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I think a point that has been overlooked is that buildings for Zerg cost drones. To get more drones, you have to get larva from hatcheries. Unfortunately for Zerg, to keep up with economy, they now have to more drones. In turn, they have less larva to turn into an army. Sure, mid-game when you constantly have to remember to inject with queens, you should be rolling in larva ready to re-produce the army you just lost. But in early game, the only thing I'm waiting for as a Zerg player is MORE LARVA.
On the other hand, Protoss have been granted the "Chrono-boost" ability, which allows them to gather a great amount of probes quickly. Not only that, but they get to warp in buildings, allowing them to get right back to work and mine more. They don't have to wait to produce any guys, they can just simply queue more an chrono-boost them out. When they are ready for their army, they don't have to choose between more probes or more zealots - they can do both at the same time, as much as their minerals allow them.
Think of a Zerg economy build:
7 drone
8 drone
9 drone
9 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
13 drone
14 drone
From here, you can choose to expand or build your spawning pool. Either way, you're waiting for more larva to get back the drones you lose to buildings (and scouting). Let's say your 14th drone builds your spawning pool. Now you have one less drone mining, so the 50 minerals you spent on the drone was a down payment on what has actually cost you 250 minerals for a spawning pool, + the loss of a drone. What else have you purchased? Oh, an overlord, so your first "building" in an economy build has cost you a total of 350 minerals and the loss of a worker.
A Protoss economy build might be the following:
7 probe
8 probe
9 probe
9 pylon
10 probe
11 probe*
12 probe*
13 probe*
14 probe*
*denote chrono-boosted
Now probably before or after queuing up that 14th probe, your gateway is already being built. You're not waiting for any larva at this point, an you can continue to pump out probes and pylons necessary to jump start your economy. You haven't lost any probes to buildings, so they continue to gather minerals. What have you paid? Well, you were required to get a pylon, so that is 100 minerals, and the gateway is another 150. So in order to start pumping out your first army members, you've had to spend only 250 minerals, and you have lost NO workers (and very little work time). With all the extra minerals you are grabbing, you can continue to pump out workers without having to wait for larva.
Let's look at some actual times (please note that this might be slightly off, I'm not a professional). The following will have the following formatting: Supply (x/x) - Action - Time.
Zerg:
7/10 - Drone - 0:01
8/10 - Drone - 0:19
9/10 - Drone - 0:32
9/10 - Overlord - 0:49
10/10 - Drone - 0:58
11/18 - Drone - 1:15
12/18 - Drone - 1:15
13/18 - Drone - 1:24
14/18 - Drone - 1:35
13/18 - S. Pool - 1:55
Spent on Economy: 500
Spent on Technology: 200
Protoss:
7/10 - Probe - 0:01
8/10 - Probe - 0:19
9/10 - Probe - 0:36
9/10 - Pylon - 0:52
10/10 - Probe - 0:58
11/18 - Probe - 1:17
12/18 - Probe - 1:29
13/18 - Probe - 1:41
14/18 - Probe - 1:52
14/18 - Gateway - 1:52
Spent on Economy: 500
Spent on Technology: 150
At the 2:05 mark, the 14th probe comes out of the Nexus. At this time, the Protoss have 125 minerals to spend. At this time, the Zerg have only 75 minerals to spend.
So now what? The Zerg need to get a queen out somewhat soon to be able to spend all the minerals they have on an army. If they start going towards other buildings, that's more drones that need to be made to make up for lost workers. The Protoss however do not need to wait for larva, so they can continue to build up their economy without waiting.
The Zerg is known for being able to recuperate their entire army at the drop of a pin. Absolutely, but you have to remember to continue to inject, and it has to be later in the game. This is completely useless if the opponent overwhelms you with better units while you try to make up for lost drones early in the game.
Just MY 2 minerals...that I can't spend because I'm waiting for larva.
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While i've yet to play against good(platinum) players, the problem is that if you contain the T or P, they can't scout out your base. So what to do? Go for a fake contain.
If the T scans and see's the early baneling nest, he'll know to expect a baneling bust or some kind of threat. He'll go for extra wall in, and decide to macro up his army. While this is great and all, the minerals/gas invested in those said banelings will contain him to one base, instead of optionally expanding to another. With careful overlord placement, you can keep him in one base until he decides to push out.
If he doesn't scan, don't hesitate to show him. Try for that baneling bust. scare him into expecting more. The great thing about getting fast banelings early is the ability to scare. At the very least, destroy a supply depot in order to set him back that extra 100 gold.
As for P, if they don't have enough units to handle a baneling bust, your speedlings will be free to cause hell. AND SCOUT. Since one of the largest problems i have with Z is scouting early, this is a partial solution. If i see those void rays coming, i'll know to double up on queens.
I absolutely love using speedlings and banelings to this effect- while i sacrifice the economy for tech, i force the terran/protoss into a limited ammount of options. If my early scout saw the reactor or tech lab, i can predict what the T is up to, minus creative play. If i see the cybernetics core, i can predict what the P is going to do. With the fake contain, they're FORCED to make an early wall off against you. a group of 15 speedlings and 6 banelings will hardly kill your economy. It might set you back, but the contain grantees your ability to tech and expand undisturbed until a certain point. The result? a 2 base full saturated macro zerg vs a starving 1 base desperate P/T. if their push out fails, they're left with a VERY limited set of options.
Because of this, zerg is essentially free to macro. It's your job to continuously apply 'fake' pressure and scout. While one base is constantly producing drones/injecting, i can use the second hatch in order to make zerglings and inject for more drones. I can opt to go for a 4 queen AA defense, and still make use of their energy to expand my creep tumors. If you have the advantage of being able to double gas early, then do it.
While i'm not a perfect player, i find this sort of strategy helps a lot in terms of 'applying pressure'. Even though it's not real, the terran and protoss player don't know what your doing. They don't know if your rushing brood lords, or going for a hydra-roach army. You can opt to go for a full baneling/speedling 'all in' if your economy is good enough to sustain a 3 zergling/baneling pump. There's tons of variations you can use. Even though the zergling isnt' as strong, it makes up for it by being able to morph into the baneling, which is a ridiculous force to be reckoned with if not protected against.
A Good T will defend against this with hellions, then go for a heavy hellion/thor/tank/marauder build. You can expect this. Knowing this, you can react in a way that puts you in an advantageous situation.
The P is going for a colossus timed push? great! Now we know what he's doing. and he still doesn't know what your up to
Another little trick i like to do: research burrow and burrow banelings at points where you know the opponent will be. This relys on map familiarity. If your early speedlings get decimated by a t/p thats pushing out, you'll be able to see where his army is headed. place banelings somewhere you know they'll have to eventually cross, but isn't a choke. hopefully with a little luck, you'll be able to destroy or damage a part of his army before it even gets to your base.
Trick #2- While he's contained, don't hesitate to use little tricks. Go for that nydus canal. Try that overlord baneling drop. try for a infestor burrow drop. While good players have their base contained, it'll force units away from his main gate, causing an opportunity to attack.
Trick #3- place overlords around his base entirely, so you literally have vision if he tries to move out with air. See that medivac going for a drop? great!. Warp prism? gotcha!. can't sneak anything past me, i have you fully contained. You can kill my overlords with air, but with my creep highway, my hydras should be there rather quickly.
Here's a "MEH" demonstration. As i said, i'm not exactly the best sc2 zerg player. Don't critique me based on my play, or the person i'm playing against. It's merely a demonstration of a zvt game where i implement some parts i discussed. Watch it from the T perspective, and think to yourself- what is the zerg doing?
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5827
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You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know!
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I agree with the initial idea. It doesn't feel like zerg can do anything it could in BW in early game.
And that's disappointing, especially considering I'm a zerg player.
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On May 22 2010 15:52 dehboy wrote:
You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know!
If you did not switch at patch 12, you re a proud Cerebrate, keep up the fight against those imba mfckers :D
The new overseer might be a pain in the ass for the opponents now, though the ultra is weaker than it was befor the "buff"
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workers can gib the infested terran in like 3 seconds it ****ing sucks
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On May 03 2010 06:20 daywiss wrote:
i think baneling if used correctly fills the role of a pressure unit, except againts toss really. i would really like them to be viable vs toss, but with sentry its just too easy to stop.
I disagree. Banelings are DEVASTATING against the Protoss. They are NOT easy to stop. Force field? That's just preventing the inevitable, you're just preventing the banelings from rolling up your ramp and fucking shit up a second more than it was supposed to.
I played one Zerg who opened up Banelings against me, and it completely RAPED me. He had lings out early to pressure and to contain me, and then banelings rolled in and took out all of my units and then he just sent the remaining banelings straight to my worker line.
Banelings are DEADLY. If used correctly in the early game with lings, you can contain the opponent fast and they have the potential to decimate the oponent right off the bat. I don't think people realize how deadly banelings are, especially if you open with them.
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On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
Thank you for this wonderful and informative post. I am going to try this build out a few games and see how well it does for me! A quick question, does this build work just as well on small vs large maps (IE LT vs Incineration Zone?) Thanks!
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This has been a most interesting topic but I feel for Starcraft 2 in terms of the Econ problem that Zerg players like myself have with balancing out Army to Worker ratio is to add 1 more Larva instead of SC 1 and SC 2's 3 Although the queen helps cover the problem by constantly injecting and maintaining the production maintaining between Econ and Army is rather difficult until mid to late game where Zerg suffers significantly due to poor end game. I have been into too many games where I would watch the replays and constantly see myself atleast 15 to 10 workers short compared to everyone else and when I compensate for it next game I don't have a effective army to counter any attack. As for overall in the discussion I think walling in should be less readily available like it is now. Although its a fantastic strategy to control games from being 2 min games its something Zerg just cant do and I feel pressured into having no choice but to harass or lose the game and cause atleast 1 Minute of econ shut down early game every single game. I think Blizzard is trying out new things for the zerg but taking hydras out of tier one and moving burrow to tier 2 makes me also pressured into quick teching and FE after a probably assured failed harass since if they properly walled or if my harass ended before it could do damage I wont last meta game.
The way it feels is that Zerg is FORCED to do things a certain way which I think is what the OP wanted to refer to is Why should I feel FORCED into playing like this and that as my only viable options while Terran and Protoss can branch out easily and effectively while maintaining two highly effective strategies at any given time.
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I really think roaches and hydras needed to be switched. Hydra T1 and Roach T2. Of course this would require a lot of stat adjusting and balancing work but with the way it is right now, I find myself building Roach Warren AFTER I build the Hydra Den because if you commit to roaches early you will just get destroyed by the inevitable void rays/mutas/banshees.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 23:28 BluFenix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
Thank you for this wonderful and informative post. I am going to try this build out a few games and see how well it does for me! A quick question, does this build work just as well on small vs large maps (IE LT vs Incineration Zone?) Thanks!
As a person who got rolled over by this build in LT, I can attest to say that it works on both small and large maps.
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Yeah, I agree, and even with the threat of Banelings, unless you want to go for a basically low-eco all-in because if a BBust fails then you're out of the game. Banelings I feel aren't really useful unless your opponent has been really concentrating on Marines or more Melee units. Other units make short work of Banelings. Err, well I guess with a large army they could tank the damage but still, until Lair Tech zerg has to always just like be a freaking turtle. At least in Starcraft Brood War, you could threaten Terran with runby's and Protoss with the same thing. Now that doesn't mean crap.
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On May 22 2010 16:03 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 15:52 dehboy wrote:
You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know! If you did not switch at patch 12, you re a proud Cerebrate, keep up the fight against those imba mfckers :D The new overseer might be a pain in the ass for the opponents now, though the ultra is weaker than it was befor the "buff"
Am I weird, because I actually switched TO ZERG after Patch 12 and 13 lol.
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On May 23 2010 04:05 kineSiS- wrote:
Am I weird, because I actually switched TO ZERG after Patch 12 and 13 lol.
Yes, you are.
Hopefully the new overseer will help a bit, but so far I haven't been able to do a whole lot with it. Lone infested terrans suuuuuuuuck as harassment. I think they should either greatly buff the infested terran himself or just make it a cheaper spell.
Corruption however is fun to use.
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Corruption is your weapon of choice vs later timing attacks.
Say you're Protoss and you know that there's an overseer nearby. Will you be able to spend that chrono boost effectively?
Same with terran because of the gigantic amount of upgrades they need. What happens if that Siege Mode doesn't finish on time? Or the concussive shells, when you see a baneling wave moving towards you?
You don't need to harass that much as Zerg. Your economy and map awareness are already better than T's or P's. All you have to deal with is with the effectiveness of their units, and their harass.
I find it weird that they're still trying to put infested terrans in the game, though. The very concept of it is a bad one. I wonder if they'll put that LoS blocker spell back into the game somehow in one of the expansions.
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EPT
