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http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967
First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio.
In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion?
So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting.
Perfect execution of an opener.
and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2?
I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard?
I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing.
When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish.
Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad.
But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment.
So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding.
I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have.
Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play.
Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
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Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas.
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I believe you are weak in this match-up.
User was warned for this post
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You have to micro your medivacs to keep them near your marines, one slip up and you just wasted a ton of minerals.
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I suck PvZ compared to my PvT but that doesn't mean PvZ is harder.
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On September 25 2010 10:58 Headshot wrote:
Just because your TvZ is weak doesn't mean that Terran is weak.
You can easily stim micro you bio away from Banelings off of creep, and going more marine-heavy and putting Turrets in good locations around your base nullifies Mutas.
It wont nullify a large amount of muta and ur always going to need marines to defend. It's not cost effective to spam 10 turrets in ur main unless ur on like 4 base. and hes making nothing but muta. And the problem with stimming away from the banes is the mutas take care of whats left behind.
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Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad.
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On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad.
Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble.
But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post.
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Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 10:55 FindingPride wrote:http://starcraft2reps.com/index.php?a=details&id=1967First off i am a terran player and i believe TERRAN is weak in this match-up. I am a 1300 Diamond terran and have played and done well in many many tournaments placing high in each one i play I am also at a 64% win ratio. In this game i go for a opening to play the map spawn. it works perfectly and it booms me way ahead. But the biggest issue in my opinion with this particular game is the fact that I can't take advantage of it. Infact i find it absolutely retarded that i can't. Maybe im just mentally handicapped. I don't know. but after killing a hatch early on then having ur expansion up before your opponent recovers his hatch I think id beable to quite easilly do a follow op on a measly 3rd expansion? So what you will see this game. Perfect Scouting. Perfect execution of an opener. and then my opponent completely denying me of destroying his expansion. Now figuring out why i think is the hardest thing of all. I can't seem to grasp it. Cause honestly it feels like Banelings and mutas out at the same time is kind of like in BW where ur opponent has a huge number of muta and a huge number of lurkers all at once. you cant do anything till u get vessels so u just macro off of 2 base. but what do you do in sc2? I wish i had an easy answer but I don't. Maybe i just retard? I don't really know. But ryze is a great player but what frustrates me about this game is the fact that I can't do any sort of followup. Because the banes completely destroy my army when i move out almost no matter what and the mutas do a great job at containing. When i do my 2nd push on his 3rd you will notice i leave about 3 tanks behind. I do this to deal with any counter attack which i thought was very likely. but even if i brought those tanks. they just would have been dead fish. Alot of people will probably say well Pride why didnt you get medivacs? easy answer. I have played with ryze alot. Hes absolutely marvelous at scouting. They will get denied. and another reason for this is as well is the fact that medivacs Cost minerals. Yes minerals. And minerals not spent in more bio = bad. But ideally medivacs help bio. but what use is bio when it gets 1 shotted by banes? see what im saying. So i usually put the extra minerals by not getting medis twords a faster third or more bio. Which imo is a great investment. So folks my consensus is this. What in fucks name should i do? I see alot of terrans like to mass mech up till 200 and just slowly expand. but I don't like this play. There isn't much opportunity for aggression and you can't punish your opponent for mass expanding. I have one idea right now and one idea only. If it is nearly impossible to do any sort of pressure. I need to invest in a very fast 3rd and medivacs and do my best to turtle my way to 200. What do you all think? Id be curious to see if alot of people have ran into what i have. Notice i did not mention imbalance. If taking a very fast 3rd cause there is no possible way to be aggressive off of 2 base bio vs zerg. that is completely fine If thats how the game should work. But Im trying to figure out if there is any way to make bio work. I don't believe the 200 mech turtle is the way to play. I hate that style of play.Also I don't like to utilize thors vs mutas because i dont feel they are cost effective. They cost a shit ton. And i feel if i skip them i can invest into more bio and a 3rd which i think is far more cost effective.
Just because all you do vs zerg is a bioball doesn't mean it's harder for T in a TvZ. He's obviously just countering what you are so commited to doing. Just because he's countering your play, doesn't mean Terran is at a disadvantage.
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Give it some time, see what you can come up with.
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This just goes to show that the imbalances don't manifest themselves except at the tip top level of players.
EDIT: You just got outplayed. That has nothing to do with balance. Blizzard can't balance, and shouldn't balance, for every skill level.
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Being a former terran player switching to zerg, I think I can help you out here. First off, you have many many options for harassment as a terran versus a zerg. I understand you talk about medivac, marine, and marauder a lot, but there are many units at your disposal. You can open a 5 rax reaper to gain map control early on, you can get a reactor for a fast hellion harass, or you can go banshee harass. All three are very valid options against a zerg.
Doing marine drops with just 8 marines in one medivac is annoying like nothing else. I would hope you can do 2 or three simultaneous drops with 1 medivac each (I'm ~1000 zerg and I average 100 apm with peaks above 300 and I've done it before).
You really got caught off guard in that game. The banelings were on top of your tanks and marines by the time you sieged up. I agree that sling/bling/muta is hard to combat as a terran, but you barely killed anything against his flank.
Your army also had no marauders and a low count of marines in it... you had a lot of resources into the tanks.
You can get creative and make ghosts to snipe the mutas, or you could go hellion/thor (which I still have yet to find a counter to that doesn't involve a lot of infestors). I used to win 95% of my TvZ games before I switched, and now I'd say I'm about 70% against terran as zerg. These two have both been my best matchups (dang protoss and their 4 gate shenanigans!)
It's very winnable either way. That's just my 2 cents.
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On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post.
Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, so whats the difference? Hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals.
And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to.
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blizzard keeps forcing terran to go bio in all 3 match ups and its no fun 
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how on earth can you honestly say medivacs are a bad investment? this statement alone basically sums up the fact that you have no conceptual understanding of terran vs zerg, or anything for that matter.
if a zerg beats you, in this current state of the game, he is superior to you in that game itself, or just as an overall player.
also, use maurauders, and 3-3 marines smash mutalisks into the ground.
MMM tank is all you need in tvz.
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On September 25 2010 11:20 eH wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post. Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, and hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals. And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to.
Not banelings, really. Banelings aren't light, but hellions are. So you could consider banelings a counter TO hellions.
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is awesome32274 Posts
This should be in the strategy section or blogs.
Ill move it to the strategy section, if you want it in blogs, PM me.
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Wrong section imo, anyway he is doing exactly what he needs to counter you. Medivacs do help and micro your rines.
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If you'd have gotten ONE thor you'd have won that.
Also, Maynard some SCVs to your nat .. you had 30 in your main and 13 at your nat, so your income was lower even tho you were 14 workers ahead.
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On September 25 2010 11:22 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 11:20 eH wrote:On September 25 2010 11:11 FindingPride wrote:On September 25 2010 11:09 eH wrote:
Who says you have to turtle up to 200 if you go mech? Nothing stopping you from sending out hellion raiding parties over and over. Personally as zerg when I see bio or biomech I'm happy, when pure mech comes out I'm quite sad. Hellions parties are only ideal at killing drones not expansions. And they are a huge waste of money if they can't accomplish that. I feel with zergs army its very easy to have a very large sense of map awareness especially against Mech builds. And as long as the zerg is good he can take advantage of that and Investments like hellions just dont seem cost effective in this case unless you can manage to drop them. But even then that can be a gamble. But please don't make harsh post without watching the replay and reading my post. Kill drones and the expansion is worthless, and hellions are also amazing at killing lings and banelings, which you seem to be having problems with. When you're going mech gas is by far the limiting factor, and hellions are a nice way to use those extra minerals. And how was my post harsh? You said a couple times you don't want to have to turtle to 200 (somewhat indicative of me reading your post), and I said you don't have to. Not banelings, really. Banelings aren't light, but hellions are. So you could consider banelings a counter TO hellions.
Don't have to be light, banelings have junk hp's, arent nearly as fast, and bunch up like mad. A few hellions properly microed will slaughter them. Yeah, hellions arent quite as good against them as they are against lings, but if he's saccing a bunch of banelings to stop a couple hellions I feel like thats not too bad, its not like hellions are all that hard to come by.
I mean, zerg could commit his whole army to stopping a couple hellions in one place which of course you'll lose to, but what if you send out 2 different hellion control groups?
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EPT
