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It seems my paper is going to be too long, so I will link in to another site when I can.
The following write is a work in progress so forgive me if it is disorganized and poorly expressed. I do not believe a concept like this has even been considered or even discussed yet for zerg.
If you are just going to argue with the paper for the sake of arguing, please control yourself from replying. I would appreciate well thought out and highly detailed counter arguments that are actually logical. Thanks.
The spawning pool is truly the most mysterious building in the game. When it comes to complaints about zerg from the public, I keep running in to the same thing time and time again.
Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack
and gateway then their other offensive unit producers?
What would be an incentive for making more then one spawning pool?
The following is a list of questions to consider before reading about my theory that the spawning pool was suppose to be worth ATLEAST 8 control/supply, if not more.
Zerg start out with an overlord, but the hatchery is only worth 1 food, even though it is 2 food in starcraft 2, the issue is still going to effect zerg's food down
the road, and even to some degree towards the beginning when compared to terrans 10 supply cc and protoss' 9 supply nexus. Because the zerg have the queen now
this means zerg produce less hatcheries in the first place.
If the pool was worth 8 control, it solves some controversial issues. Zerg typically make 1 pool, and so this, even though it occurs at an early point in the game and has
a significant impact down the road, it isn't like additional control was given to the hatchery.
It also solves the controversial of whether zerg was suppose to be an agressive race or a macro defending race. The truth is that they were suppose to be BOTH.
If the pool was worth 8 food, then zerg would make pool then hatchery, and then get overlord, this helps to ensure that the opponent is not getting mineral position
too early, and that zerg is getting natural expansion position early enough.
Anyways, here are the questions.
-Should the spawning pool be worth anywhere from 8-16 supply, considering it is a 200 mineral structure?
-If it does provide atleast 8 control naturally, should an option to expand pool capacity be provided at no cost or 100 mineral cost? Should the pool have an unlimited amount of capacity depending
on how many times the capacity expansion upgrade has been researched? If the pool was destroyed, would all food at that pool be lost?
-If the pool has this option to increase its control capacity, how much total capacity should it be able to hold?
As a final note before explaining my case, there needs to be some incentive to make more then 1 pool. If the pool yields 8 control however, this is not enough incentive to make more then 1,
on the other hand if it yields 16 supply, this would almost seem like too much, however if it was worth 16 supply it would make things a lot simpler.
There may have to be another reason for making an additional pool besides 8 control... This might sound interesting, even though it is kind of a rip off
of the alien concept from the movie alien. The pool could be thought of as the bio fluid for their units which explains the control, but perhaps that fluid
is like a toxic poison or acid. So imagine that the spawning pool has its own creep radius, and then has the ability to allow the creep around it to soak up
all that green poisonous fluid, or acid. The enemy units on that creep would have a sort of plagued status. Which might be an interesting way to bring back the concept of plague.
What would be the cost of secreting the toxin? Well, thinking logically, perhaps the 8 food would be lost or sacrificed for a period of time until the pool fills back up. This would
be interesting since sacrifice is one of the key themes of zerg.
The ultimate question would be, "is this enough incentive to make another pool?"
I'm really having a hard time coming up with an idea to give enough incentive to produce another pool with out making it worth 16 food... but 16 additional food at an early point in the game
would clearly be too much.
The other reason why it would seem necessary to have pool be worth control is because of the overlord's insignificant purpose/value. A couple can be used as scouts
and they can be used to perform mass drops, but other then that, zerg is just putting all their control in one basket by having a load of overlords sitting in their base.
One might argue that terran and protoss have a load of pylons and supply depots sitting around, but those have their choke point value, and the overlord is indeed
considered more of a unit then a building...
The famous saying goes, "do not make units unless you are going to use them." It's not don't make buildings unless you are going to use them... Many overlords suggests a mass drop, for what other reason is there to so many? To scout? LOL? This almost forces zerg to
conduct a mass drop. Sure, the carrying capacity applying to all overlords would seem powerful, but being forced to mass drop when all of those overlords are your supply? That is absolutely
rediculous in many ways. It is also a controversial issue of whether carrying capacity and overlord speed should be one and the same research.
Going back to the spawning pool...
I'm only asking that the pool be worth atleast 8 control, but it may need to yield as much as 16 control if it costs 200 minerals, but there should be a way around that problem.
But I will be discussing in the following paper, why the spawning pool was suppose to yield atleast 8 control.
3 hatchery + 2 overlord = 19 supply (total 1100 minerals)
2 command center + 1 depot = 28 supply (Total 900 minerals)
2 nexus + 1 pylon = 26 supply (Total 900 minerals)
The above is fact. So I give the above data the benefit of the doubt that perhaps there is a reason for why it is the way it is.
I can really only come up with a few counter arguements for why zerg is being short handed according to the data above.
If I was to send this to blizzard they might come up with any of the following arguments.
Argument #1. But 3 overlords and 2 hatch = 26 food (800 minerals)
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Hatches give 2 food, OVs 8.
Also WTH the pool should not grant food.
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England2654 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:35 Uranium wrote:
Hatches give 2 food, OVs 8.
Also WTH the pool should not grant food.
First hatch gives 2, additional hatches give 1.
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This is just strange. And it's a bit too late to be fundamentally changing the supply dynamics of a race.
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I need to find a way to get the rest of the paper out there so the big picture here can be seen. I hope I have enough room.
Argument #1. But 3 overlords and 2 hatch = 26 food (800 minerals)
My response: But what is the purpose of getting overlord 3 when you could just get
another hatch? That 3rd hatch is more important then food at that point, UNLESS you are suggesting that the overlord was suppose to provide economic support.
Overlord having an economic role? That goes back to the idea of overlord building on and extracting additional gas or minerals.. I presented a possible idea for this
on the starcraft2.org forums, but even I admit that it is pretty rediculous.
http://www.starcraft2forum.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20695
Or blizzard, are you suggesting that the pool should have more of a role then just unlocking the zergling, and zergling speed?
But lets balance this back out by giving toss and terran 1 more supply depot or pylon and factor in the pool, barrack, and gateway. If you examine those values it goes back to being imbalanced for zerg.
But lets say that the pool was worth 8 food. Here is an interesting presentation of data to show how it would be balanced.
2 hatch + 3 lord + pool(8 food) = 34 food (1100 minerals)
2 cc + 2 depot + barrack = 36 food (1150 minerals)
2 nexus + 2 pylon + gateway = 34 food (1150 minerals)
Remember, zerg naturally start out with an overlord. But the above data shows just how balanced it would be if the pool was worth 8 food.
Argument #2: But 3 hatch pool is able to produce so much more offense than 2 command center, barrack.
My response: But how can zerg make that offense with out the food? at that point zerg still would only have 2 lords which means a 3rd lord is needed to even be able to take advantage of 3 hatch ling.
If a wave of offense from 3 hatch has to be utilized and it fails, zerg's economy is
down the drain.
Truly, this proves that zerg is a race that is FORCED is to a greater degree of agression then terran or protoss. With terran having a higher degree of dealing
with that agression, repairing a bunker. It just practically gauruntees zerg's demise.
We have been debating the role of the pool on another forum. It doesn't naturally open up production like the gateway or the barrack. People say on the other hand
that it is a tech building, that it unlocks the zergling and queen. When you compare it to the cyber core, the cybernetics core upgrades protoss' air, and unlocks
2 additional units, the stalker is simply a higher level unit then a ling is, especially when micro is used.
So should the pool upgrade zerg air like the cybercore? If not then...
maybe it is more comparable to the academy because stimpacks and marine range are ability upgrades like ling speed and adrenal gland.
In what way does having stimpack be at tier 1 compare to the zergling attack upgrade which occurs at tier 3.
I'm finding that in starcraft, that there isn't a very good back and forth battle between raw army going up the tech tree. it seems like they focused all the back and forth element
in to the gas units. This also seems to be, to some degree part of the issue.
The pool doesn't naturally enhance production like the barrack and the gateway. It doesn't upgrade units like the cybercore, and it doesn't allow for adrenal gland on tier 1 which is comparable
to stim packs, until tier 3.
But people don't want it to be able to do any of those things because it would buff zerg too much, and because it wouldn't be unique enough.
The pool yielding 8 food is actually the perfect and logical answer in my opinion.
Interestingly enough, it even makes sense in its concept. A pool which holds gentic bio fluid in the same way a depot holds supply, enhancing the capacity for which bio can be produced.
Argument # 3: But the overlord can be used as a scout.
My response: Does that really make up for 8 food lost? Maybe if the overlord was naturally cloaked... But I don't even think blizzard could explain that ridiculous of a concept.
Argument # 4:
"But this would make the pool rush more effective"
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Mid to late game if your doing a drop overlords should be expendable if they are not you fucked up the early game, also the ability to spew creep, drop queens and drones is highly under valued creep tumors are awesome in the opponents base. I thought about the values of things before and I feel its a slippery slope as balance for each race is based on more then value as a nexus cannot make carriers and command centers cannot make battlecruisers. The incentive to make another pool DOES exist and it's in the late game when your opponent targets key tech structures. In case I pool my pool I'll make a new one on the island in lost temple. Plus this reduces drop surface area. This is something I feel pro and casual players both don't do enough.
Expect major new Zerg mechanics in HOTS but until then tweaks.
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Hyrule18967 Posts
Please stop posting. You have nowhere near the minimum required knowledge to be suggesting game changes, and I'm also pretty sure you're high.
Long post != good post
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On September 17 2010 00:38 Flicky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:35 Uranium wrote:
Hatches give 2 food, OVs 8.
Also WTH the pool should not grant food. First hatch gives 2, additional hatches give 1.
All hatches are worth 2 food.
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I really feel like people are simply responding for the sake of arguing. I was hoping that people would actually acknowledge the points being made and give them fair consideration. But so far they are not.
Lets try to keep the eye on the ball, or not.
We either give the ideas some potential, or we don't. If not, then don't respond so we can keep it clean and orderly.
But I will say, we may have to admit that there has been quite a serious and significant problem with zerg all along.
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Can you explain to me why buildings are being counted towards the food count? Are you talking about the yield of larva? Sorry if this sounds noobish but I've just never thought of this logic and id like to know further.
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On September 17 2010 00:43 AtlasMech wrote:
Or blizzard, are you suggesting that the pool should have more of a role then just unlocking the zergling, and zergling speed?
It does what the hell
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This guy is definitely high. Spawning pool worth supply????
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Hyrule18967 Posts
On September 17 2010 00:54 AtlasMech wrote:
I really feel like people are simply responding for the sake of arguing. I was hoping that people would actually acknowledge the points being made and give them fair consideration. But so far they are not.
Lets try to keep the eye on the ball, or not.
We either give the ideas some potential, or we don't. If not, then don't respond so we can keep it clean and orderly.
But I will say, we may have to admit that there has been quite a serious and significant problem with zerg all along.
Posting a big OP (and a huge appendixy type thing as well), then dictating exactly how discussion should take place, in your first 3 posts ever, is a good way to make people hate you.
Anyway, as for your massive (awful) suggestion....it's awful.
Overlords give food. Hatcheries give (minimal) food. Zerg is not Terran. Do not try to copy the Supply Depot. Additionally, your point about mineral costs and supply is dumb. Hatch + Queen + 4 Ovies + Pool = 1050, 34 food, and far better production than 1 Rax or 1 Gate. Why are you comparing costs the way you do?
Stimpack makes plenty of sense at tier 1 with Cracklings at tier 3, for a number of reasons:
1. It costs HP to use
2. It isn't permanent
3. Bio can't be healed until tier 3
All of your points are dumb, because you look at everything in a way that favors your arguments instead of objectively.
Pools granting 8 food is perfectly logical? Maybe in your brain. But this is the real world. Where it's dumb.
[edit]
I was fine with this dumb stuff sticking to Strategy, because I never read that board, but when dumb stuff starts spilling over into normal boards, it makes me angry. Keep the dumb out.
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To tofucake: I believe that you are quite simply overlooking a few things.
1. You can only fill the primary bases minerals with so many miners.
2. Your figures are incorrect, the queen costs 2 supply which means 32 food.
3. How could 4 overlord be that necessary for only 1 hatch that early?
4. The marine is a ranged unit, and I was not complaining that the adrenal gland was on tier 3, I was simply was using that fact to really question the role and function of the spawning pool. The comparable buildings to the spawning pool are the cybercore which upgrades units and unlocks an advanced unit, the stalker. But clearly the upgrading of units defines its role. There USED to be the academy, which was 200 minerals making it comparable to the pool, it unlocked the firebat AND the medic, but provided 2 upgrades to terran infantry right off the bat, so to speak. Is it not clear that the spawning pool is not quite fulfilling a particular role, what ever that role may be?
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Hyrule18967 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:59 AtlasMech wrote:
To tofucake: I believe that you are quite simply overlooking a few things.
1. You can only fill the primary bases minerals with so many miners.
2. Your figures are incorrect, the queen costs 2 supply which means 32 food.
3. How could 4 overlord be that necessary for only 1 hatch that early?
1. See #2
2. If we are using remaining food, not available food, then 32 on Zerg, minus 16 for Drones leaves 16 for army, where Protoss and Terran need to have 32 to saturate 2 bases, and are then left 4 and 2 food remaining for army, respectively. And the Zerg option is still cheaper. Stop mix-and-match'ing your arguments to win.
3. See #2
Your arguments are still dumb.
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I do not understand the disrespect that is being allowed to go on here.
You were talking about 1 base, and now you are trying to make it seem like zerg have two bases, when they only have 1. If we are going to talk about 2 bases, then lets talk about 2 bases, if were are going to talk about 1 then lets talk about 1 and not try to mix it up in order to make it seem like you have a point.
I would appreciate that you stick to an argument and follow through on it.
This goes back to the data in the OP, are you going to ignore the data in the OP?
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Hyrule18967 Posts
What are you smoking? You said 2 Nex and 2 CC and 2 Hatch, while I said 1 Hatch + Queen.
Seriously. What the fuck are you ranting about? You change your argument every post.
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It's interesting how people act like terran and protoss didn't recieve buffs as well.
Crono boost, mule, reactor....
What use is more larvae, if there is a root problem with control balance?
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Why does zerg only have 1 building(The spawning pool) which after destroyed, disables all basic warrior production (Zergling), while terran and protoss have many, and usually many more barrack
and gateway then their other offensive unit producers?
Because this "flaw" is, in fact, a feature of the zerg race: a single building allows every single hatchery you've built to produce the unit(s) it's associated with, whereas protoss and terrans need to drop multiple warpgates/barracks/etc. to increase their production capacity. This makes the whole thing a non-issue, in my opinion.
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im glad tofucake is trumping these arguments before this thread gets closed
zerg defining feature is quick tech switches, which is where the one building = being able to build said unit from all larvae
i dont know why you would compare the races against each other...zerg, in this sense, is fine.
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EPT
