pheonix production. Build 3-4 pheonix, harass, if it is being effective, build a couple more phoenix and continue, else techswitch to either templar or robo.
I do similar things when I am playing zerg, Mutas, harass, if effective build more, else switch into hydra/roach.
The point if this build is to prevent muta harass by forcing hydra, allowing you to follow up with Zealot/HT or Robo tech, which is quite string against hydras.
Personally I find Hydras a lot easier to deal with than mutas as P. So I like to open stargate so I ahve to deal with mutas less.
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As far as transitioning goes, you know a zerg is going 5RR or roach all in if hes going 13 pool 13 gas.
With this scouting information, good strategy has room for dynamic gameplay.
As far as mass roach spam goes, protoss MUST eventually switch to robo tech and get that immort out, this will take away from air play, but its a must.
You can defend a 5RR with a sentry alone with good enough control, split as they try running up the ramp, and even roaches with range 4 the stalkers can focus fire the seperated units.
The sentry also prevents ling reinforcements should the zerg go all in.
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I meet a lot of zergs lately and I have some problems with the ones that tech really fast. Most of them go early hatch (15-23 or so) and just make 2-6 lings and then go straight to lair and have hydras or mutas out before my 4th phoenix is out. I feel like that zergs don't fear any early agression so they just skip the army and go for tech.
What should I do in terms of this build? I tryed to do some early pressure with 2 zealots and 2 stalkers one game witch was nice (killed an ovie) until a bunch of speedlings came out and killed them all I know i could have macroed that game better and saved my expansion, since he went muta zergling and phoenixes cleaned mutas. However, I understand this build's point is to make zerg go hydras. In my case, mutas and my phoenixes came out at the same time.
Any tips are welcome
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Wouldn't it be quicker to expand after your initial harass? Sure, it is risky, but your output will be substantially increased once the minerals kick in.
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On October 20 2010 07:23 rozina wrote:I meet a lot of zergs lately and I have some problems with the ones that tech really fast. Most of them go early hatch (15-23 or so) and just make 2-6 lings and then go straight to lair and have hydras or mutas out before my 4th phoenix is out. I feel like that zergs don't fear any early agression so they just skip the army and go for tech. What should I do in terms of this build? I tryed to do some early pressure with 2 zealots and 2 stalkers one game witch was nice (killed an ovie) until a bunch of speedlings came out and killed them all I know i could have macroed that game better and saved my expansion, since he went muta zergling and phoenixes cleaned mutas. However, I understand this build's point is to make zerg go hydras. In my case, mutas and my phoenixes came out at the same time. Any tips are welcome
If you deny scouting with your stalker and build your stargate in the middle of your base zergs will tend to think it's some kind of 4 gate opening a lot of the time and they'll definitely build some roaches or lings with a couple of spinecrawlers.
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Not at all. Lately they seem to just skip the army. I just played a guy today, where i tryed to block his expo with a pylon. He just made 2 zerglings to kill it and then went straight to lair and hydras. By the time my 4 phoenixes came, he had 6 or so hydras. My phoenixes were pretty useless
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although the OP is far better than me, I can't see this build work if the opponent reachts properly aka quickly gets a third and goes straight to hydras - in one of the games the OP was actually behind due to the phoenix-harass doing very little damage and fought his way back out of the hole he has dug himself
imo you pretty much need a 2nd base faster, or mass-anything will kill you; currently I'm testing the 2-fast-stalker opening (as seen eg. from nexgenius in his opening gsl-match) into a fairly fast expo into stargate; if zerg did go for fast hydras then you are still better off just taking the map and denying overlords compared to the one gate stargate opening, since the faster 2nd base allows for a much smoother transition into colossi
if it works for the OP it's great, would love to see some post patch reps though
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Phoenixes are money i swear by them they do worlds of damage to Zerg econ. i like 1 gate stargate on certain maps scrap station is ideal, plenty of distance ground, close air distance and easy natural. it also forces hydras which makes collossi transitions seamless.
\that being said FE into double stargate for phoenix is pretty great check this out for some inspiration
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On October 22 2010 18:37 johngalt90 wrote:
\that being said FE into double stargate for phoenix is pretty great check this out for some inspiration
without watching the rep I have to agree that shakuras is one of the most perfect maps for phoenixes - simply because all bases after the natural are so wide spread that zerg just "can't" be everywhere at once
if you pin zerg down with phoenixes you have ages to tech to colossi and an awsome ramp to stop any early tries
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can someone post some pro replays please? (top level, not diamond)
I think 1 basing toss is not frightening for zerg once the 4gate timing is past. Roach range makes this worse. If I were to use phoenix I would do it after I have secured an expo
i would love to be proven wrong by some pro level replays~ post away!
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On October 22 2010 19:09 wxwx wrote:can someone post some pro replays please? (top level, not diamond) I think 1 basing toss is not frightening for zerg once the 4gate timing is past. Roach range makes this worse. If I were to use phoenix I would do it after I have secured an expo i would love to be proven wrong by some pro level replays~ post away!
No one does 1 base Phoenix anymore. But you have to take into mind, the opening post was made 3 weeks ago. A more modern version would be 2 base Phoenix.
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I'd like to thank minigun again for giving us Toss a solid strat for facing zerg. You abuse the power of phoenixes over overlords and can expand through the harass. You aren't forced to expand early to keep up with the zerg, which in turn makes your single gateway units very powerful on the ramp.
Here's a replay for all you low-mid Protoss players wondering how this works when you aren't solid on all aspects of play. It features
*Probe + Pylon expo delay
*Queen / Sporecrawler defense
*Great units lost tab from 5 phoenix ^.^
Danglars vs. Hrh
1280 diamond vs 1484 diamond Zerg
http://rapidshare.com/files/427000843/PvZ_-_Metalopo_-_Danglars_vs_hrh.SC2Replay
Note: My macro during the harass is incredibly low, and he scouted the build at 3 phoenixes leading to an earlier attack from me. Timings are late due to my execution and the pylon at natural.
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On October 22 2010 19:09 wxwx wrote:can someone post some pro replays please? (top level, not diamond) I think 1 basing toss is not frightening for zerg once the 4gate timing is past. Roach range makes this worse. If I were to use phoenix I would do it after I have secured an expo i would love to be proven wrong by some pro level replays~ post away!
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2336
http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/show/id/2335
Two games from GSL showing FE into 2x stargate phoenix. The protoss is very good.
He goes 15 Nexus because of the two maps but you could do basically the same thing opening FFE or one-gate expand.
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I've been doing a similar build, but incorporating a pylon block against a 14 or 15 hatch. Obviously at your level of play this is harder to pull off but against around 1200-1300 diamond it seems to work ok. Usually the pylon block more than pays for itself and coupled with some ovie snipes, great scouting, no muta worries, i can safely expand and tech to colossus or just win outright with gateway units off 2-3 gates (before expo kicks in too)
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On September 29 2010 05:03 ichangedmyname wrote:
Don't see what the phoenix had to do with the game against CellaWerra. You basically all in'ed a fast void ray against him all'inning a bling bust.
Looked to me like and adjustment of the strategy based on what the opponent did.
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Zerg POV - This strategy is devastating against zerg.
I'm having to modify my opening now when playing protoss, but ultimately I think I'll play this similar to how'd I'd play anyways.
15 hatch / 14 pool / 14 extractor
That's how I open. I'll go straight to roaches usually. Seeing your wall off and not being able to fully detect what you're doing, my opening isn't going to really change.
If you go 4 gates - I want hydra roach
If you go 3 gate/robo - I want hydra roach corruptor
If you go x gate/air - I want hydra roach corruptor
I'm finding now that so many toss are going for phoenix's that it's a must I assume they'll be getting them. There's typically a window before hydras though where I'm vulnerable. I'll usually get a few hydras up about the time I've lost 2 lords and a queen. If I see the toss has FE'd I'll usually have a single spore up in each mineral line and push hydras earlier.
Not sure if this helps you guys. Don't know how most zerg are responding. I'm definitely having to figure out a new way to deal with toss due to heavy phoenix play.
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The reason I've been going heavy phoenix (other than phoenix is my favorite unit) is that mutas are the bane of my existence. If I don't prevent mutas from massing up, I lose every time... phoenix nips that issue in the bud.
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zerg can just mass economy becauseyou have a very small ground army, i dont think this is good
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On October 27 2010 00:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
zerg can just mass economy becauseyou have a very small ground army, i dont think this is good
Its true this leaves Z safe to drone, but it also deals a strong blow to their econ via queen/OL/drone killing. When this is done right I think Toss and Zerg come out roughly even on econ but toss has achieved muta prevention and map control.
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I think this is my first post but uh yea. I'm not that good or anything but even though this build forces zerg to build hydras what if they push out with ling/hydra or roach hydra as you are trying to get ur tech up how do u stop it there. Ive played this build 2-3 times and *high plat* and i figured there was a window where i could push out with my hydras vs it.
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On September 29 2010 02:49 truckerdaves wrote:
phoenixes are devastating Vs Zerg. They do bonus damage to light units (OLs, Hydras, Mutas, lings, drones,) and they do a really good job too. I love phoenix play against zerg and cant wait to try this out
Just clarifying that overlords are armored, not light.
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9 pylon
chrono probes
12 gate
Is it worth chronoboosting the nexus at 11 if you're going to be cutting probe production to get your gate out at 12?
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On October 27 2010 01:13 HECKER wrote:Is it worth chronoboosting the nexus at 11 if you're going to be cutting probe production to get your gate out at 12?
It will build the 11th and 12th probe and then you will put down the gateway if I'm not mistaken. I only play protoss in 2v2 for fun so I'm not sure.
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On September 29 2010 03:24 InZil wrote:
This is NOT the build I use if I see any signs of a rush, I can usually defend against the rush and then I have the advantage anyway, so I don't rush to the air.
Seems like if you scout them one basing and you still want to phoenix harass you could just drop a forge and cannon/block your entrance or mineral lines ( depending on map or whether you FE ). It doesn't take a lot of cannons to stop zerglings especially if there are a couple zealots going. Plus you should have extra mins if you are phoenix heavy.
If they are 6-7 pooling then you definitely have to switch strat anyway.
Depending on the map, cannons can even hold off roach rushing in my experience. If it's roaches, you can also pump out a VR to assist with the defense. All the while harassing with your phoenix.
Minigun how do you adjust when you set out to do this build but scout a 5rr or mass 1 base zerglings?
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On October 27 2010 03:56 Uhh Negative wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2010 01:13 HECKER wrote:9 pylon
chrono probes
12 gate Is it worth chronoboosting the nexus at 11 if you're going to be cutting probe production to get your gate out at 12? It will build the 11th and 12th probe and then you will put down the gateway if I'm not mistaken. I only play protoss in 2v2 for fun so I'm not sure.
Even if you scout on 9 pylon, you won't have enough money till 13 or 14 supply to build your first gateway so you have to cut probe production to get a 12 gate.
The chronoboost will get your 11th and 12th probes out a total of about 15 seconds earlier while the rest of your probes won't be out any earlier. If you go 13 or 14 gate without stopping probe production then all of your probes will be earlier by about 15 seconds, not just your 11th and 12th.
So my question is if using a chrono on the nexus at 11 is really worth it if you are going to be cutting probes at 12?
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On October 27 2010 04:23 HECKER wrote:
So my question is if using a chrono on the nexus at 11 is really worth it if you are going to be cutting probes at 12?
Definetely doesn't make sense to me, as chronoing then forces you to cut probes to drop the gateway. So in the end you have the same number of probes, you just got two slightly faster but used a chrono to do it which could be better used at a time when you don't need to cut probes.
Unless there's something I'm missing?
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dont get that point. chrono boost after pylon finishes, if youre going 12 gate its nearly a fully wasted chrono boost when you start another at 11 (probe should come like 3 seconds earlier for a wasted boost)
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If you have a problem with the 12 gate, why don't you just build your gate at 13 or 14? Honestly, taking a build order so rigidly is pretty stupid, this is an RTS.
12 gate is slightly less economical, 13 gate is economical, and 14 gate is even more economical. It's pretty much up to you for what to do.
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Well, I figured I might bump this becuase of recent events + Show Spoiler +Tyler v Haypro @ PAX East
Is this still the optimum build order or is there a more efficient ( and more macro heavy) version of early pheonix aggression into an FE while teching up to Collosi and amassing the mighty Protoss Deathball.
This just feels so much more pressuring than the 3 gate sentry expand and far more doable on the current map pool...
Also, is it advisable to make a Void Ray if an early roach bust is spotted?
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