[D] Zerg threat in the early game. - Page 4

On May 05 2010 08:41 peckham33 wrote:
how about zerglings do more damage . there, problem solved

On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.

Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.

I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained.

On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:


That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap.

I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even.

On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:


This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here.

On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:


That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap.

I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even.

On May 05 2010 10:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:


That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow).

FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why.

On May 05 2010 10:10 travis wrote:


You respond to me like I am complaining.

Anyways, if you think zerg can play strong 1base like terran or protoss u have to be joking.

On May 05 2010 10:16 Wr3k wrote:


There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to get started. Zerg cannot contain and FE at the same time, nor can they successfully 1 base against T or P without going all-in. You don't get to choose between early game agression and macro because the agression is NON THREATENING. Any number of zerglings, banelings, and roaches can be dealt with in a choke point. Meanwhile T and P are teching to air/drop/superior units. This gives T and P the choices between early agression and macro. Do you really think a few lings or roaches will stop any decent terran or protoss player from expanding if they want to? No, and the reason why is that T and P have hardcounters to tier 1 zerg units, and the economic advantage of a FE build doesn't kick until later, after the zerg has built a ton of hydra+X. Any threat of containment or early agression completely disappears with hellion/banshee/immortal/void ray/forcefield in play.

On May 05 2010 10:17 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:


I'm not suggesting either.



Believe what you like. I won't continue the fruitless debate. If you truly believe zerg to be that handicapped, i highly reccomend you play another race just to get a better understanding of the other end of your matches.

On May 05 2010 10:37 Wr3k wrote:


This thread is not discussing balance. Zerg isn't handicapped or worse off than terran or protoss they are just forced into a macro game. I explained in the OP why I think this is negative for the diversity / complexity of play in SC2. Any of your beloved korean zergs would agree that the most reliable opener against T and P involves FE. Why do you think korean zergs make such heavy usage of spine crawlers?

On May 05 2010 10:51 ChimpyNuts wrote:
Heres a great thread ...

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122184

showing you tons of variations of Zerg build orders, I actually decided to try Zerg recently and decided to switch to them and I find using them is really pleasureable, I act extremely aggresively with them , I love Speedlings and banelings...


Oversky build (ZvP) - Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. (13p Ling pressure)
- Hide Spoiler -
-13pool
-15gas
-16queen
-@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas
-18hatch
-23ov

Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout.
@~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls.

Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build.
Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs.


Try this Build Order against a Protoss, I dare you, seriously I rarely lose against Protoss, even with Zealots sitting in a single file way you have so many lings you just overrun them, and usually I can somehow fit through anyway ... (I usually keep the Drones on Gas, I take a peek with earlier Lings and if I feel its gonna be tough I make banelings !)


Too many players expect you to do the standard Economic builds, so when they suddenly have like 30 Speedlings at there door they aint ready.

P.S I am Platinum , promoted from Gold and can use all the races to good effect, I got bored of using Protoss and seeing so many, and though Zerg isnt used enough, and now when I see Protoss I am happy

On May 05 2010 13:59 Brightside6382 wrote:
lol zerglings are weak? What game are you guys playing?

On May 05 2010 14:10 Balor wrote:


I think the point of the discussion is that lings are really ineffective vs a well manned choke. Since this is zergs 1 of 2 units that is less than tier 2, it seriously limits our options, the only time it is efficient to attack is if the opponent has his units outside his base in an open enviorment, since we have noother way to get around the choke before tier 2, we must react to whatever the opponent is doing.

On May 05 2010 14:10 Balor wrote:


I think the point of the discussion is that lings are really ineffective vs a well manned choke. Since this is zergs 1 of 2 units that is less than tier 2, it seriously limits our options, the only time it is efficient to attack is if the opponent has his units outside his base in an open enviorment, since we have noother way to get around the choke before tier 2, we must react to whatever the opponent is doing.