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It seems to me that zerg lacks any means to really apply any pressure in the early game to terran or protoss opponents. Maybe I am crazy, but it seems like every single game I play as zerg, I feel forced into a macro heavy FE build of some kind to be able to stay competitive into the midgame. I love playing zerg, but it gets tiring doing the same FE builds every game, and then trying to scout/guess what kind of cheesy harassment my opponent will be doing. Whether it be hellions and banshees, hellion/marauder, thor drops, reaper rushes, void rays, pheonix, etc. It just feels as if Zerg poses no threat in the early game other than the threat of building larva and gaining momentum. There is simply no variety, and no means to apply pressure until tier 2. No tricks in the bag so to speak AFAIK.
I started to ask myself whether or not zerg 1 base play is even viable in a non-all-in manner. So far I haven't been able to find any 1 base builds that aren't all-in which allow you apply pressure, or do some kind of successful timing push or harassment that damages your opponents economy.
Why is this?
I think it boils down to a few primary reasons.
1) Wall in's and force field.
In the case of Terran players, defending all early zerg agression is as simple as making a baneling proof wall in and building some units. It's nearly impossible for zerglings, banelings, or roaches, to effectively breach a well-constructed terran base.
In the case of Protoss players, simple sim-city combined with force field makes a protoss ramp impossible to attack. If a zerg player attempts to break a protoss choke, its basically giving protoss a donation of half of your units. Considering forcefields are invincible and sentries spawn with enough energy to cast its simply impossible to break a protoss choke point. I have had limited success with a double gas steal into roach rush build, however its hardly viable as a non-all-in strategy. It's simply not worthwhile to do any sort of 1 base aggression against protoss due to forcefield hard countering all of zergs tier 1 units.
These factors contribute to the theme of terran and protoss players having the freedom to do whatever build they like, whether it be a timing attack, high tech harassment, or fast expanding themselves. Zerg players on the other hand are forced into a heavy macro playstyle which focuses on defending with as little spending as possible and then transitioning into a heavy tier 2 unit composition. I really think that this stifles any creativity that we may see from zerg players.
2) Zerg tier 1 unit choices.
Zerg's tier 1 unit choices simply pose no threat to terran or protoss forces. Protoss and terran opponents who have fast expanded can make use of the planetary fortress, forcefield, or simply sim-city to completely negate all threat of zerg attack.
The zergling, while mobile and adept at scouting and harassment as well as killing units on open ground, is completely useless without a surround, and is even worse against zealots than in starcraft one. (There was a thread doing the numbers earlier in the beta).
The baneling, which typically only sees use against MMM or zealot heavy builds, is a highly situational unit, whos cost makes it ineffective at destroying high HP buildings such as gateways and barracks. While this unit poses a huge threat to groups of tier 1 units, its nothing that the armored marauder or stalker cannot handle, and also greatly suffers from forcefield usage.
The roach, possibly the only hope of zerg applying early aggression, was once a unit that people legitimately feared. Good players could still defend a roach rush without too much trouble, and then the roach got nerfed even further, making it essentially a zealot with 3 range that receives insane damage from anti-armor units. With burrow 100/100 at tier 2, and the regen being reduced, its not even nearly as threatening in the midgame either.
With these being the only early options, it really feels as if zerg players have absolutely no reason not to commit to a macro intensive fast expand build regardless of what their opponent is doing. Once tier 2 rolls around, the hydralisk, infestor, mutalisk, nydus worm, ventral sacks, tunneling claws etc. unlock a myriad of possibilities for zerg, but again, this tech does not seem overly threatening unless its coming from a 2 base 4 gas economy.
I think this problem primarily stems from the zerg having no real ranged tier 1 unit, and the roach being nerfed to the point where it isn't threatening in small numbers. In the alpha stages of this game blizzard stated that there was a role conflict between the ultralisk and roach (both being high hp tank units) and as a result made the roach tier 1. This of course solved absolutely nothing but denying zerg a ranged support unit at tier 1 and forcing zerg players into the aforementioned play style. I really feel that the hydra should have been a less potent tier 1 support unit, but this far into the beta I'm obviously not expecting that to change any time soon.
What do you think? Do you agree that zerg is pigeon-holed? Do you think this is a problem for the game as far as diversity of play and spectator value are concerned? Do you think gameplay will evolve to a point where this is no longer the case? In which ways do you think zerg can apply threat in the early game?
Note: I originally posted this in the SC2 forum for discussion, but apparently it doesn't fit the requirements and was considered a "balance discussion without enough supporting evidence". I did not intend this to be a balance discussion as much as a gameplay discussion, nor do I understand how it doesn't meet the SC2 forum requirements. I don't question the admin team (the discussion went downhill after page 3 anyways), but It seems it would be better suited for a discussion thread in the strategy forum anyways no? I really do feel that this is an important gameplay issue to discuss, and I'm sure many top zerg players feel the same way.
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i think baneling if used correctly fills the role of a pressure unit, except againts toss really. i would really like them to be viable vs toss, but with sentry its just too easy to stop.
i dont think there is any way to pressure toss early(other than like 10 or less pool), you have to play a macro game, survive their cheese, and hold off any early/mid game pushes, and then mid game you can finally be on even footing. only option for harass is muta, but againts most timing pushes you cant save the gas needed until you have successfully held and saturated your second base.
againts t, i think baneling is viable for pressure, even if it just forces them to build a stronger choke. its easy to scout a choke before you are committed and switch your build to macro or defensive play depending on the circumstances. but at that point, yea theres no way to effectively harrass, and you will most likely be a little behind and put on the defensive.
overall(excluding zvz) i would like to be more agressive with zerg, but i end up having to play really defensively most of the time and maximize drone production while hoping i have enough to stop a push.
before roach was nerfed, i almost always went roach pressure, now i hardly ever build roaches until after i get hydra or muta out. but i think thats probably a good thing, because mass roaches was worse for gameplay than what we have now, imo.
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Banelings are very good at taking out pylons. Zerg dose have less options but most of their units are generalists and are able to fit many roles. banelings take a bit of practice to use effectively but are great at breaking wall ins of every kind. They are also cheap and easily accessible because they morph from lings. They are suicide units so you have to justify the cost of using them by taking out key or expensive structures or alot of units.
Zerg T1 feels more like an early mapcontrol froce. and as far as forcefield is conscerned a sentry at full energy can only use 4 forcefields and they cost 100 gas so thats one less immortal the Toss has for every sentry.
Zerg shouldnt spent too much time in the early game however as once they reach lair tech they have alot more options. Zerg is a race you have to get creative with. They are more focused on how you use your units rather than what units you make.
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i read this on a live-feed chat once and it stuck in my mind:
the focus of each race:
Terran: adaptability
Zerg: numbers
Protoss: late game power
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Eh, peckham, that might look good on paper (or a monitor =P) but each race is much more than those three things you listed.
Zergs are very, very good at switching builds/strategies and have Brood Lords (which demolish if used correctly/the opponent doesn't counter/opponent messes up etc.
Terrans are capable of creating mass armies extremely quickly with the reactor and have very powerful units (almost "hero" units according to some people haha)
Protoss can mass units extremely quickly with enough warp gates, and can transition fairly quickly if need be, though they are decidedly slow at adapting into higher tier units (however, the tier 1/1.5 units can be created quickly and collectively can fight off most other strategies).
If I'm wrong, tell me so. roflcopter
Um, on topic: this might be because I'm just a lowly Copper toss (I played my ranking matches before I knew anything >~< ), but I feel that fast zerglings whenever I fail to create units quickly enough will utterly destroy me. If I'm not paying attention or fail to get that sentry/enough zealots out early enough, a bunch of zerglings will just come in and set me back for essentially the rest of the game. Zergs can create a bunch of units, scout a build, adapt to it extremely quickly, and send more units out that are effective against a build. Even if they can't scout it, zergs are still capable of transitioning quickly and efficiently if they cannot manage to contain an opponent. The same can be said of the other races in terms of the fact that you will not always be able to make your opponent fear the threat of some giant build designed to bust you. All races do have that fear factor of whether they'll go for an all-in build.
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You seem to be missing the fact that if Protoss or Terran do these one base builds they are banking on doing serious damage. If they don't they have essentially lost the game. The "economic snowball effect" for Zerg is superior to the other races because of their ability to spawn so many drones so quickly. There's a point where the other races cannot catch up and must resort to other means to win. The other races are under incredible "pressure" to keep up. You may not realize this if you only play Zerg. Zerg ARE a huge threat early game!
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Pick any of your replays, and then look at the unit count. Watch as you out drone your opponents VERY quickly. This results in a HUGE income advantage as zerg have VERY cheap units. T and P HAVE to try and do something to slow down your huge macro advantage or they will just die.
Just try and play a game as T or P v Z, and just let the Z 15/15/15 macro... then see how well you fare mid game... not so well.
Next, try and play as Z on 1 base v T or P. Guess what happens, you end up larva blocked. Hatches are your production buildings, a hatch is more like a gateway or barracks IMHO than a nexus or CC.
A FE for zerg, is more like getting a 2nd early rax or gateway. They let you put out more units, and just so happen let you pull up a second base.
Not to mention, Zerg is supposed to creep across the map, destroying your opponents dreams has he watches you take all the bases and out macro him. Toss and Terran, even in the Single player and in the Lore are just trying to fight Zerg off before they get a foot hold on any planet. Play the game the same way. T and P are trying to keep you from getting your macro machine up, once you do its GG.
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I completely agree with the OP.
As a relatively unbiased terran and zerg player, I think it's bullshit how easily terran can wall off and tech to something nice and fancy. Mass rines can hold off quite well while banshees are being rushed into your base.
Zerg can't wall without a ton of units that can die, and there's nothing zerg can tech to to produce 2 units and do deadly damage the way a couple reapers, banshees, vikings, hellions, DTs, void rays can.
I'm all for race diversity but this is some bullshit. I'm never worried about the zerg player in my game because its a piece of cake to scout them constantly. Terran? No such luck.
I find zerg is far too dependent on hydras for their anti air and good luck surviving if you don't have a den or a lair down (maybe you expod?) by the time banshees roll in.
I feel like terran can so easily adapt to the opponent, especially when their first unit can hit air. This means there is never an "oh shit, he got XYZ" unit as terran. Slap a tech lab on a starport and you've got everything covered if the need arises, even detection. Zerg may benefit from increased production (if you've got the minerals) but I feel that the lack of dual unit production buildings is some bullshit. If a hydra den allowed you to get hydras and lurkers, that would be very interesting (the way spire opens corruptors and mutas). But currently, early to mid game is a constant struggle to make sure you don't get caught on the wrong foot.
No one is arguing that zerg is too weak or too strong, but I feel that zerg is pidgeon holed and has a whole other reactionary dynamic than the other races because there is not a single tactical unit they can tech to do terrible terrible damage. Thus, you're stuck at T1 for early to mid game and your only incentive to reach T2 is to get an army of mutas (an army, because 2 aint shit) or to get your T2 GtA hydra.
I too have no faith in Blizzard's ability to correct this situation before their first expansion. Zerg isn't weak, but you are forced to cover so many areas in early-mid game until you can comfortably produce most of your units that it is daunting and repetitive to play as Z. As Terran, I feel like the world is my oyster and I can choose from a 100 different strategies to pressure my opponent. As zerg, I'm busy making sure I don't get rolled by any of those 100 strategies so that once I can have some hydras and infestors out, we may have a fair fight.
My 2 minerals.
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Ever tried blocking your ramp with a hatchery?
The downside is, you don't get the additional resources like if you had build it down the ramp.
The upside is, you don't need a lot of units to defend, so you can concentrate on drones and queens (from two hatches) and tech.
Allows you to go lair extremely fast, and once lair is done, you can very quickly get the lair upgrades in the two hatches and expand multiple times from there.
Might need some tinkering to get the timings right. But a blocked ramp also means, you are more free to harass with your units. Or opt not to harass at all, since you pump drones faster anyway, you wont get far behind.
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I'm new to beta. 90 games played (only as zerg, zerg ftw!). Only Bronze. But still I agree with OP and Vexx.
I realize the reason for me not being higher is not because of balance but because I suck.So this is not the reason I'm posting. I'm posting cause I do think zerg has to play a certain way all the time and our options are always based on the opponent.
I would like to elaborate on what focus on each race is as someone typed above. As a Zerg player this is how it feels like
Protoss: Strong counters and utility.
Terran: Freedom to choose tech, playstyle and harass.
Zerg: Adaptability.
Playing as Zerg I feel like its my job to know what my opponent is doing and counter what he brings to me. I need to balance drone production with army and get a big enough army at the right time not negelecting economy at the same time. Scouting is so important for Zerg. Mor for Z then for P and T early game I believe in ZvP and ZvT match ups. If you do not build the proper units you will die to T and P.
I mean a P player can pretty much before the game decide I'm going 1 gate or 2 gate or 3 gate. As zerg you gotta respond to whatever they build. And also you need scout of mid game void, immortals or whatever. Same with terran, what harass are they going, is he expo, is he not, MMM, etc. It feels like the games I play is pretty much about to adapt to whatever timing push T or P has decided to do. If I survive it I win, if not I loose, most often. Everytime its Z that has to adapt to how P or T wanna play, they control the early game and shape the mid game by doing so.
Maybe this is just cause I suck and can't claim the initiative initally. But I feel this way even facing ppl that play much worse then me, its just that the timing push is laughable and then I win.
Its also especially obvious when you finally play a ZvZ now you can actually be the one putting pressure. Even though ZvZ matches brings a pretty booring early game revolving mostly around when you put up your pool. But atleast you can get the initiative and pressure and that feels nice.
If this is the way its meant to be thats ok. Be it lore whatever. But I'd still like to have a few more options early game independent of what my opponent is doing
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As Zergs we have to get over the fact Dark Swarm was stolen and given to terran and that we where ever allowed to contain/defend with lurkers or that plague was twisted along with muta micro getting cut and ultras being virtually pointless.
Now we are over that we have to evolve and think more creatively with how to use:-
blings
burrowed blings (vulture mine style but manually)
corruption+muta harass
fungal spams
neural attack/defence
drops
nydus
ultra cleave
fast army tech switches
creep tumor spams
We feel we have to go through the motions tier 1 and we pretty much do as there is only so much ling/bling/slow roach can do and embrace its limited at that tier and once we get into lair then our game starts.
I feel we have a tendency to stop using so many tactics at tier 2 because things are so basic at tier 1. We should just view tier 1 as the flowchart to get to tier 2.
I saw a ling into infestor then roach hydra completely turn a game the other day on Goatropes awesome stream as well as good burrowed blings melt a mmm ball without the raven detection scare a terran so badly.
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i 8 pool alot with zerg against toss and terran, as long as u dont invest too much in lings and stick at 6-8 and keep them alive it can work out pretty well.
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On May 03 2010 07:27 Insanious wrote:
Pick any of your replays, and then look at the unit count. Watch as you out drone your opponents VERY quickly. This results in a HUGE income advantage as zerg have VERY cheap units. T and P HAVE to try and do something to slow down your huge macro advantage or they will just die.
Just try and play a game as T or P v Z, and just let the Z 15/15/15 macro... then see how well you fare mid game... not so well.
Next, try and play as Z on 1 base v T or P. Guess what happens, you end up larva blocked. Hatches are your production buildings, a hatch is more like a gateway or barracks IMHO than a nexus or CC.
A FE for zerg, is more like getting a 2nd early rax or gateway. They let you put out more units, and just so happen let you pull up a second base.
Not to mention, Zerg is supposed to creep across the map, destroying your opponents dreams has he watches you take all the bases and out macro him. Toss and Terran, even in the Single player and in the Lore are just trying to fight Zerg off before they get a foot hold on any planet. Play the game the same way. T and P are trying to keep you from getting your macro machine up, once you do its GG.
T is never far behind a zerg FE in econ with MULES.
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I play zerg, and honestly I haven't experience any of the above problems. Disclaimer: I'm only in bronze 2v2 with ~1400 score so maybe I just haven't experience higher levels of play.
If they wall in, you have map control, expand.
Yes, voids and banshees do come out early, but that can be dealt with by dropping down a few spore colonies to hold off air until you get enough gas to mass hydras/mutas.
You have options to get in the base; air, drops, nedus. Or just deny your opponents of expansions and starve them & gg.
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On May 03 2010 09:47 febreze wrote:
I play zerg, and honestly I haven't experience any of the above problems. Disclaimer: I'm only in bronze 2v2 with ~1400 score so maybe I just haven't experience higher levels of play.
If they wall in, you have map control, expand.
This is stupid advice for reasons covered in the thread already. A SC2 wall is a one team door, not a wall.
You can start talking about map control once you have an army that controls the map and contains your opponent. Fast expanding is an investment (an expense) that does not pay for itself for a few minutes. Until the point where the expansion is making profit, you are behind one base play and if they attack during that period of time, you will lose.
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I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
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On May 03 2010 06:52 peckham33 wrote:
i read this on a live-feed chat once and it stuck in my mind:
Protoss: late game power
lol
@OP
You'd be amazed at how much pressure speedlings apply to toss. IF you're actually not good enough to monitor my sentry energy and try to brute force your way in (which is very possible if i'm not spamming sentries, which more often, I am not) you will at least force me to stare at my ramp a lot and screw up my macro. You'll also contain me from leaving my base, and if you back off, i'll still have to play it safe because i don't want to loose expensive units to flanking lings.
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zerg is basically a sitting duck until lair tech, zerglings suck, speedlings take forever to upgrade, banelings cant take down proper wall ins, and roaches are slow as hell while the enemy run circles around them
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I think the problem with Zerg early game is that Zerglings pose little to no threat in SC2 compared to SC1. Workers can hold off zerglings off a lot better with the auto surround and better worker AI, plus Zealots annihilate them even more than in SC1.
I wouldn't mind seeing Zerglings being a little more potent, even if it made them more expensive or something.
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The real problem is Zerg really cannot afford to delay Lair much at all. Their complete lack of AA at t1 except for the queen or investing in evo/spores early is just such a ball buster.
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EPT
