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[D] Finding a reason to get upgrades. - Page 3

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary26003 Posts
July 26 2010 16:13 GMT
#41
Very interesting and informative OP. Thanks for taking the time. I liked reading it and learned a lot.
Moderator
Xahhk
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada540 Posts
July 26 2010 16:48 GMT
#42
On July 26 2010 09:15 harky wrote:
Some interesting stuff. In regard to Carriers though there is a slight flaw. While they do technically get +16 for each weapon upgrade, they also receive -16 for each opposing armor upgrade. D'oh.

This is pretty damaging if you look at something like Carrier vs BC. BCs at +3 have 6 armor. So at +3 weapons a full wave of Interceptors only does 32 damage. That's ~10 DPS. Roughly what 4 Marines would do. It's only slightly better than 1 Stalker... Pretty abysmal against Corruptors (5 armor) as well. Both beat Carriers at roughly half the cost. Vikings do the same, but have the range advantage as well and after you reach a certain mass of Vikings you can take out many times their worth in Carriers. Last I tired I was able to pick off 18 Carriers with 12 Vikings before losing the first Viking (you often take 2-3 hits as you kite away). Basically I traded 150/75 for 8100/4500.

Because of stuff like this don't expect to see Carriers thought of as better. Especially when not only do Terran and Zerg beat them in the air, but so do Void Rays. They do beat Phoenix and Banshees though. Does that count?

Wait, is -16 per armor necessarily the case? If the interceptor shots hit simultaneously doesn't the armor value apply only once? Also in regards to individual interceptors, doesn't their dual attack fire at the same time?
viscral
Profile Joined February 2010
United States45 Posts
July 26 2010 16:57 GMT
#43
I love upgrades, and figuring out which combination and WHY is essential.

Determining what upgrades your opponent has is a subtle but effective way to determine your upgrade path, tactics, and overall strategy. For example, I see hydras, I try to kite at various times to see if he has the range upgrade, and learn how much of his play will revolve around that unit.

I love the carrier bit, as that was the first unit we saw in the original starcraft, when it annihilated the zerg infested terran planet. When I think protoss, that scene is always central. Hope to see more carriers in play.

Anyway, great original post. Thanks.
harky
Profile Joined July 2010
98 Posts
July 26 2010 16:58 GMT
#44
Yes, that's the case for all multi-hit attacks, which are all simultaneous. Even Zealots. While you will hear and see two 'hits' and even see two hit confirms on the defending unit if you look at the health it drops in a single chunk. Same goes for something like the Thor. Their ground attack is 2 hits that happen at the same time and their air attack is 4 hits. Multiple hits are part of how Blizz balances units.
nujgnoy
Profile Joined December 2009
United States204 Posts
July 26 2010 17:15 GMT
#45
I think multi hit attacks get reduced by armor multiple times.

I'll have to look into this but I remember I had my thor attack a unit only once. For example, if I made it move too quickly after shooting a drone, it shot the worker only once and the drone lived. I'm 90% certain this is what happened. If this is true, then multiple attacks would damage a unit in multiple chunks, meaning armor would be applied multiple times.

But this is just what I think and I could be wrong, will have to test it out.
Xapti
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2473 Posts
July 26 2010 17:51 GMT
#46
On July 26 2010 18:24 obsid wrote:
I would call +1 range attack critical if your going a quick roach attack in ZvZ though. 2 hits rather then 3 is big (against zerglings and banelings which is probably what your going to fight). Even if the other guy went roaches too, its still a 12% bump, so its better to have the upgrade and 9 roaches then have 10 roaches and no upgrade. And if you do push out and see roaches, you can always back off and get more roaches (18 roaches with upgrade better then 20 without, etc), force him to keep getting roaches or get overrun, while you save the larva you didnt need because of the upgrade to drone.
I was going to say the same thing.

Except you REALLY need to watch out about getting early upgrades in roach vs roach. Not only does it take a long time for the research to finish (time used to gain more money with drones, or moreso a few more roaches), but the cost of upgradeing level 1 attack is much more than the cost of 1 roach. 1 upgrade is about the same cost of 2.5 roaches. Not only that, but 9 roaches with upgrade isn't even superior to 10 roaches without, because while their damage output is slightly higher (very slight), their pooled heath is LOWER, since they have 145 less health as a whole.

I used to go fast ranged attack, and it would work well cause most people weren't going roaches first, and those that were, it still worked against (because they were too defensive due to teching to mutas, expanding, or something else. But then I got utterly dominated when a guy went standard mass roach. I got fried cause i rushed evo upgrade (and possibly burrow as well), and was just completely out-numbered. Being 2 units down can really swing a mirror match, but this was even worse.
"Then he told me to tell you that he wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" — "Well, you tell him that I said that I wouldn't piss on him if he was on Jeopardy!"
ohN
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States1075 Posts
July 26 2010 18:01 GMT
#47
Very great post. Thanks for this.
Never realized a lot of the points you've made.
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