• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:21
CEST 09:21
KST 16:21
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Serral wins EWC 202538Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 202510Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202580RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15
Community News
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up2LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments3[BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder10EWC 2025 - Replay Pack4Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced55
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (Jul 28-Aug 3): herO doubles up How to leave Master league - bug fix? Serral wins EWC 2025 The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Interview with Chris "ChanmanV" Chan
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament LiuLi Cup - August 2025 Tournaments Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) TaeJa vs Creator Bo7 SC Evo Showmatch FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 485 Death from Below Mutation # 484 Magnetic Pull Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars
Brood War
General
Nobody gona talk about this year crazy qualifiers? [BSL 2025] H2 - Team Wars, Weeklies & SB Ladder How do the new Battle.net ranks translate? BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [ASL20] Online Qualifiers Day 1
Strategy
[G] Mineral Boosting Muta micro map competition Does 1 second matter in StarCraft? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok)
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread 9/11 Anniversary Possible Al Qaeda Attack on 9/11 Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Gtx660 graphics card replacement Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ASL S20 English Commentary…
namkraft
The Link Between Fitness and…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 597 users

[D] Finding a reason to get upgrades.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
Post a Reply
1 2 3 Next All
BlueSorc
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United Kingdom119 Posts
July 25 2010 21:55 GMT
#1
Finding a reason to get upgrades

In his dailies, Day[9] is a fan of saying that you should always try and think of a reason to get upgrades. Obviously, upgrades are always a good thing to have and nobody on Team Liquid needs to be told how important they are.

However, some upgrades are more important than others. They can enable you to do things that you couldn't do before. In Starcraft 1, everyone knew that getting +1 weapons as Protoss against Zerg was powerful early game, because it enabled zealots to two shot zerglings. You could build a timing push around it. The same mechanism exists in Starcraft 2. Another great example that a lot of people know about from Starcraft 2 is the +2 ground weapons upgrade for protoss vs zerg. +2 weapons on a colossus enables them to one-shot zerglings, essentially making zerglings near redundant if you have a few colossi on the field.

Day[9]'s idea is that, if you have a reason in mind to grab an upgrade, you're far less likely to forget it. In addition, you might spot a few new tricks. With this in mind, I cooked up the following spreadsheet, to try and find all the other important upgrades. If you desire to know a few more cool examples of important upgrades to get, read on. Some of the information might be better classed as trivia, rather than being particularly useful, but there's one or two interesting ideas. And it might help you remember your upgrades if, like me, you struggle to remember amongst the chaos.

Those not wanting to look at the sheet, skip down to the next heading to see my analysis of the numbers.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArT3fk5kKwxddFFzVmN2Si0tTVJ3d2ktVmljVFE4cmc&hl=en

Its rather messy. Those that don't want to get their hands dirty, the best information is in the sheets called "GoodX00".

These correspond to the ratio of time a unit takes to destroy another unit in one on one combat after an upgrade to the time it takes to do so before an upgrade. For example, in "Good200", Colossus vs Zergling has a value of 0.5, indicating that, when you move from +1 attack to +2 attack, the Colossus takes half as much time to destroy the zerglings, as before. The "00" in "200" corresponds to the armour/shield upgrades a unit has, thus, for now, all the "Good" spreadsheets assume your opponent has not upgraded. Note that, for most units, 1 armour upgrade cancels out 1 attack upgrade, so you can approximate "Good210" to "Good100". Eventually, I hope to remedy this and to analyse the effects of increasing armour and shields, as well.

The "HitsXXX" sheets correspond to the difference in hits that a unit can take, as compared to 000 upgrades. For example, in Hits200, Colossus vs Zergling has a value of -1, as it takes 1 less hit to kill a zergling with plus 2 than it does with no upgrades.

For those wishing to check my assumptions, check the spoiler below.

+ Show Spoiler +
The spreadsheet takes into account HP, Damage, modifiers due to armour type (light, armoured etc.), attack speeds, shields, shield upgrades.

There are entries that take into account units that have different Air attacks to their ground attacks (like the Thor), but the spreadsheet does not recognise when an attack doesn't work on an enemy. As such, we learn inane information like that, if your 2v2 strategy revolves around your ally lifting up scvs with phoenixes whilst you attack them with vikings in air mode, the +3 attack upgrade is really, really useful.

There are also entries that take into account marines with shields, hellions with preigniters, ultralisks with the bonus armor upgrades and charged void rays.

It does NOT taking into account splash damage, anything that would increase atttack rate (adrenal glands/stims), guardian shield, corruption or a multitude of other things that would effect the data. If you spot something really important I've missed, please let me know.

Also, I would point out, before someone else does, that micro changes everything, and good theorycrafting does not always translate into good starcrafting. Win Ratios can go down, as well as up, and BlueSorceror is not responsible for any loss of games that may result from following the advice herein.


[image loading]
With +2 upgrades, this could potentially cause zerg-users a few nightmares.


One Shot Wonders

So: What have I learnt from this exercise? The first thing I looked for was what upgrades also allow you to "one shot" various units, á la my colossus example from above.

Please note: all theorycraft. I've tried some of these out, and, hey, they work, but I reserve the right for any of this not to work due to a dropped digit somewhere in the spreadsheet.

+1 Upgrades

Take anything I say about sieged tanks with a pinch of salt, because I don't analyse the effect of splash damage, which is a vital part of the equation. However, its interesting to note that unupgraded tanks one shot marines without combat shields, but don't one shot them when they do have combat shields. The difference is largely academic, but if you want to truly ensure that marines are rendered completely redundant by your tanks, you’re going to need the +1 upgrade to one-shot the shielded ones.

The only other thing that really happens is that DTs one shot reapers. Which is cute.

+2 Upgrades

Some interesting stuff happens here.

+2 is a very important number for colossi. As previously mentioned, it enables them to one shot zerglings, which is really, really important in PvZ. However, worth noting that zerglings aren't the only things they one shot: banelings, drones and probes are also one shotted. First of all, that obviously gives you a much better chance of ensuring banelings don't hit your terrified lines of zealots. Perhaps more useful is the knowledge that, if you abuse thermal lances, warp prisms and cliffwalking with your coloxen, you can do some really significant damage to an enemy mineral line with colossus harassment if you have the +2 upgrade to P and Z. That isn't something I've seen a huge amount of in the beta.

Something I find quite interesting is that +2 attack archons can one shot drones. That seems quite useful, in my mind: are +2 archon drops potentially a really nasty harassment technique against zerg? If you pair them with a speed upgraded shuttle, SC1 reaver style, they can outrun the drones, they attack relatively quickly and do useful splash damage. My experiments doing this to a computer's mineral line are pretty successful. Time will tell if its more effective against a real player than just dumping a DT or something in there.

Another notable one shot for harassment is that, with +2, banelings one shot drones and probes. Has everybody watched a DIMAGA ZvZ where he gets a couple of banelings in the mineral line that kill, like, 7 drones? Then the commentator points out that there's about 7 more drones with about 5 hp left? With +2 upgrade, those drones are dead, not just barely alive.

+3 Upgrades

All excited by the concept of some colossus harassment after the last section? Gutted it won't work against terran? Well, rejoice in that, if you wait a couple more minutes for +3 attack, you can do the same trick against SCVs. Yay.

Here's a couple of things to remember if you somehow manage to get to +3 attack, but your opponent is still producing combat shieldless marines. Banelings and archons, at +3, both one shot marines. Sounds deadly, if you can pull it off. But, it also sounds highly situational. Both of these don't work if the marines have +3 armour upgrades.

In addition, theres a couple more +3 one shots that are of more dubious use. Hellions with pre-igniter and +3 attack can one shot broodlings. Not sure if that has much practical use... but now you know about it.

Oh, and, if you can get a bunch of +3 carriers in range of a bunch of completely unupgraded vikings, a single full volley of interceptors will one shot it. Which is nice.

Also: Its not a 1 shot, but, at +3, Immortals 2 shot marauders, if the marauders don't have +2 or more armour. Thats presumably pretty devastating, if you can pull it off.

Other important upgrades

The examples above are nice enough, but nothing too outstanding. If we draw ourselves away from the idea of one-shotting everything, there are plenty of much more practical upgrades to act as your memory aids. Throughout the next section, I'm going to be mentioning a lot of ratios that correspond to the ratios in the "good" spreadsheets above. Just remember that a 0.5 ratio means that a unit kills its opponent in half the time it would with the upgrade below it, e.g. +1 colossi kill zerglings in 2 hits, +2 in 1 hit, therefore it has a ratio of 0.5.

For reference, the effectiveness ratio of +1 attack to zealots vs zerglings, which I think everyone gets is a pretty important upgrade, is 0.66. That means that anything around thereabouts is a pretty good upgrade, possibly something you could potentially build a timing push around.


[image loading]
Who wins? Completely depends on upgrades.


Carriers

Carriers suck, right? It seems that people are starting to come around to the idea that battlecruisers aren't actually too bad, thanks to TLO, but people need more convincing that carriers aren't massively subpar. Having had a look at the spreadsheets, I'm certain that upgrades are going to be massively important to convincing people that carriers are viable.

Because the carrier has so many interceptors and those interceptors get a double attack, each +1 upgrade is worth +16 damage to a full volley of interceptors. That is massive, particularly as a proportion of the original damage it does. Carrier upgrades appear to give more dps for your buck than any other upgrade in the game, hands down.

Thus, the carrier has a bunch of very good ratios across the board. One that strikes me as interesting is the +1 ratios against terran mech: 0.5, 0.66 and 0.714 against hellions, tanks and thors respectively. No other upgrade has such a large effect against a group of units that you are likely to encounter together. I've tested it out quickly in the unit tester, and it seems to work: Carriers that have a +1 advantage over terran mech's armour cut through them significantly faster. The one spanner in the works is that the +1 does very little to help with the vikings that usually accompany the mech.

There's a similar situation with carriers vs protoss gateway units: the ratios for zealots stalkers and sentries for the +1 upgrade is 0.66, 0.66, 0.5. Thats equal to or greater than the effect of +1 attack, zealots vs zerglings, and it definately makes a difference. Try it yourself: Whack open your favourite unit tester map, bang down 26 stalkers on the red team and 6 carriers on the blue team. Build up 8 interceptors in the carriers and then order the carriers to attack move. Without micro or building more interceptors, watch as the stalkers win with about 8 or 9 of their number remaining. Then, try the same experiment, giving the carriers +1 attack. Completely different: Carriers win, usually without many problems. Occasionally a carrier goes down, and there are usually not huge amounts of interceptors left over, but it’s a big effect. A +1 upgrade above the enemy is worth almost 10 stalkers, in this case.

A list of important upgrades for carriers. Each upgrade is relative to the opponents armour upgrades, so +1 is the same as +2 vs +1 armour.

+1: All mech units, All gateway units (save templars), Battlecruisers, Roaches, Archons, Phoenixes, Void Rays
+2: Ghosts, Battlecruisers, Queens, Photon Cannons, Overlords
+3: Vikings, Mutalisks, DTs, Overseers, Broodlords

I implore you: When you decide building carriers is a useful skill to have, realise upgrading them is also a very useful skill to have. Note: The upgrades are more effective the more interceptors you have, so without a full load, these upgrades aren't as important as I'm suggesting.


[image loading]
Perhaps I might have well not spent the 250 gas on the ranged attack upgrades for these hydras?


Zerglings and the Zerg

Obviously, a +1 attack upgrade on a weak but very quick attack is going to make a huge difference, but I just want to reiterate it here: Right across the board, zerglings love upgrades. LOVE them. There's no dramatic ratios anywhere, no matchup I can point to where I can say "If you're going to fight this unit, DEFINATELY get your +2". There's just a solid, steady ratio of around 0.75 right across the board, vs every unit, for every upgrade. This isn't even taking adrenal glands into account, a very underrated upgrade. With it, melee damage upgrades are even more important.

Everybody upgrades ranged attack before melee, right? All upgrades are useful, but, on analysis, the zerg ranged attack upgrade is one of the worst attack upgrades in the game. Aside from keeping up with your opponent's armour upgrades, there's hardly a single ratio for either the roach or the hydra that is below 0.9. In particular, vs terran MM&M, the numbers suggest there's not even very much point in upgrading ranged attack at all. Unless you can get it to +3 before the terran has his armour at +1, there literally is NO REASON to upgrade attack if you are facing a force of unupgraded pure marines without combat shields: Whether you're +0,+1 or +2, hydras and roaches take the exact same number of shots to kill marines. You need to make sure you keep up with the terran's upgrades, but there isn't a super effective +1 ranged attack timing push thats going to be discovered early game vs terran anytime soon: it just isn't a huge dps increase.

The moral of this story is: Upgrade carapace first. But, once thats out of the way, if you have some zerglings in your zerg mix, why not grab the melee attack upgrade first? Your hydras might be the main damage dealers in your army, sure, but the zerglings will appreciate your precious vespene and time far, far more. Also, if you end up using broodlords, broodlings benefit more from upgrades than any other unit in the game.

Reapers

Reapers love upgrades. Marines like upgrades, particularly against heavily armoured targets, and marauders think they're kinda cool, but Reapers LOVE being +1 attack ahead of an opponents armour. Its not even about making the reapers more viable as an all around unit. Most of the impressive looking ratios in the Reaper's upgrades are for units you'd never use reapers against, like ultralisks and tanks.

Reaper +1 upgrades mean that they kill probes and drones in 2 shots, not 3. +2 does the same to SCVs. That makes their job a heck of a lot easier. I'm not sure if its really possible to get a +1 upgrade in time for an early reaper harass, but it'd probably be pretty effective if you could.


[image loading]
Maybe if there'd been a few more voids and the all important upgrade, people might still think battlecruisers sucked?


Void Rays

The void ray is what seems like Team Liquid's new favourite unit. You can faze with it and do charge micro tricks and all sorts of cool stuff. It has a low cooldown, low damage attack, so you'd expect its upgrade to be fairly useful. As it happens, it isn't quite as useful across the board as I'd have expected. Don't get me wrong: its pretty much universally helpful against everything, with ratios of about 0.8, which is just a smidge better than the average ratio on the spreadsheet. However, there's one situation under which the upgrades are vital: against battlecruisers. Being +1 ahead when uncharged gives a ratio of 0.66, which is great. It gets even better when they're charged, as they do bonus damage vs armoured too.

From my experiments, micro seems to be very important to void rays vs battle cruisers, especially whether you can get the void rays charged quickly or not. The +1 upgrade, though, hurls the void ray to battlecruiser ratio you need to win in the void ray's favour, especially when charged. Charged +1 void ray beams cut through battlecruiser hulls like a knife through warm butter.

Minor spoiler ahead if you’re the only person on TL who hasn't seen TLO vs HuK in Day[9]'s King of the Beta tournament.

+ Show Spoiler +
Rewatch the game, and have a look at how HuK responds to TLO's battlecrusier fleet. I think "panicked" would be one way to describe it, certainly. HuK's response was to get 2 stargates up, build 2 voids, then mass some stalkers and double forge chrono the stalker upgrades. Alas, in my newfound opinion, a mistake was made there.

HuK needed to hit the +1 void upgrade hard with the chrono bat rather than the ground attack upgrade. The ground attack offers very little for stalkers vs BCs - about 0.92 at BEST, nearly pointless, one of the least beneficial upgrades in the game. In most situations, the gas is more efficiently spent on more stalkers. Better would have been to spend that gas (which he was struggling for) on the +1 air attack. Watch carefully: HuK's voidrays are 0/0, no upgrades at all. With a few more voids, charged up before the battle on some rocks or a proxy pylon or something, and with the extraordinarily useful +1 attack upgrade, maybe HuK could have turned it round?


Defense

A quick word in about the defense upgrades: I haven't analysed them fully, yet. However, I can guess already what trends are going to be coming out of the analysis: Take any important upgrade I have mentioned, above. The opposite defensive upgrade is going to be important. Void rays love attack upgrades vs Battlecruisers? Battlecruisers love ship plating upgrades vs Void rays. +2 Zerg carapace blocks the +2 colossus one-shot, forcing protoss to get +3 for the same effect. Some attack upgrades outweigh defensive upgrades, but by and large, the important defensive upgrades will be the opposite of the important attack upgrades.

Summary

So, that’s pretty much it for this extraordinarily long post. I thank both of you that managed to get this far for being so patient. As mentioned, the data is above, there for you to take a look at. I'd love to hear if you can tell anything more from it or any problems you see with what I've said. The point of the post is not to say that by getting the most useful upgrades, its going to improve your game no end and that you can turn the countered unit into a counter unit with the right set of upgrades. What it should do is try and get an insight into which upgrades are the most important in what situations.

Hopefully, that knowledge will give you more confidence in the power of the upgrades. Many people will look at stim and go "Well, I must have that, or I will suck against roaches, a situation I sorely hope to avoid", but most won't look at +1 air upgrade and go "If I do not have that, my carriers will suck. Therefore, it has massive importance to me."

And in so doing, we try to find reasons for getting upgrades. This is all a fairly minor point to go into in such detail, but I hope you've found it useful. If anyone has any questions about a particular upgrade in a particular situation, I'd be happy to trawl through my barely comprehensible spreadsheet to try and find a solution.
Sabresandiego
Profile Joined July 2010
United States227 Posts
July 25 2010 22:03 GMT
#2
For terran vs terran +1 vehicle upgrades makes thors kill marauders in 2 shots instead of 3. Thats kind of a big deal if you plan on using either unit.
Terran
BlueSorc
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United Kingdom119 Posts
July 25 2010 22:04 GMT
#3
On July 26 2010 07:03 Sabresandiego wrote:
For terran vs terran +1 vehicle upgrades makes thors kill marauders in 2 shots instead of 3. Thats kind of a big deal if you plan on using either unit.


Does the same thing against grounded vikings, too.
Yokoblue
Profile Joined March 2010
Canada594 Posts
July 25 2010 22:19 GMT
#4
Really good info.. Thx for the tests
Master League playing Protoss and Zerg
Homeland
Profile Joined May 2009
Denmark58 Posts
July 25 2010 22:22 GMT
#5
Plus 1 defence on zealots and guardian shield makes the marines do 3 damage and not 6 making them a lot weaker.
palanq
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States761 Posts
July 25 2010 23:12 GMT
#6
there's this idea running around for protoss shield upgrades for use with voidray and blinkstalker harass, particularly against marines and zerglings, respectively
time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
soullogik
Profile Joined April 2010
United States1171 Posts
July 25 2010 23:20 GMT
#7
appreciate the post brotha
young ho
brain_
Profile Joined June 2010
United States812 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-25 23:33:13
July 25 2010 23:30 GMT
#8
On July 26 2010 07:22 Homeland wrote:
Plus 1 defence on zealots and guardian shield makes the marines do 3 damage and not 6 making them a lot weaker.



Yep.

PvZ: +1 attack asap
PvT: +1 defense asap




Anyway, this is interesting to know- thanks OP! The bit about carriers in particular is amazing- +16 DMG PER UPGRADE! Wow! Could you please summarize the numbers for Brood Lords (you say they benefit the most)?
harky
Profile Joined July 2010
98 Posts
July 26 2010 00:15 GMT
#9
Some interesting stuff. In regard to Carriers though there is a slight flaw. While they do technically get +16 for each weapon upgrade, they also receive -16 for each opposing armor upgrade. D'oh.

This is pretty damaging if you look at something like Carrier vs BC. BCs at +3 have 6 armor. So at +3 weapons a full wave of Interceptors only does 32 damage. That's ~10 DPS. Roughly what 4 Marines would do. It's only slightly better than 1 Stalker... Pretty abysmal against Corruptors (5 armor) as well. Both beat Carriers at roughly half the cost. Vikings do the same, but have the range advantage as well and after you reach a certain mass of Vikings you can take out many times their worth in Carriers. Last I tired I was able to pick off 18 Carriers with 12 Vikings before losing the first Viking (you often take 2-3 hits as you kite away). Basically I traded 150/75 for 8100/4500.

Because of stuff like this don't expect to see Carriers thought of as better. Especially when not only do Terran and Zerg beat them in the air, but so do Void Rays. They do beat Phoenix and Banshees though. Does that count?
Ndugu
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1078 Posts
July 26 2010 00:20 GMT
#10
I've been desperately trying to figure out how much carriers get per upgrade. Wasn't sure if interceptors were a special case. Otherwise the +16 seemed to make them somewhat amazing. (had a 2v2 build where I RUSHED +3 air and carriers, and attacked as +3 and mothership finished.)

The point made above about armor above makes me really sad, though.

Thankfully, most people focus on upgrading their attack over their armor... and that attack upgrade won't matter when carriers are out of range and they're only wasting shots on interceptors.
DreamSailor
Profile Joined June 2010
Canada433 Posts
July 26 2010 01:53 GMT
#11
Excellent post.

I'll have to try some Archon drops against a friend of mine who primaries Zerg.
Where ever you go, there you are.
Chronopolis
Profile Joined April 2009
Canada1484 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-26 02:55:29
July 26 2010 02:54 GMT
#12
+2 is a very important number for colossi. As previously mentioned, it enables them to one shot zerglings, which is really, really important in PvZ. However, worth noting that zerglings aren't the only things they one shot: banelings, drones and probes are also one shotted. First of all, that obviously gives you a much better chance of ensuring banelings don't hit your terrified lines of zealots. Perhaps more useful is the knowledge that, if you abuse thermal lances, warp prisms and cliffwalking with your coloxen, you can do some really significant damage to an enemy mineral line with colossus harassment if you have the +2 upgrade to P and Z. That isn't something I've seen a huge amount of in the beta.

Something I find quite interesting is that +2 attack archons can one shot drones. That seems quite useful, in my mind: are +2 archon drops potentially a really nasty harassment technique against zerg? If you pair them with a speed upgraded shuttle, SC1 reaver style, they can outrun the drones, they attack relatively quickly and do useful splash damage. My experiments doing this to a computer's mineral line are pretty successful. Time will tell if its more effective against a real player than just dumping a DT or something in there.


Haha, as an aspiring protoss, I made a chart myself (on paper) for neat upgrades bonuses. A few other stats.

With +2, archons 2hit-hydras (up to +2 armor)
With +3, zealots can 4-shot (hard counter basically) hydras if they have no armor ups (hope they forget :D )
With +3, archons 1 shot scvs as well.
Upgrades with zealots scale well against amored targets like roaches. 14+2 = more difference then 16+2.
Archons "critical number of hits", do not matter as much as, say zealots, because in a army vs army, both the zealots and the archons are bashing away at the same target. It does help significantly for drops tho.
Shron
Profile Joined March 2010
United States162 Posts
July 26 2010 03:02 GMT
#13
On July 26 2010 09:15 harky wrote: Last I tired I was able to pick off 18 Carriers with 12 Vikings before losing the first Viking (you often take 2-3 hits as you kite away). Basically I traded 150/75 for 8100/4500.

Because of stuff like this don't expect to see Carriers thought of as better. Especially when not only do Terran and Zerg beat them in the air, but so do Void Rays. They do beat Phoenix and Banshees though. Does that count?


You can't kite carriers with vikings, their range is the same if interceptors are out. Vikings aren't that much faster, too. What were the 18 carriers doing while your 12 vikings killed all of them? If they were attacking anything, you wouldn't have been able to kite them. Even if they weren't attacking anything, I'm not sure it's possible if they have the launch speed upgrade.
"I produced a lot of units and was given this award. I didn't know I produced so many units. Next season I will produce more units." - Nestea
scojac
Profile Joined June 2010
United States99 Posts
July 26 2010 03:04 GMT
#14
redundant...i don't think this word means what you think it means.

great post though, very interesting info! <3
KaRnaGe[cF]
Profile Joined September 2007
United States355 Posts
July 26 2010 03:08 GMT
#15
On July 26 2010 10:53 DreamSailor wrote:
Excellent post.

I'll have to try some Archon drops against a friend of mine who primaries Zerg.



Seems to me like a storm drop woul dbe more cost effective. Storm all the drones and get out with your templar.
"We must remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best who is trained in the severest school." - Athenian General Thucydides Quantum Gaming
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
July 26 2010 03:29 GMT
#16
I really agree with the implications for Zerg, melee upgrade > ranged upgrade in just about all situations.

I have been thinking about this for a while, when retail comes up, I want to work on incorporating a late wave of lings into just about all my matchups (meaning move roaches, hydras into the fight, THEN stream zerglings in so they don't just die immediately).

This spreadsheet pretty much confirms the theory behind that, just getting +1/+1 zerglings into a fight if they don't get obliterated on the run-in is going to make a world of difference...
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
Skyro
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1823 Posts
July 26 2010 03:35 GMT
#17
On July 26 2010 12:08 KaRnaGe[cF] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2010 10:53 DreamSailor wrote:
Excellent post.

I'll have to try some Archon drops against a friend of mine who primaries Zerg.



Seems to me like a storm drop woul dbe more cost effective. Storm all the drones and get out with your templar.


Yeah, but I think archon drops in the mineral lines have some untapped potential due to having an actual attack so they do not require micro, can destroy buildings if let alone and it forces your opponent to send at least a few units to defend against. Specifically, I think an archon drop would be pretty effective to coincide with a push on another location/base.
whatthemate
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia51 Posts
July 26 2010 03:40 GMT
#18
Scvs have 45 hp not 60. To OP too much offline starcrack pirate testing??
whatthehell
Doko
Profile Joined May 2010
Argentina1737 Posts
July 26 2010 03:49 GMT
#19
Huk needed that gas on templars to feedback the battlecruisers that 1 shot his voids with yamato. Not +1
ixi.genocide
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States981 Posts
July 26 2010 05:35 GMT
#20
On July 26 2010 12:29 Jermstuddog wrote:
I really agree with the implications for Zerg, melee upgrade > ranged upgrade in just about all situations.

I have been thinking about this for a while, when retail comes up, I want to work on incorporating a late wave of lings into just about all my matchups (meaning move roaches, hydras into the fight, THEN stream zerglings in so they don't just die immediately).

This spreadsheet pretty much confirms the theory behind that, just getting +1/+1 zerglings into a fight if they don't get obliterated on the run-in is going to make a world of difference...



After you know that the opponent has colossi I wouldn't even bother keeping my lings w/ my main army, having them to the side is going to be so helpful because if they aren't being slaughtered they do a lot of damage against the colossi. Having a pincer attack is a great strat and has won me plenty of games.
1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 39m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
-ZergGirl 75
ProTech62
StarCraft: Brood War
ggaemo 1753
Stork 350
actioN 274
Leta 220
Backho 81
Noble 55
Bale 15
Dota 2
monkeys_forever570
XaKoH 527
ODPixel150
BananaSlamJamma116
Fuzer 63
XcaliburYe8
League of Legends
JimRising 703
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K1105
shoxiejesuss265
Other Games
summit1g7802
shahzam630
WinterStarcraft505
SortOf95
Pyrionflax67
NeuroSwarm57
JuggernautJason46
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1099
BasetradeTV32
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH224
• davetesta34
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 58
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush2237
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
3h 39m
OSC
16h 39m
Stormgate Nexus
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
LiuLi Cup
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
[ Show More ]
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
FEL Cracow 2025
CC Div. A S7

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Qualifiers
HCC Europe
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025

Upcoming

ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
Thunderpick World Champ.
MESA Nomadic Masters Fall
CS Asia Championships 2025
Roobet Cup 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.