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This post was saying what I have been thinking for so long.
This has been such a problem for me. I have been trying for the last week even to be more aggressive with zerg and its so hard to be forceful because we don't have the drones to keep the army count as high. Toss can 1 base 4 gate 1 robo and crush us lots of times, even with mass hydra which is pretty good vs 4g1r.
What always gets me is the other races have SO many options while zerg have one really clear option. Get FE, macro, and build just enough to hold off first push. If first push does not come before 9 mins, build an army, push out and take another expo, begin macro again. Assume map control, contain and suffocate the econ.
I have been playing random, and when I get T v Z I just LOLOLOL. Reaper rush to hellion to viking/banshee to thor/seige drops finished with an MMM/Hellion/Thor is just so strong if pulled off right. Reapers come out around the time the queen is out or a little before, kill 3-5 drones, hellion keep the expo at bay and force roach/spine crawlers. Vikings stop map vision and snip OLs while banshees make quick work of drones. Top it all off with mech drops and then a MMM push. What is zerg to do?
Toss can just 1 base stalker/colo and lolroflstomp 80% of zerg players. Only muta/infester/corrupt can stop the colo, and if you DONT have that tech, you lose.
I think zerg need army diversity because right now, this mass hydra vs all strat is not only boring but limiting to the zerg army. ZvZ is just who makes what unit before the other.
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First post on TL. Top 20 silver player, not really been much into Starcraft till now but loving the beta. My skills are developing but my micro/macro still needs some significant work.
I play zerg almost exclusively, and I've been thinking a lot about this issue.
I think the real issue is one of initiative. Zerg are far too often forced to react as the other player dictates the course of the game, at least initially, by walling and teching to the units/strategy of their choice. Once this happens as Zerg you are forced to either sacrifice a 100 mineral overlord which moves painfully slow just to get a vague sense of what they are doing or you need to guess and tech lair asap. All this while making sure you stay at LEAST 1 hatch ahead of them.
From my very limited experience, 6/8 pool seems one of the very few ways to apply early pressure. Once they've walled forget it. Part of my frustration stems from underdeveloped micro skills. That's a skill issue. But I do feel at times that drones/scv/probes are a little too powerful vs lings.
Going on, once they've walled, unless you decide to simply respond to their build (which might be your best bet anyway) I feel like the only option to regain initiative is to bling/sling bust which is actually an all in move anyway. Not to mention that unless the person is retarded, blings have a hard time busting a good wall.
What I would like to see is a very slight buff to lings hp or something. Maybe a slight nerf to worker damage would be better. At the end of the day, i actually love zerg play style. If I've actually done a good job scouting, its actually pretty simple to counter whatever they are throwing at you, especially if they are expecting to take you off guard. Once their all in as lolfailed, you have the initiative again.
All in all, I just wish there were slightly more options for capturing the initiative early on beyond 6/8pool rush. But you can't deny that the very fact that people wall almost ALWAYs vs zerg is testament to the threat posed by an unchecked zerg force.
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All in all, I just wish there were slightly more options for capturing the initiative early on beyond 6/8pool rush. But you can't deny that the very fact that people wall almost ALWAYs vs zerg is testament to the threat posed by an unchecked zerg force.
I dont think that ppl actually wall in because they are afraid of zerg so much.
I think players wall in, because it basically costs them nothing at all, and is incredibly effective.
Think of it like this: I am not very afraid of a proxy gateway rush, and there are other ways to deal with it. But if building my spawning pool touching my hatchery made me completely immune to it... Then why the hell would I not do that?
PPl dont wall in because they are scared of what could happen, they wall in because it costs them next to nothing, and it stops all early agression.
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I think Zerg early game pressure is summed up pretty well by the poster. Early agression is very easily dealt with by walling off the choke. Unless theres a back door with breakable rocks the early game is very limited for zerg. Banelings are very risky and more of an all in build so far. The fact you need to make an entirely separate building delays the banelings alot. Whats worse is if after the bust there are hellions or a bunker then most likely this is a loss.
That leaves FE, or tech . I've yet to find a consistant one hatch tech build. Wihtout lurkers its pretty un feasible to one hatch tech; unless you like looking like road kill. One Hatch mutas can be negated incredibly easily. So I come up with same conclusion , play style is pretty restricted to some kind of macro/fe build for Z at this time.
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It's a bit of an issue and it limits zergs play style a lot early on.
Base defence:
Protoss: Can block their choke ,can toss some cannons or simply use a sentry.
Just the fact that they can forcefield the ramp right after some units enter pushing half your army out makes it a risk alone.
Terran: Walls in pretty easy and a few Marauders behind the wall rape roaches.
Zerg: spine crawlers work but they don't block chokes + they are expensive early game considering they cost larva/drone.
Basically Toss and Terran negate the risk vs reward by going heavy eco/teching early on.
AA: Zerg has no good AA tech 1 units which forces a zerg to tech up with in a certain time other wise you lose vs void rays or banshees.
Tier 1 units: Roach/baneling/Zergling
Both Protoss and Terran counter zergs tier 1 units quite well this allows both of them to pressure the zerg player while still being able to keep their choke blocked.
Actually it allows them to win the match if the zerg player didn't infested enough resources in an army which needs to be equal if not bigger to counter.
Even if they mess up and you beat their force you cant pass their base, if you hang in front of their base you will get outnumbers and will be forced to move back.
Harassment: Zerg can't do this protoss/terran can.
Aside from zergs balance mid/end game early game zerg is very vulnerable which is al right.
But the other two races don't share the risk vs reward.
Partly because of AA and partly because it is to easy to counter zerg duo to ranged units early game.
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Some of these early game strats n variations sound very interesting for Z... I'm gonna try a few once I get home.
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Yeah, I find that zerg cannot effectively apply early pressure to me as toss unless I screw up. First, I always wall off my choke leaving a 1 zealot gap. This small step solves most potential problems by itself. Sentries and forcefield solve most of the rest. If the zerg is planning some 1-base rush (roaches, speedlings, or baneling bust), I almost always see it coming with active probe scouting. This gives me ample time to throw up a cannon or two (I build forge right after core in all my PvZ's), which combined with the wall-in and sentries, will shut down any 1-base zerg rush. I only lose to zerg rushes if I forget to leave my zealots on hold position, allowing zerglings to run into my base, or if I'm not paying attention and allow banelings to bust my choke. Again, it's purely my fault when that happens.
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On May 05 2010 03:23 xDaunt wrote:
Yeah, I find that zerg cannot effectively apply early pressure to me as toss unless I screw up. First, I always wall off my choke leaving a 1 zealot gap. This small step solves most potential problems by itself. Sentries and forcefield solve most of the rest. If the zerg is planning some 1-base rush (roaches, speedlings, or baneling bust), I almost always see it coming with active probe scouting. This gives me ample time to throw up a cannon or two (I build forge right after core in all my PvZ's), which combined with the wall-in and sentries, will shut down any 1-base zerg rush. I only lose to zerg rushes if I forget to leave my zealots on hold position, allowing zerglings to run into my base, or if I'm not paying attention and allow banelings to bust my choke. Again, it's purely my fault when that happens.
If he's allowing you to actively scout with probes beyond the initial probe, you're playing a pretty bad zerg TBH. Most plat zerg i've encountered will keep a half dozen lings on probe duty near my ramp. While I can push out to scare them off, it forces me to file in and out of my tiny choke point and really opens me up to either letting more lings in (if he went heavy on speedlings), or just keeping my attention early on, which is a pain in itself.
I've also played a few crafty zerg who like to leave a bait overlord just in sight so i run out to snipe it. He'll surround as many of my sentries as he can and run off with few losses. Very annoying, because if i ignore the overlord, he'll probably do a fly-by of my base once he's got movement speed.
I think Z really under-estimate containment as opposed to early pressure that's intended to kill the opponent. Containment really plays to Z's strength a lot more. They're a brutal macro machine if they get the chance to be, and they've got a much faster rate of tech switching. Just keep the enemy starved for scouting info with some lings and make yourself aware of what's going on with ovie scouting.
Chances are pretty good the toss will be going all-in from gateways anyhow, so that makes your offensive pressure kinda pointless. You're far better off using his travel time to your advantage and letting static D and superior positioning give you an edge while he's desperately trying to expo or follow-up with another attack.
P's only way around this is being really annoying early on, zealot pressure on any FE, use phoenix or VR to make him pay attention to his overlords, and try to get an obs, phoenix scout, or hallucinated scout into his base asap so you know what you'll need to get in there and cause some econ damage as soon as possible. Leaving the zerg alone isn't an option. If you let him be agreessive and take the map, he'll run you over. If you force him to sit idle in his base a lot, don't let him pressure you much, you need only read his build and respond with the proper insect-crushing device (stalker,sentry, colossi probably the most popular).
Beware of infestors, and if you see corrupters at any point, figure out where the greater spire is and kill it. Brood Lords can turn the best PvZ into a nightmare, but the spire takes a looong time to build. Snipe it with an immo drop, void rays, or dt, and he'll be set back (and probably rage at you like most Z i've done this to) big time.
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Zerg is fine - lings serve their purpose as a constant economy threat that forces T and P to wall off while Z takes the map.
Zerg threat in early game = you leave them idle, they develop an unstoppable macro faster than you can blink.
Actually disregard all that in favor of OP's veiled suggestion to make all races completely homogeneous as far as strategy.
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I think the question is... how do u really pull off blooming that unstoppable macro? What's the proper balanced way to juggle army/tech/eco?
If you make too many drones and not enough units for your army, a timed attack will run u over (6/9min Immo/Colossus push). This also applies to an aerial rush (VRs/mass phoenix to snipe queens).
If you make too many units to stop the timed attacks (Ling/Roach/Banes or go T2 for Hydra/Muta/Infestor), and you are unable to really put them to good use, P/T can simply expand as you sit in your base and outmacro your unsaturated bases.
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I love zerg early harass with speed lings. I do a 14 pool 13 extractor. First 100 gas goes to speedlings. Second 100 for lair. I start building lings at around 22-23 and whe nI get 10, if I can i'll run them to the mineral line. I get a 2nd extractor when I start lair. I might drop a spine crawler if I feel like being a bit more safe. I'll grab an expo whenever its convenient, usually at like 23 when I'm starting my harass.
I find this transitions well to T2 while having the threat of speedlings. I can really pin down toss and if I don't mess up their economy with the first 10 lings, I force them to put up cannons while I tech to mutas/corrupters.
Depending on what I see I'll adjust, I may delay lair tech for banelings if I see a terran wall-in. I get about 6 banelings, bust the door and swarm in the lings.
Against toss, when they go 1gate1core tech route I can really mess them up. If its a 2gate build if I can get a good surround on a zealot or two, its usually gg. But its a lot tougher, sometimes I just run my speedlings by and destroy their economy.
I'm only in Gold, well Rank 1 silver, but I feel that my strategy is pretty solid. It definitely needs tweaking and learning but I finally have picked a strat and I'm going to stick with it until I really learn its strengths and weaknesses.
On a side note, I finally feel like I'm getting better. A week and a half ago I started this game I was struggling in bronze, but working my way up and improving all aspects of my game and now I'm knocking on gold league! It only took 150 games lol. I only started maining on zerg like 10 games ago, I've been random the whole time.
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On May 05 2010 05:11 Bloodwolf wrote:
I think the question is... how do u really pull off blooming that unstoppable macro? What's the proper balanced way to juggle army/tech/eco?
If you make too many drones and not enough units for your army, a timed attack will run u over (6/9min Immo/Colossus push). This also applies to an aerial rush (VRs/mass phoenix to snipe queens).
If you make too many units to stop the timed attacks (Ling/Roach/Banes or go T2 for Hydra/Muta/Infestor), and you are unable to really put them to good use, P/T can simply expand as you sit in your base and outmacro your unsaturated bases.
Uh, it varies (as it should) from game to game. You're either being agressive (ie. he didn't open phoenix) and trying to contain him while spending minimally on other combat units to bloom your econ while he's in his base, OR you're being responsive to his troop movement (he opened phenix and forced you to get hydras and extra queens) and expanding when you've secured your base from pheonix harassment and you can be sure his limited gateway troops won't come in to muck over your expansion efforts.
Being put on the back-foot by early pheonix is a harder position to expand from, but it also forces the toss player to expend a good deal of resources on phoenix, which are otherwise pretty useless (once you've secured your base), and easy to counter. Just don't feed him mutas and his phoenix probably won't pay for themselves. Use the time he's spending trying to get his own expo going and tech switch to something else (usually colossi) to expand yourself, take multipul expansions if he's really short on troops.
The key is not letting go of map control. Keep spreading creep so your troops are mobile and don't let him push you back into your own base unless he's willing to commit to 1-base all-in style of play (which of course gives you a pretty easy win if you repulse it, since he'll be way behind on econ). You've got far more mobile units. Just don't let him throw pylons all over the map and he shouldn't be able to suprise you at all.
I'll comment on any replays you want to post. I feel evenly matched against the zerg in my plat division and it seems like a very balanced (although very hectic on both sides) match-up, at the moment.
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I'll macro up all day with glee if the other player wants to wall in.
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I'll macro up all day with glee if the other player wants to wall in.
If the opponent put up a wall of gateway, pylon, zealot on hold, and a sentry, its not like its actually putting him behind at all the same way as if he decided to spam cannons, but it still makes him pretty safe.
But it doesnt really change the whole point of this post:
If he walls in, you cannot choose to macro. You are forced to macro, because it means that you cannot do any early aggression with roaches or zerglings.
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Zerg has baneling bust and the threat of a 7 pool. Thats all they need. You have to worry about that because you can instantly lose.
They don't need anymore because they are so wildly superior to the other races in a straight macro game (why do you think Idra plays Zerg?) T and P have to abuse timing windows generally to beat Z right now, because Zerg macro is so strong.
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I can only say one thing.
WE WANT LUNKERS BACK!!!
*sighs fast tech to lurks used to be soooooo much fun in BW! (In both ZvT AND ZvP!)
"/ I wouldn't mind trading banelings (or roaches) for lurkers...
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There is a lot of unnecessary whining in this thread that is mostly unwarrented. Honestly, I feel it is stemming from players who are set in their ways (perhaps from SC1) and refuse a change in paradigm.
"Zerg don't have early game harass" "lings can be stopped by simply walling off" - So can any form of harass(early marine push, marauder, chronoboosted zealots, zerglings, roaches, etc.) aside from the Reaper which the Zerg can easily defend against. I dare you to play a series of games against an opponent (name your non-Zerg race) doesn't wall off and both players play standard. See if the zerglings (and the follow up attacks) from a 12-15 pool don't do more damage then what they send at you. It's part of balancing the game.
"Zerg must blindly tech to Lair to defend against air" - Are we serious? Were you not planning on teching to Lair anyways? Or would you prefer to just sit at T1 and win every game with lings and roaches? Terran are the only race that doesn't have to tech up past their first building to defend against air but most air units fare quite well against the Marine (as do zerglings/zealots)
"Zerg are bland" - This one is my favorite. Playing against Zerg I typically see the same strategies, Muta-ling Roach/Hydra etc. Has anyone considered trying these:
Build a couple infestors and burrow-move them into your opponent's mineral line. Have Drop the Plag-goo on the workers and spam Infested Terran, the combined damage will destroy their mineral line in seconds and the infestors are free to burrow move out of there (until the Raven/Obs arrives to kill them, but they've done their damage at this point).
Leaving a burrowed zergling at every un-captured mineral node, tucking it close to the minerals still lets them place their town hall (meaning you gain sight of it without tipping them off by interrupting their construction) allowing for immediate knowledge of expansions with minimal risk on your behalf. Hell, if Zerglings are half as useless as some of you are making them out to be then there should be little issue assigning this duty to them.
Corruptors - Stopping all building production for 30 seconds from key Terran/Protoss tech or production buildings. Imagine how frustrated a Terran player will be when their 550/150 Planetary Fortress is helpless to defend against an incomming raid.
Additionally, early harass comes in many forms other then doing economic damage. Forcing your opponent to spend resources on things he doesn't necessarily want to build is just as good as letting your zerglings snack on their mineral line. Camping a dozen zergling outside their choke disallows them to move out allowing you to tech up - or forcing them to switch their build order while keeping them blind to your actions.
I have plenty more to offer but I feel this is getting rather long so I will leave it be for now.
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"Zerg don't have early game harass" "lings can be stopped by simply walling off" - So can any form of harass(early marine push, marauder, chronoboosted zealots, zerglings, roaches, etc.) aside from the Reaper which the Zerg can easily defend against
Well no, not really.
When I was playing terran, I was going for a 12 rax 13 rax 15 orbital build with no gas until later on.
You get a bunch of early marines, but its not all-in, you have an expo building.
You move out with your first 7 marines, if you get to a terran base, he walled off, and has 2-3 marines behind his wall, you can shoot down the supply depot, or kill his marines by standing at the top of the ramp, or kill SCVs if they come to repair. 14 zerglings, against a wall, and 3 marines behind it, along with SCV repairing just doesnt compare. the lings die, and you did nearly no damage.
I dont want to win outright with zerglings, or marines every game, that would be boring.
I just feel like it should be possible to apply some pressure early on, without going for an all-in build.
Terran can do that, protoss too to some extent, zerg cannot.
Staring at your opponent and macroing without ever engaging in a fight until you are T2 seems like a bland opening if you ask me. It should be viable, sure, but it would be nice if there was other things you could do too.
Edit: And yeah, once you get to tier 2, a lot of things open up, you can do a lot of different stuff, that isnt the issue though.
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Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained.
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how about zerglings do more damage  . there, problem solved
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EPT
