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It seems to me that zerg lacks any means to really apply any pressure in the early game to terran or protoss opponents. Maybe I am crazy, but it seems like every single game I play as zerg, I feel forced into a macro heavy FE build of some kind to be able to stay competitive into the midgame. I love playing zerg, but it gets tiring doing the same FE builds every game, and then trying to scout/guess what kind of cheesy harassment my opponent will be doing. Whether it be hellions and banshees, hellion/marauder, thor drops, reaper rushes, void rays, pheonix, etc. It just feels as if Zerg poses no threat in the early game other than the threat of building larva and gaining momentum. There is simply no variety, and no means to apply pressure until tier 2. No tricks in the bag so to speak AFAIK.
I started to ask myself whether or not zerg 1 base play is even viable in a non-all-in manner. So far I haven't been able to find any 1 base builds that aren't all-in which allow you apply pressure, or do some kind of successful timing push or harassment that damages your opponents economy.
Why is this?
I think it boils down to a few primary reasons.
1) Wall in's and force field.
In the case of Terran players, defending all early zerg agression is as simple as making a baneling proof wall in and building some units. It's nearly impossible for zerglings, banelings, or roaches, to effectively breach a well-constructed terran base.
In the case of Protoss players, simple sim-city combined with force field makes a protoss ramp impossible to attack. If a zerg player attempts to break a protoss choke, its basically giving protoss a donation of half of your units. Considering forcefields are invincible and sentries spawn with enough energy to cast its simply impossible to break a protoss choke point. I have had limited success with a double gas steal into roach rush build, however its hardly viable as a non-all-in strategy. It's simply not worthwhile to do any sort of 1 base aggression against protoss due to forcefield hard countering all of zergs tier 1 units.
These factors contribute to the theme of terran and protoss players having the freedom to do whatever build they like, whether it be a timing attack, high tech harassment, or fast expanding themselves. Zerg players on the other hand are forced into a heavy macro playstyle which focuses on defending with as little spending as possible and then transitioning into a heavy tier 2 unit composition. I really think that this stifles any creativity that we may see from zerg players.
2) Zerg tier 1 unit choices.
Zerg's tier 1 unit choices simply pose no threat to terran or protoss forces. Protoss and terran opponents who have fast expanded can make use of the planetary fortress, forcefield, or simply sim-city to completely negate all threat of zerg attack.
The zergling, while mobile and adept at scouting and harassment as well as killing units on open ground, is completely useless without a surround, and is even worse against zealots than in starcraft one. (There was a thread doing the numbers earlier in the beta).
The baneling, which typically only sees use against MMM or zealot heavy builds, is a highly situational unit, whos cost makes it ineffective at destroying high HP buildings such as gateways and barracks. While this unit poses a huge threat to groups of tier 1 units, its nothing that the armored marauder or stalker cannot handle, and also greatly suffers from forcefield usage.
The roach, possibly the only hope of zerg applying early aggression, was once a unit that people legitimately feared. Good players could still defend a roach rush without too much trouble, and then the roach got nerfed even further, making it essentially a zealot with 3 range that receives insane damage from anti-armor units. With burrow 100/100 at tier 2, and the regen being reduced, its not even nearly as threatening in the midgame either.
With these being the only early options, it really feels as if zerg players have absolutely no reason not to commit to a macro intensive fast expand build regardless of what their opponent is doing. Once tier 2 rolls around, the hydralisk, infestor, mutalisk, nydus worm, ventral sacks, tunneling claws etc. unlock a myriad of possibilities for zerg, but again, this tech does not seem overly threatening unless its coming from a 2 base 4 gas economy.
I think this problem primarily stems from the zerg having no real ranged tier 1 unit, and the roach being nerfed to the point where it isn't threatening in small numbers. In the alpha stages of this game blizzard stated that there was a role conflict between the ultralisk and roach (both being high hp tank units) and as a result made the roach tier 1. This of course solved absolutely nothing but denying zerg a ranged support unit at tier 1 and forcing zerg players into the aforementioned play style. I really feel that the hydra should have been a less potent tier 1 support unit, but this far into the beta I'm obviously not expecting that to change any time soon.
What do you think? Do you agree that zerg is pigeon-holed? Do you think this is a problem for the game as far as diversity of play and spectator value are concerned? Do you think gameplay will evolve to a point where this is no longer the case? In which ways do you think zerg can apply threat in the early game?
Note: I originally posted this in the SC2 forum for discussion, but apparently it doesn't fit the requirements and was considered a "balance discussion without enough supporting evidence". I did not intend this to be a balance discussion as much as a gameplay discussion, nor do I understand how it doesn't meet the SC2 forum requirements. I don't question the admin team (the discussion went downhill after page 3 anyways), but It seems it would be better suited for a discussion thread in the strategy forum anyways no? I really do feel that this is an important gameplay issue to discuss, and I'm sure many top zerg players feel the same way.
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i think baneling if used correctly fills the role of a pressure unit, except againts toss really. i would really like them to be viable vs toss, but with sentry its just too easy to stop.
i dont think there is any way to pressure toss early(other than like 10 or less pool), you have to play a macro game, survive their cheese, and hold off any early/mid game pushes, and then mid game you can finally be on even footing. only option for harass is muta, but againts most timing pushes you cant save the gas needed until you have successfully held and saturated your second base.
againts t, i think baneling is viable for pressure, even if it just forces them to build a stronger choke. its easy to scout a choke before you are committed and switch your build to macro or defensive play depending on the circumstances. but at that point, yea theres no way to effectively harrass, and you will most likely be a little behind and put on the defensive.
overall(excluding zvz) i would like to be more agressive with zerg, but i end up having to play really defensively most of the time and maximize drone production while hoping i have enough to stop a push.
before roach was nerfed, i almost always went roach pressure, now i hardly ever build roaches until after i get hydra or muta out. but i think thats probably a good thing, because mass roaches was worse for gameplay than what we have now, imo.
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Banelings are very good at taking out pylons. Zerg dose have less options but most of their units are generalists and are able to fit many roles. banelings take a bit of practice to use effectively but are great at breaking wall ins of every kind. They are also cheap and easily accessible because they morph from lings. They are suicide units so you have to justify the cost of using them by taking out key or expensive structures or alot of units.
Zerg T1 feels more like an early mapcontrol froce. and as far as forcefield is conscerned a sentry at full energy can only use 4 forcefields and they cost 100 gas so thats one less immortal the Toss has for every sentry.
Zerg shouldnt spent too much time in the early game however as once they reach lair tech they have alot more options. Zerg is a race you have to get creative with. They are more focused on how you use your units rather than what units you make.
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i read this on a live-feed chat once and it stuck in my mind:
the focus of each race:
Terran: adaptability
Zerg: numbers
Protoss: late game power
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Eh, peckham, that might look good on paper (or a monitor =P) but each race is much more than those three things you listed.
Zergs are very, very good at switching builds/strategies and have Brood Lords (which demolish if used correctly/the opponent doesn't counter/opponent messes up etc.
Terrans are capable of creating mass armies extremely quickly with the reactor and have very powerful units (almost "hero" units according to some people haha)
Protoss can mass units extremely quickly with enough warp gates, and can transition fairly quickly if need be, though they are decidedly slow at adapting into higher tier units (however, the tier 1/1.5 units can be created quickly and collectively can fight off most other strategies).
If I'm wrong, tell me so. roflcopter
Um, on topic: this might be because I'm just a lowly Copper toss (I played my ranking matches before I knew anything >~< ), but I feel that fast zerglings whenever I fail to create units quickly enough will utterly destroy me. If I'm not paying attention or fail to get that sentry/enough zealots out early enough, a bunch of zerglings will just come in and set me back for essentially the rest of the game. Zergs can create a bunch of units, scout a build, adapt to it extremely quickly, and send more units out that are effective against a build. Even if they can't scout it, zergs are still capable of transitioning quickly and efficiently if they cannot manage to contain an opponent. The same can be said of the other races in terms of the fact that you will not always be able to make your opponent fear the threat of some giant build designed to bust you. All races do have that fear factor of whether they'll go for an all-in build.
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You seem to be missing the fact that if Protoss or Terran do these one base builds they are banking on doing serious damage. If they don't they have essentially lost the game. The "economic snowball effect" for Zerg is superior to the other races because of their ability to spawn so many drones so quickly. There's a point where the other races cannot catch up and must resort to other means to win. The other races are under incredible "pressure" to keep up. You may not realize this if you only play Zerg. Zerg ARE a huge threat early game!
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Pick any of your replays, and then look at the unit count. Watch as you out drone your opponents VERY quickly. This results in a HUGE income advantage as zerg have VERY cheap units. T and P HAVE to try and do something to slow down your huge macro advantage or they will just die.
Just try and play a game as T or P v Z, and just let the Z 15/15/15 macro... then see how well you fare mid game... not so well.
Next, try and play as Z on 1 base v T or P. Guess what happens, you end up larva blocked. Hatches are your production buildings, a hatch is more like a gateway or barracks IMHO than a nexus or CC.
A FE for zerg, is more like getting a 2nd early rax or gateway. They let you put out more units, and just so happen let you pull up a second base.
Not to mention, Zerg is supposed to creep across the map, destroying your opponents dreams has he watches you take all the bases and out macro him. Toss and Terran, even in the Single player and in the Lore are just trying to fight Zerg off before they get a foot hold on any planet. Play the game the same way. T and P are trying to keep you from getting your macro machine up, once you do its GG.
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I completely agree with the OP.
As a relatively unbiased terran and zerg player, I think it's bullshit how easily terran can wall off and tech to something nice and fancy. Mass rines can hold off quite well while banshees are being rushed into your base.
Zerg can't wall without a ton of units that can die, and there's nothing zerg can tech to to produce 2 units and do deadly damage the way a couple reapers, banshees, vikings, hellions, DTs, void rays can.
I'm all for race diversity but this is some bullshit. I'm never worried about the zerg player in my game because its a piece of cake to scout them constantly. Terran? No such luck.
I find zerg is far too dependent on hydras for their anti air and good luck surviving if you don't have a den or a lair down (maybe you expod?) by the time banshees roll in.
I feel like terran can so easily adapt to the opponent, especially when their first unit can hit air. This means there is never an "oh shit, he got XYZ" unit as terran. Slap a tech lab on a starport and you've got everything covered if the need arises, even detection. Zerg may benefit from increased production (if you've got the minerals) but I feel that the lack of dual unit production buildings is some bullshit. If a hydra den allowed you to get hydras and lurkers, that would be very interesting (the way spire opens corruptors and mutas). But currently, early to mid game is a constant struggle to make sure you don't get caught on the wrong foot.
No one is arguing that zerg is too weak or too strong, but I feel that zerg is pidgeon holed and has a whole other reactionary dynamic than the other races because there is not a single tactical unit they can tech to do terrible terrible damage. Thus, you're stuck at T1 for early to mid game and your only incentive to reach T2 is to get an army of mutas (an army, because 2 aint shit) or to get your T2 GtA hydra.
I too have no faith in Blizzard's ability to correct this situation before their first expansion. Zerg isn't weak, but you are forced to cover so many areas in early-mid game until you can comfortably produce most of your units that it is daunting and repetitive to play as Z. As Terran, I feel like the world is my oyster and I can choose from a 100 different strategies to pressure my opponent. As zerg, I'm busy making sure I don't get rolled by any of those 100 strategies so that once I can have some hydras and infestors out, we may have a fair fight.
My 2 minerals.
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Ever tried blocking your ramp with a hatchery?
The downside is, you don't get the additional resources like if you had build it down the ramp.
The upside is, you don't need a lot of units to defend, so you can concentrate on drones and queens (from two hatches) and tech.
Allows you to go lair extremely fast, and once lair is done, you can very quickly get the lair upgrades in the two hatches and expand multiple times from there.
Might need some tinkering to get the timings right. But a blocked ramp also means, you are more free to harass with your units. Or opt not to harass at all, since you pump drones faster anyway, you wont get far behind.
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I'm new to beta. 90 games played (only as zerg, zerg ftw!). Only Bronze. But still I agree with OP and Vexx.
I realize the reason for me not being higher is not because of balance but because I suck.So this is not the reason I'm posting. I'm posting cause I do think zerg has to play a certain way all the time and our options are always based on the opponent.
I would like to elaborate on what focus on each race is as someone typed above. As a Zerg player this is how it feels like
Protoss: Strong counters and utility.
Terran: Freedom to choose tech, playstyle and harass.
Zerg: Adaptability.
Playing as Zerg I feel like its my job to know what my opponent is doing and counter what he brings to me. I need to balance drone production with army and get a big enough army at the right time not negelecting economy at the same time. Scouting is so important for Zerg. Mor for Z then for P and T early game I believe in ZvP and ZvT match ups. If you do not build the proper units you will die to T and P.
I mean a P player can pretty much before the game decide I'm going 1 gate or 2 gate or 3 gate. As zerg you gotta respond to whatever they build. And also you need scout of mid game void, immortals or whatever. Same with terran, what harass are they going, is he expo, is he not, MMM, etc. It feels like the games I play is pretty much about to adapt to whatever timing push T or P has decided to do. If I survive it I win, if not I loose, most often. Everytime its Z that has to adapt to how P or T wanna play, they control the early game and shape the mid game by doing so.
Maybe this is just cause I suck and can't claim the initiative initally. But I feel this way even facing ppl that play much worse then me, its just that the timing push is laughable and then I win.
Its also especially obvious when you finally play a ZvZ now you can actually be the one putting pressure. Even though ZvZ matches brings a pretty booring early game revolving mostly around when you put up your pool. But atleast you can get the initiative and pressure and that feels nice.
If this is the way its meant to be thats ok. Be it lore whatever. But I'd still like to have a few more options early game independent of what my opponent is doing
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As Zergs we have to get over the fact Dark Swarm was stolen and given to terran and that we where ever allowed to contain/defend with lurkers or that plague was twisted along with muta micro getting cut and ultras being virtually pointless.
Now we are over that we have to evolve and think more creatively with how to use:-
blings
burrowed blings (vulture mine style but manually)
corruption+muta harass
fungal spams
neural attack/defence
drops
nydus
ultra cleave
fast army tech switches
creep tumor spams
We feel we have to go through the motions tier 1 and we pretty much do as there is only so much ling/bling/slow roach can do and embrace its limited at that tier and once we get into lair then our game starts.
I feel we have a tendency to stop using so many tactics at tier 2 because things are so basic at tier 1. We should just view tier 1 as the flowchart to get to tier 2.
I saw a ling into infestor then roach hydra completely turn a game the other day on Goatropes awesome stream as well as good burrowed blings melt a mmm ball without the raven detection scare a terran so badly.
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i 8 pool alot with zerg against toss and terran, as long as u dont invest too much in lings and stick at 6-8 and keep them alive it can work out pretty well.
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On May 03 2010 07:27 Insanious wrote:
Pick any of your replays, and then look at the unit count. Watch as you out drone your opponents VERY quickly. This results in a HUGE income advantage as zerg have VERY cheap units. T and P HAVE to try and do something to slow down your huge macro advantage or they will just die.
Just try and play a game as T or P v Z, and just let the Z 15/15/15 macro... then see how well you fare mid game... not so well.
Next, try and play as Z on 1 base v T or P. Guess what happens, you end up larva blocked. Hatches are your production buildings, a hatch is more like a gateway or barracks IMHO than a nexus or CC.
A FE for zerg, is more like getting a 2nd early rax or gateway. They let you put out more units, and just so happen let you pull up a second base.
Not to mention, Zerg is supposed to creep across the map, destroying your opponents dreams has he watches you take all the bases and out macro him. Toss and Terran, even in the Single player and in the Lore are just trying to fight Zerg off before they get a foot hold on any planet. Play the game the same way. T and P are trying to keep you from getting your macro machine up, once you do its GG.
T is never far behind a zerg FE in econ with MULES.
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I play zerg, and honestly I haven't experience any of the above problems. Disclaimer: I'm only in bronze 2v2 with ~1400 score so maybe I just haven't experience higher levels of play.
If they wall in, you have map control, expand.
Yes, voids and banshees do come out early, but that can be dealt with by dropping down a few spore colonies to hold off air until you get enough gas to mass hydras/mutas.
You have options to get in the base; air, drops, nedus. Or just deny your opponents of expansions and starve them & gg.
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On May 03 2010 09:47 febreze wrote:
I play zerg, and honestly I haven't experience any of the above problems. Disclaimer: I'm only in bronze 2v2 with ~1400 score so maybe I just haven't experience higher levels of play.
If they wall in, you have map control, expand.
This is stupid advice for reasons covered in the thread already. A SC2 wall is a one team door, not a wall.
You can start talking about map control once you have an army that controls the map and contains your opponent. Fast expanding is an investment (an expense) that does not pay for itself for a few minutes. Until the point where the expansion is making profit, you are behind one base play and if they attack during that period of time, you will lose.
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I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
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On May 03 2010 06:52 peckham33 wrote:
i read this on a live-feed chat once and it stuck in my mind:
Protoss: late game power
lol
@OP
You'd be amazed at how much pressure speedlings apply to toss. IF you're actually not good enough to monitor my sentry energy and try to brute force your way in (which is very possible if i'm not spamming sentries, which more often, I am not) you will at least force me to stare at my ramp a lot and screw up my macro. You'll also contain me from leaving my base, and if you back off, i'll still have to play it safe because i don't want to loose expensive units to flanking lings.
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zerg is basically a sitting duck until lair tech, zerglings suck, speedlings take forever to upgrade, banelings cant take down proper wall ins, and roaches are slow as hell while the enemy run circles around them
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I think the problem with Zerg early game is that Zerglings pose little to no threat in SC2 compared to SC1. Workers can hold off zerglings off a lot better with the auto surround and better worker AI, plus Zealots annihilate them even more than in SC1.
I wouldn't mind seeing Zerglings being a little more potent, even if it made them more expensive or something.
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The real problem is Zerg really cannot afford to delay Lair much at all. Their complete lack of AA at t1 except for the queen or investing in evo/spores early is just such a ball buster.
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The problem with Zerg early game is the fact that there is none. There's a lot of pressure to get to T2 to avoid air harass (ie ZvT).
If Hydras were T1 and roaches were T2 then early game aggression would be a bit easier.
It's pretty hard to play with weak units (zerglings), units that die after they do damage (banelings) and GtG tanks (roaches) that move extremely slow relative to T and P units.
And hey maybe lurkers could come back into T2 to avoid the bitching from some of the people about Zerg :p
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If an opponent DOESN'T wall v Z, then speedlings win games. But since everyone walls in...
I find that people fear the 6/8 pool rushes more then me as a zerg fear being rushed. A 10 pool shut down any sort of cheese anyone can throw at me besides cannon / bunker rushing me... but a scouting overlord fixes that problem.
Really... I don't see the need for early aggression. As zerg i see my overwhelming maco potential and total map control for most of the game being an early form of agression. T and P have NO map control v zerg once speedlings come out, and they fear the Zerg Macro Machine. Those things put pressure on the T and P.
If you say do 10 min NR with T, P, and Z... the Z will win hands down, theres just nothing that can be done vs the macro that a Z can put out... I mean really just time your self in practice games. Sure T and P can tech pretty far, but if you know you wont be attacked, in 10 mins when you have 3 base and are getting your broodlords up well...
Zerg have psychological early agression and do not need units like reapers to do physical early aggression.
Does T and P want to waste mining time moving their scvs/ probes to their choke to wall? No. Does this hurt their already smaller economy? Yes.
Does the T and P want to do early timing pushes? No. But do they have to? Yes, they need to shut down the Zerg macro machine.
Does the Z need to do anything but play standard to win? Yes.
Do T and P need to play standard to beat Z? No, usually most plays v Z are all ins, where if it fails you are too far behind economically to ever catch up...
Zerg are mind ninjas... where T and P cannot get in to see whats going on, you come out of no where with 50 hydras and just tear their puny armies up.
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I tried going an 8 pool as Zerg versus Protoss and it works surprisingly well. Basically, your 8 lings get to the Toss base before he has his first Zealot out (unless he sends a super early scout).
Then you try and knock out his plyon, forcing him to pull probes off the line. The only response that the Protoss has is to go 2 gate at this point. Meanwhile, you transition to roaches at around 18 supply and attack again with about 6 roaches. If you did a good job harrasing with the first 8 lings, the cybercore should be delayed enough where it will be a GG. If your roach push fails, you tech to Lair and scout to see if you can expand.
Its not a 100% perfect but it does allow you to put early game pressure and put the Toss out of his Zone.
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On May 03 2010 11:31 Vexx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 09:47 febreze wrote:
I play zerg, and honestly I haven't experience any of the above problems. Disclaimer: I'm only in bronze 2v2 with ~1400 score so maybe I just haven't experience higher levels of play.
If they wall in, you have map control, expand.
This is stupid advice for reasons covered in the thread already. A SC2 wall is a one team door, not a wall. You can start talking about map control once you have an army that controls the map and contains your opponent. Fast expanding is an investment (an expense) that does not pay for itself for a few minutes. Until the point where the expansion is making profit, you are behind one base play and if they attack during that period of time, you will lose.
Fine, I concede.
However, I think you would agree the game would be pretty boring if every game could be won by massing tier 1 units. Zerg are still on even footing in the race to tier 2, and poor walls still cost games.
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Speaking of zerg mines, it might be kinda cool if they allow blings to burrow but they auto-unburrow when enemy units are near. Maybe that's imba though.
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Send a message to Bliz, everyone who plays Z should switch to P until they address the staleness of the race. There are already a lot of Ps in the game... a lot.
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I'm a silver zerg only player.
Ling speed takes forever to finish, they should decrease the time needed for the upgrade. It helps in playing mind games at the ramps and also stopping timing pushes.
There's nothing I can do after they wall in, and if I don't sneak in a ling or use my overlord to peek inside, I HAVE TO tech to lair ASAP in fear of air attacks which i think is complete BS.
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boycott zerg? good luck there. maybe you will get something before the end of the patch notes to the real game.
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@ those that say Zerg is stale, we are only a few months into Beta... the game is far from being explored. People barely uses corrupters let alone their ability, people don't use burrow, people don't use ultras, people don't use infested terran, etc...
there are a lot of things that we haven't found the correct use for yet... people thought that pheonix's sucked and were useless... now look people are massing them like crazy because of Nony.
Zerg, Terran, and Protoss are far from being fully explored.
I mean seriously, Most people in the NA and EU server don't use Spine crawlers, while in Asia spine crawlers are used like MAD.
There are a lot of things people don't use yet, or don't use to the fullest... give it some time, there is a lot of exploring left to do.
Experiment with corrupter harass (shut down his production buildings for 30s = awesome abilitiy, use it more... keep him from getting those colossi)
Experiment with burrow (set up ambushes / start using burrowed roaches again)
Experiment with different builds. Anyone tried to do a one base to broodlords... just test things out come on, the game isnt stale yet... people just havent tried yet.
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This thread is so true. I hate not being able to attack in the early game unless I go quick pool. Terran and Protoss walling in forces the player to macro up.
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I agree. And really it all comes down to the poor AA we have at T1 imo. We're forced to get a relatively fast lair to not auto-lose to air harass, and before lair we don't even have the tools to scout fast air harass, so we have to do it blindly. The only time going for early army is acceptable is to counter early aggression such as a very aggressive 2 gate, its never acceptable to stay T1 against a eco or teching opponent.
Buffing spore crawler's range by 1 would help ALOT. Currently the only time I use spore crawlers is against mutalisks because of their short-range. Banshee's and void rays can always find places to attack easily unless you have like 5 spores...
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If you want to win early why not do a one base all in roach rush?
Personally I like the 15 pool 16 hatch build the best out of any build in starcraft 2, I feel like that vs T and P, especially on the garbage level Im at, if I survive the first push I win. My economy literally EXPLODES, which is the reason they have to do those pushes in the first place right? I realize that if your idea of a fun game is constant non stop action from the beginning that kind of sucks.
I think it would be super sweet if 3 zerglings could take a zealot though.
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This doesnt really bother me too much as I really prefer macro-orientated games over cheesefests. However, when I do try to apply pressure it seems the only thing I am able to accomplish is prevented my opponent from applying pressure as well. It's difficult to get anything besides that done.
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Singapore147 Posts
speedlings = win. as protoss all you need is one zealot out of position on your ramp and if the lings get to the probes you can quit right there and then. zerg get full map control practically from the moment the first 4 lings come out... unless your opponent went some kind of cheese. how is that now aggression?
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I do agree that zerglings and banelings are a bit too weak atm, even with their diminished HP, Zealots take on far more zerglings than they used to, and even with speed they can't properly chase running units, its like you NEED Adrenal Glands to even be able to attack moving targets with them, an upgrade that requires Hive, and provides little other benefit.
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On May 03 2010 18:47 Catch]22 wrote:
I do agree that zerglings and banelings are a bit too weak atm, even with their diminished HP, Zealots take on far more zerglings than they used to, and even with speed they can't properly chase running units, its like you NEED Adrenal Glands to even be able to attack moving targets with them, an upgrade that requires Hive, and provides little other benefit.
Zerglings and banelings are the most tactical units in the Zerg arsenal. Would you buff their damage if it meant increasing build time and decreasing speed? I wouldn't. If you need to beat a lot of zealots build roaches.
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i know i'm pretty much a lower grade player, but i did manage to "outsmart" a protoss using forcefield to block the ramp, i tried to get in with lings fist then later bane+ling, but instead of going a all or nothing charge i went close enough for the forcefield to pop, retreat wait for it to go out close in again. and suddenly the shield didnt come and i went all in, got up the ramp and took out a few lots with the banelings and the sentries got surrounded right after by many lings. basicly the taunting for shield lost me maybe 4 lings, easily cost effective to drain as much energy from sentries witch would force him to build more of them.
ofc the player got sligthly bm and went "how can toss defend against that" "fu" then left. wouldn't waiting for the lings to get abit up the ramp then splitting the army with a forcefield int he middle of the gang sort of stop this lure totaly though? zealots can kill all the trapped lings right?
edit: i guess this goes under the psychological terror mentioned above 
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On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
Was gonna try this today. Ended up in 5 ZvZ in a row. And one against protoss. He went two gate and I owned him, even with 2 sentries trying to block his ramp. although I can't help to think it was one of the worst toss players I faced in a long time. Still I felt confident during the game. Thanks. I will look into this more later today and hope it continues to provide
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On May 03 2010 13:37 lotri wrote:
Speaking of zerg mines, it might be kinda cool if they allow blings to burrow but they auto-unburrow when enemy units are near. Maybe that's imba though.
They already do; just set unburrow to autocast.
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I can suggest a few things for you：
10 pool vs P (use first 6 lings to kill first zealot, harass mineral lines). 20 Roach 19 Gas ~22-23 Expand
Midgame harrass by researching burrow and roach burrow movement. Terran is almost impossible to harrass but I would much rather play against a 1 base T than against a siege expanding T. Smart Ts expand, bad Ts stay 1 base.
Honestly, I would much rather focus on macro than harrass. Harass wouldn't win you games against good players.
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This post was saying what I have been thinking for so long.
This has been such a problem for me. I have been trying for the last week even to be more aggressive with zerg and its so hard to be forceful because we don't have the drones to keep the army count as high. Toss can 1 base 4 gate 1 robo and crush us lots of times, even with mass hydra which is pretty good vs 4g1r.
What always gets me is the other races have SO many options while zerg have one really clear option. Get FE, macro, and build just enough to hold off first push. If first push does not come before 9 mins, build an army, push out and take another expo, begin macro again. Assume map control, contain and suffocate the econ.
I have been playing random, and when I get T v Z I just LOLOLOL. Reaper rush to hellion to viking/banshee to thor/seige drops finished with an MMM/Hellion/Thor is just so strong if pulled off right. Reapers come out around the time the queen is out or a little before, kill 3-5 drones, hellion keep the expo at bay and force roach/spine crawlers. Vikings stop map vision and snip OLs while banshees make quick work of drones. Top it all off with mech drops and then a MMM push. What is zerg to do?
Toss can just 1 base stalker/colo and lolroflstomp 80% of zerg players. Only muta/infester/corrupt can stop the colo, and if you DONT have that tech, you lose.
I think zerg need army diversity because right now, this mass hydra vs all strat is not only boring but limiting to the zerg army. ZvZ is just who makes what unit before the other.
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First post on TL. Top 20 silver player, not really been much into Starcraft till now but loving the beta. My skills are developing but my micro/macro still needs some significant work.
I play zerg almost exclusively, and I've been thinking a lot about this issue.
I think the real issue is one of initiative. Zerg are far too often forced to react as the other player dictates the course of the game, at least initially, by walling and teching to the units/strategy of their choice. Once this happens as Zerg you are forced to either sacrifice a 100 mineral overlord which moves painfully slow just to get a vague sense of what they are doing or you need to guess and tech lair asap. All this while making sure you stay at LEAST 1 hatch ahead of them.
From my very limited experience, 6/8 pool seems one of the very few ways to apply early pressure. Once they've walled forget it. Part of my frustration stems from underdeveloped micro skills. That's a skill issue. But I do feel at times that drones/scv/probes are a little too powerful vs lings.
Going on, once they've walled, unless you decide to simply respond to their build (which might be your best bet anyway) I feel like the only option to regain initiative is to bling/sling bust which is actually an all in move anyway. Not to mention that unless the person is retarded, blings have a hard time busting a good wall.
What I would like to see is a very slight buff to lings hp or something. Maybe a slight nerf to worker damage would be better. At the end of the day, i actually love zerg play style. If I've actually done a good job scouting, its actually pretty simple to counter whatever they are throwing at you, especially if they are expecting to take you off guard. Once their all in as lolfailed, you have the initiative again.
All in all, I just wish there were slightly more options for capturing the initiative early on beyond 6/8pool rush. But you can't deny that the very fact that people wall almost ALWAYs vs zerg is testament to the threat posed by an unchecked zerg force.
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All in all, I just wish there were slightly more options for capturing the initiative early on beyond 6/8pool rush. But you can't deny that the very fact that people wall almost ALWAYs vs zerg is testament to the threat posed by an unchecked zerg force.
I dont think that ppl actually wall in because they are afraid of zerg so much.
I think players wall in, because it basically costs them nothing at all, and is incredibly effective.
Think of it like this: I am not very afraid of a proxy gateway rush, and there are other ways to deal with it. But if building my spawning pool touching my hatchery made me completely immune to it... Then why the hell would I not do that?
PPl dont wall in because they are scared of what could happen, they wall in because it costs them next to nothing, and it stops all early agression.
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I think Zerg early game pressure is summed up pretty well by the poster. Early agression is very easily dealt with by walling off the choke. Unless theres a back door with breakable rocks the early game is very limited for zerg. Banelings are very risky and more of an all in build so far. The fact you need to make an entirely separate building delays the banelings alot. Whats worse is if after the bust there are hellions or a bunker then most likely this is a loss.
That leaves FE, or tech . I've yet to find a consistant one hatch tech build. Wihtout lurkers its pretty un feasible to one hatch tech; unless you like looking like road kill. One Hatch mutas can be negated incredibly easily. So I come up with same conclusion , play style is pretty restricted to some kind of macro/fe build for Z at this time.
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It's a bit of an issue and it limits zergs play style a lot early on.
Base defence:
Protoss: Can block their choke ,can toss some cannons or simply use a sentry.
Just the fact that they can forcefield the ramp right after some units enter pushing half your army out makes it a risk alone.
Terran: Walls in pretty easy and a few Marauders behind the wall rape roaches.
Zerg: spine crawlers work but they don't block chokes + they are expensive early game considering they cost larva/drone.
Basically Toss and Terran negate the risk vs reward by going heavy eco/teching early on.
AA: Zerg has no good AA tech 1 units which forces a zerg to tech up with in a certain time other wise you lose vs void rays or banshees.
Tier 1 units: Roach/baneling/Zergling
Both Protoss and Terran counter zergs tier 1 units quite well this allows both of them to pressure the zerg player while still being able to keep their choke blocked.
Actually it allows them to win the match if the zerg player didn't infested enough resources in an army which needs to be equal if not bigger to counter.
Even if they mess up and you beat their force you cant pass their base, if you hang in front of their base you will get outnumbers and will be forced to move back.
Harassment: Zerg can't do this protoss/terran can.
Aside from zergs balance mid/end game early game zerg is very vulnerable which is al right.
But the other two races don't share the risk vs reward.
Partly because of AA and partly because it is to easy to counter zerg duo to ranged units early game.
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Some of these early game strats n variations sound very interesting for Z... I'm gonna try a few once I get home.
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Yeah, I find that zerg cannot effectively apply early pressure to me as toss unless I screw up. First, I always wall off my choke leaving a 1 zealot gap. This small step solves most potential problems by itself. Sentries and forcefield solve most of the rest. If the zerg is planning some 1-base rush (roaches, speedlings, or baneling bust), I almost always see it coming with active probe scouting. This gives me ample time to throw up a cannon or two (I build forge right after core in all my PvZ's), which combined with the wall-in and sentries, will shut down any 1-base zerg rush. I only lose to zerg rushes if I forget to leave my zealots on hold position, allowing zerglings to run into my base, or if I'm not paying attention and allow banelings to bust my choke. Again, it's purely my fault when that happens.
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On May 05 2010 03:23 xDaunt wrote:
Yeah, I find that zerg cannot effectively apply early pressure to me as toss unless I screw up. First, I always wall off my choke leaving a 1 zealot gap. This small step solves most potential problems by itself. Sentries and forcefield solve most of the rest. If the zerg is planning some 1-base rush (roaches, speedlings, or baneling bust), I almost always see it coming with active probe scouting. This gives me ample time to throw up a cannon or two (I build forge right after core in all my PvZ's), which combined with the wall-in and sentries, will shut down any 1-base zerg rush. I only lose to zerg rushes if I forget to leave my zealots on hold position, allowing zerglings to run into my base, or if I'm not paying attention and allow banelings to bust my choke. Again, it's purely my fault when that happens.
If he's allowing you to actively scout with probes beyond the initial probe, you're playing a pretty bad zerg TBH. Most plat zerg i've encountered will keep a half dozen lings on probe duty near my ramp. While I can push out to scare them off, it forces me to file in and out of my tiny choke point and really opens me up to either letting more lings in (if he went heavy on speedlings), or just keeping my attention early on, which is a pain in itself.
I've also played a few crafty zerg who like to leave a bait overlord just in sight so i run out to snipe it. He'll surround as many of my sentries as he can and run off with few losses. Very annoying, because if i ignore the overlord, he'll probably do a fly-by of my base once he's got movement speed.
I think Z really under-estimate containment as opposed to early pressure that's intended to kill the opponent. Containment really plays to Z's strength a lot more. They're a brutal macro machine if they get the chance to be, and they've got a much faster rate of tech switching. Just keep the enemy starved for scouting info with some lings and make yourself aware of what's going on with ovie scouting.
Chances are pretty good the toss will be going all-in from gateways anyhow, so that makes your offensive pressure kinda pointless. You're far better off using his travel time to your advantage and letting static D and superior positioning give you an edge while he's desperately trying to expo or follow-up with another attack.
P's only way around this is being really annoying early on, zealot pressure on any FE, use phoenix or VR to make him pay attention to his overlords, and try to get an obs, phoenix scout, or hallucinated scout into his base asap so you know what you'll need to get in there and cause some econ damage as soon as possible. Leaving the zerg alone isn't an option. If you let him be agreessive and take the map, he'll run you over. If you force him to sit idle in his base a lot, don't let him pressure you much, you need only read his build and respond with the proper insect-crushing device (stalker,sentry, colossi probably the most popular).
Beware of infestors, and if you see corrupters at any point, figure out where the greater spire is and kill it. Brood Lords can turn the best PvZ into a nightmare, but the spire takes a looong time to build. Snipe it with an immo drop, void rays, or dt, and he'll be set back (and probably rage at you like most Z i've done this to) big time.
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Zerg is fine - lings serve their purpose as a constant economy threat that forces T and P to wall off while Z takes the map.
Zerg threat in early game = you leave them idle, they develop an unstoppable macro faster than you can blink.
Actually disregard all that in favor of OP's veiled suggestion to make all races completely homogeneous as far as strategy.
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I think the question is... how do u really pull off blooming that unstoppable macro? What's the proper balanced way to juggle army/tech/eco?
If you make too many drones and not enough units for your army, a timed attack will run u over (6/9min Immo/Colossus push). This also applies to an aerial rush (VRs/mass phoenix to snipe queens).
If you make too many units to stop the timed attacks (Ling/Roach/Banes or go T2 for Hydra/Muta/Infestor), and you are unable to really put them to good use, P/T can simply expand as you sit in your base and outmacro your unsaturated bases.
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I love zerg early harass with speed lings. I do a 14 pool 13 extractor. First 100 gas goes to speedlings. Second 100 for lair. I start building lings at around 22-23 and whe nI get 10, if I can i'll run them to the mineral line. I get a 2nd extractor when I start lair. I might drop a spine crawler if I feel like being a bit more safe. I'll grab an expo whenever its convenient, usually at like 23 when I'm starting my harass.
I find this transitions well to T2 while having the threat of speedlings. I can really pin down toss and if I don't mess up their economy with the first 10 lings, I force them to put up cannons while I tech to mutas/corrupters.
Depending on what I see I'll adjust, I may delay lair tech for banelings if I see a terran wall-in. I get about 6 banelings, bust the door and swarm in the lings.
Against toss, when they go 1gate1core tech route I can really mess them up. If its a 2gate build if I can get a good surround on a zealot or two, its usually gg. But its a lot tougher, sometimes I just run my speedlings by and destroy their economy.
I'm only in Gold, well Rank 1 silver, but I feel that my strategy is pretty solid. It definitely needs tweaking and learning but I finally have picked a strat and I'm going to stick with it until I really learn its strengths and weaknesses.
On a side note, I finally feel like I'm getting better. A week and a half ago I started this game I was struggling in bronze, but working my way up and improving all aspects of my game and now I'm knocking on gold league! It only took 150 games lol. I only started maining on zerg like 10 games ago, I've been random the whole time.
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On May 05 2010 05:11 Bloodwolf wrote:
I think the question is... how do u really pull off blooming that unstoppable macro? What's the proper balanced way to juggle army/tech/eco?
If you make too many drones and not enough units for your army, a timed attack will run u over (6/9min Immo/Colossus push). This also applies to an aerial rush (VRs/mass phoenix to snipe queens).
If you make too many units to stop the timed attacks (Ling/Roach/Banes or go T2 for Hydra/Muta/Infestor), and you are unable to really put them to good use, P/T can simply expand as you sit in your base and outmacro your unsaturated bases.
Uh, it varies (as it should) from game to game. You're either being agressive (ie. he didn't open phoenix) and trying to contain him while spending minimally on other combat units to bloom your econ while he's in his base, OR you're being responsive to his troop movement (he opened phenix and forced you to get hydras and extra queens) and expanding when you've secured your base from pheonix harassment and you can be sure his limited gateway troops won't come in to muck over your expansion efforts.
Being put on the back-foot by early pheonix is a harder position to expand from, but it also forces the toss player to expend a good deal of resources on phoenix, which are otherwise pretty useless (once you've secured your base), and easy to counter. Just don't feed him mutas and his phoenix probably won't pay for themselves. Use the time he's spending trying to get his own expo going and tech switch to something else (usually colossi) to expand yourself, take multipul expansions if he's really short on troops.
The key is not letting go of map control. Keep spreading creep so your troops are mobile and don't let him push you back into your own base unless he's willing to commit to 1-base all-in style of play (which of course gives you a pretty easy win if you repulse it, since he'll be way behind on econ). You've got far more mobile units. Just don't let him throw pylons all over the map and he shouldn't be able to suprise you at all.
I'll comment on any replays you want to post. I feel evenly matched against the zerg in my plat division and it seems like a very balanced (although very hectic on both sides) match-up, at the moment.
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I'll macro up all day with glee if the other player wants to wall in.
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I'll macro up all day with glee if the other player wants to wall in.
If the opponent put up a wall of gateway, pylon, zealot on hold, and a sentry, its not like its actually putting him behind at all the same way as if he decided to spam cannons, but it still makes him pretty safe.
But it doesnt really change the whole point of this post:
If he walls in, you cannot choose to macro. You are forced to macro, because it means that you cannot do any early aggression with roaches or zerglings.
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Zerg has baneling bust and the threat of a 7 pool. Thats all they need. You have to worry about that because you can instantly lose.
They don't need anymore because they are so wildly superior to the other races in a straight macro game (why do you think Idra plays Zerg?) T and P have to abuse timing windows generally to beat Z right now, because Zerg macro is so strong.
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I can only say one thing.
WE WANT LUNKERS BACK!!!
*sighs fast tech to lurks used to be soooooo much fun in BW! (In both ZvT AND ZvP!)
"/ I wouldn't mind trading banelings (or roaches) for lurkers...
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There is a lot of unnecessary whining in this thread that is mostly unwarrented. Honestly, I feel it is stemming from players who are set in their ways (perhaps from SC1) and refuse a change in paradigm.
"Zerg don't have early game harass" "lings can be stopped by simply walling off" - So can any form of harass(early marine push, marauder, chronoboosted zealots, zerglings, roaches, etc.) aside from the Reaper which the Zerg can easily defend against. I dare you to play a series of games against an opponent (name your non-Zerg race) doesn't wall off and both players play standard. See if the zerglings (and the follow up attacks) from a 12-15 pool don't do more damage then what they send at you. It's part of balancing the game.
"Zerg must blindly tech to Lair to defend against air" - Are we serious? Were you not planning on teching to Lair anyways? Or would you prefer to just sit at T1 and win every game with lings and roaches? Terran are the only race that doesn't have to tech up past their first building to defend against air but most air units fare quite well against the Marine (as do zerglings/zealots)
"Zerg are bland" - This one is my favorite. Playing against Zerg I typically see the same strategies, Muta-ling Roach/Hydra etc. Has anyone considered trying these:
Build a couple infestors and burrow-move them into your opponent's mineral line. Have Drop the Plag-goo on the workers and spam Infested Terran, the combined damage will destroy their mineral line in seconds and the infestors are free to burrow move out of there (until the Raven/Obs arrives to kill them, but they've done their damage at this point).
Leaving a burrowed zergling at every un-captured mineral node, tucking it close to the minerals still lets them place their town hall (meaning you gain sight of it without tipping them off by interrupting their construction) allowing for immediate knowledge of expansions with minimal risk on your behalf. Hell, if Zerglings are half as useless as some of you are making them out to be then there should be little issue assigning this duty to them.
Corruptors - Stopping all building production for 30 seconds from key Terran/Protoss tech or production buildings. Imagine how frustrated a Terran player will be when their 550/150 Planetary Fortress is helpless to defend against an incomming raid.
Additionally, early harass comes in many forms other then doing economic damage. Forcing your opponent to spend resources on things he doesn't necessarily want to build is just as good as letting your zerglings snack on their mineral line. Camping a dozen zergling outside their choke disallows them to move out allowing you to tech up - or forcing them to switch their build order while keeping them blind to your actions.
I have plenty more to offer but I feel this is getting rather long so I will leave it be for now.
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"Zerg don't have early game harass" "lings can be stopped by simply walling off" - So can any form of harass(early marine push, marauder, chronoboosted zealots, zerglings, roaches, etc.) aside from the Reaper which the Zerg can easily defend against
Well no, not really.
When I was playing terran, I was going for a 12 rax 13 rax 15 orbital build with no gas until later on.
You get a bunch of early marines, but its not all-in, you have an expo building.
You move out with your first 7 marines, if you get to a terran base, he walled off, and has 2-3 marines behind his wall, you can shoot down the supply depot, or kill his marines by standing at the top of the ramp, or kill SCVs if they come to repair. 14 zerglings, against a wall, and 3 marines behind it, along with SCV repairing just doesnt compare. the lings die, and you did nearly no damage.
I dont want to win outright with zerglings, or marines every game, that would be boring.
I just feel like it should be possible to apply some pressure early on, without going for an all-in build.
Terran can do that, protoss too to some extent, zerg cannot.
Staring at your opponent and macroing without ever engaging in a fight until you are T2 seems like a bland opening if you ask me. It should be viable, sure, but it would be nice if there was other things you could do too.
Edit: And yeah, once you get to tier 2, a lot of things open up, you can do a lot of different stuff, that isnt the issue though.
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Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained.
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how about zerglings do more damage . there, problem solved
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On May 05 2010 08:41 peckham33 wrote:how about zerglings do more damage . there, problem solved
Yeah! And also give them speed as soon as game starts and the "wing" upgrade shall allow them to cliffhop! xD
Oh yeah, beef HP to 50 each and 5dmg but with adrenal glands already researched from start!
NOW THAT WOULD BE AWEsOME!!!
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On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained.
That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap.
I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even.
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On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even.
This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here.
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I honestly think they're saving like a tier1/2 lurker or long-range unit for the next expansion -_-
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On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here.
That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow).
FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why.
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Banelings vs toss works. That is the early agression. I have not lost any games vs a teching toss with the baneling build i have posted earlier in this thread and i am currently rank 9 platinum pushing 1500 after only having the game for a week ie I cant be that good yet my record vs toss is very strong. I don't know why this thread continues. If toss 2 gates you have roaches for early agression.
Vs terran, the build is not as effective yet still viable.
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On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even.
You respond to me like I am complaining.
Anyways, if you think zerg can play strong 1base like terran or protoss u have to be joking.
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On May 05 2010 10:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here. That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow). FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why.
There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to get started. Zerg cannot contain and FE at the same time, nor can they successfully 1 base against T or P without going all-in. You don't get to choose between early game agression and macro because the agression is NON THREATENING. Any number of zerglings, banelings, and roaches can be dealt with in a choke point. Meanwhile T and P are teching to air/drop/superior units. This gives T and P the choices between early agression and macro. Do you really think a few lings or roaches will stop any decent terran or protoss player from expanding if they want to? No, and the reason why is that T and P have hardcounters to tier 1 zerg units, and the economic advantage of a FE build doesn't kick until later, after the zerg has built a ton of hydra+X. Any threat of containment or early agression completely disappears with hellion/banshee/immortal/void ray/forcefield in play.
You clearly don't understand the concept of threat. If a protoss player makes a zealot/sentry/stalker army, there is a threat of that army being used regardless of whether or not it is used. Putting a unit into play has a significant effect on the gameflow regardless of how the unit is used.
Since the zerg just FE'ed building units at an economic advantage is clearly a poor decision. Therefore the zerg will opt to produce spines and a skeleton force which can defend harassment while building an economic advantage. When you threaten, say a void ray rush the zerg player is forced to not only play a passive macro game due to an inferior tier 1 force which can't attack air, but they are forced to tech and produce AA to prevent the voids from completely shitting down their neck.
Knowing that 1 base play does not threaten your opponent, the only viable option is to deflect harassment until your economic advantage kicks in. Maybe I can use an analogy for you. Imagine you are playing PvT. Now, instead of marauders being a scary unit that you must either get stalker/immortal or void rays to deal with, the marauder is just a joke unit that can be held off indefinitely through usage of forcefield/building a wall. How could terran possibly react to this? Obviously the best option is to choose a macro style game and play defensively in the early game since unit heavy unit production or rushing causes absolutely no threat. Now, being in this position you can easily control the flow of the game by either safely expanding yourself, or opting to tech and harass. Now imagine marines cannot attack air, and that you have to build thors to kill air units. The only threat your opponent has left at this point is the threat of macroing like a whore.
Z can certainly abuse macro, but they pose no real early game threat, which is the the topic at hand.
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On May 05 2010 10:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. You respond to me like I am complaining. Anyways, if you think zerg can play strong 1base like terran or protoss u have to be joking.
I'm not suggesting either.
On May 05 2010 10:16 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 10:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here. That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow). FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why. There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to get started. Zerg cannot contain and FE at the same time, nor can they successfully 1 base against T or P without going all-in. You don't get to choose between early game agression and macro because the agression is NON THREATENING. Any number of zerglings, banelings, and roaches can be dealt with in a choke point. Meanwhile T and P are teching to air/drop/superior units. This gives T and P the choices between early agression and macro. Do you really think a few lings or roaches will stop any decent terran or protoss player from expanding if they want to? No, and the reason why is that T and P have hardcounters to tier 1 zerg units, and the economic advantage of a FE build doesn't kick until later, after the zerg has built a ton of hydra+X. Any threat of containment or early agression completely disappears with hellion/banshee/immortal/void ray/forcefield in play.
Believe what you like. I won't continue the fruitless debate. If you truly believe zerg to be that handicapped, i highly reccomend you play another race just to get a better understanding of the other end of your matches.
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On May 05 2010 10:17 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 10:10 travis wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. You respond to me like I am complaining. Anyways, if you think zerg can play strong 1base like terran or protoss u have to be joking. I'm not suggesting either. Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 10:16 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 10:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here. That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow). FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why. There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to get started. Zerg cannot contain and FE at the same time, nor can they successfully 1 base against T or P without going all-in. You don't get to choose between early game agression and macro because the agression is NON THREATENING. Any number of zerglings, banelings, and roaches can be dealt with in a choke point. Meanwhile T and P are teching to air/drop/superior units. This gives T and P the choices between early agression and macro. Do you really think a few lings or roaches will stop any decent terran or protoss player from expanding if they want to? No, and the reason why is that T and P have hardcounters to tier 1 zerg units, and the economic advantage of a FE build doesn't kick until later, after the zerg has built a ton of hydra+X. Any threat of containment or early agression completely disappears with hellion/banshee/immortal/void ray/forcefield in play. Believe what you like. I won't continue the fruitless debate. If you truly believe zerg to be that handicapped, i highly reccomend you play another race just to get a better understanding of the other end of your matches.
This thread is not discussing balance. Zerg isn't handicapped or worse off than terran or protoss they are just forced into a macro game. I explained in the OP why I think this is negative for the diversity / complexity of play in SC2. Any of your beloved korean zergs would agree that the most reliable opener against T and P involves FE. Why do you think korean zergs make such heavy usage of spine crawlers?
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Heres a great thread ...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122184
showing you tons of variations of Zerg build orders, I actually decided to try Zerg recently and decided to switch to them and I find using them is really pleasureable, I act extremely aggresively with them , I love Speedlings and banelings...
Oversky build (ZvP) - Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. (13p Ling pressure)
- Hide Spoiler -
-13pool
-15gas
-16queen
-@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas
-18hatch
-23ov
Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout.
@~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls.
Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build.
Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs.
Try this Build Order against a Protoss, I dare you, seriously I rarely lose against Protoss, even with Zealots sitting in a single file way you have so many lings you just overrun them, and usually I can somehow fit through anyway ... (I usually keep the Drones on Gas, I take a peek with earlier Lings and if I feel its gonna be tough I make banelings !)
Too many players expect you to do the standard Economic builds, so when they suddenly have like 30 Speedlings at there door they aint ready.
P.S I am Platinum , promoted from Gold and can use all the races to good effect, I got bored of using Protoss and seeing so many, and though Zerg isnt used enough, and now when I see Protoss I am happy
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ya unless your going 5-10 pool on like kulas ravean can you apply some real good pressure on the terran before he walls off.
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OK so I've been playing a bit more now and looking at specific strats especially ones that tend towards early aggression.
Once again I'm pretty inexperienced but I'm really loving sling builds. In fact, I haven't standardized my mid and end game yet but I'm finding myself going sling's against almost all opponents. Basically I use a 13 pool, 13 gas build that lets me start speed research shortly after my pool pops. Its fast enough to fend off ultra aggressive pushes (minus the 6 pool) and you are in a good position to either go baneling or lair once you get slings.
The only time I wont get sling now is if i see VR harass coming. If i scout this, I'll quickly push lair and then do slings while massing hydras.
Slings also lead naturally into an sling/bling bust build which is surprisingly effective given the number of Terran i see that use supply depots to wall off.
Against zerg that goes all in roach, sling just owns as you can hit them before they have time to mass roaches and you can use your blings to either soften up the roaches or go straight to the mineral line.
Either way, as I get more experienced (still silver but top 10 now) I'm finding that early zerg is really just about map control and then countering whatever build the contained protoss or terran goes for.
Either way, you control the map and if you've fended off a 2 gate push, reapers,
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On May 05 2010 10:37 Wr3k wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 10:17 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 10:10 travis wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. You respond to me like I am complaining. Anyways, if you think zerg can play strong 1base like terran or protoss u have to be joking. I'm not suggesting either. On May 05 2010 10:16 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 10:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 09:51 Wr3k wrote:On May 05 2010 09:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 05 2010 07:44 travis wrote:
Queen moves so slow off creep it puts so much more focus on defense early for zerg imo.
Also, these easy perfect wallins are gay. Zerglings do way too little damage to the walls, it's really pretty dumb. If zerglings did more damage it would be ok but they don't.
I don't mind though. Not particularily big complains. I don't really feel disadvantaged, just constrained. That's the reason why creep tumors early are so important. Also, parking units behind a single-gap wallin is not doing anything except stop free probe kills for lings. I don't think the game is balanced around the idea that each ling is entitled to a small number of probe kills per game based on it's speed. It's a highly effective containment and scout-denying unit and it can still punish the enemy if they decide at any point to vacate their gap. I don't think Zerg are constrained in the least. If Zerg are frustrated because they feel too compelled to play a macro game, they should give another race a try for a while. T and P both feel very much compelled to be hyper-agressive to stop that zerg macro. Play on that end of the spectrum for a bit and you'll realize just how much of a blessing it is to be encouraged to macro instead of hope for X amount of drone kills just to break even. This isn't even true though, the other races aren't compelled to do ridiculous harassment. all you have to do is threaten pushes, even if a terran player builds MMM before expanding they can still easily contain the Z, expo, and MULE their way back into the econ game. FE is completely viable as protoss as well, so really, Z is the only race being restricted here. That's completely false. If you FE as zerg and you're intelligent enough to have units in the field, you don't just waste resources on a "threat" unless the opponent has actually expended a lot of early resources on combat units. Say your opponent has two zealots and a sentry and is teching hard, or say he built an expo of his own? You're free to drone up and even take another expansion if you want. Just because he built a few more gateways or rax doesn't mean your expo is in imminent danger, and if you're completely unaware of what your opponent is doing: move your overlords and lings around until you do know something. If he's sitting inside his ramp behind a semi-wall, he's not threatening anything unless he's in the adjacent base and a mere bunny-hop away from attacking you (which is only possible on a small number of maps, where you probably shouldn't FE anyhow). FE is viable for toss, on some maps, but not even close to the degree that it is as zerg. Zerg alone can FE and then immidiatly use the expansion for increased unit poroduction rather than drones. MULEs do make up a lot for terran being a base behind, but the effect is over time. T isn't going to run you over immidiately with a huge production lead as soon as they drop a mule. Honestly, Z has the most flexibility of any race right now in terms of their choices between early agression, containment, and macro in all of their matches. They are most often in control of the map, and dictate the pace and tech of the game (with some exceptions). If you wonder why so many competetive players in korea choose zerg, this is why. There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to get started. Zerg cannot contain and FE at the same time, nor can they successfully 1 base against T or P without going all-in. You don't get to choose between early game agression and macro because the agression is NON THREATENING. Any number of zerglings, banelings, and roaches can be dealt with in a choke point. Meanwhile T and P are teching to air/drop/superior units. This gives T and P the choices between early agression and macro. Do you really think a few lings or roaches will stop any decent terran or protoss player from expanding if they want to? No, and the reason why is that T and P have hardcounters to tier 1 zerg units, and the economic advantage of a FE build doesn't kick until later, after the zerg has built a ton of hydra+X. Any threat of containment or early agression completely disappears with hellion/banshee/immortal/void ray/forcefield in play. Believe what you like. I won't continue the fruitless debate. If you truly believe zerg to be that handicapped, i highly reccomend you play another race just to get a better understanding of the other end of your matches. This thread is not discussing balance. Zerg isn't handicapped or worse off than terran or protoss they are just forced into a macro game. I explained in the OP why I think this is negative for the diversity / complexity of play in SC2. Any of your beloved korean zergs would agree that the most reliable opener against T and P involves FE. Why do you think korean zergs make such heavy usage of spine crawlers?
You think this is a negative impact on diversity and complexity of play. Well, i'm not sure i'd call that strategy, and if it's not discussion of balance, then i guess you just needed someone to talk to. I'm here any time you wanna rant. =)
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On May 05 2010 10:51 ChimpyNuts wrote:Heres a great thread ... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=122184showing you tons of variations of Zerg build orders, I actually decided to try Zerg recently and decided to switch to them and I find using them is really pleasureable, I act extremely aggresively with them , I love Speedlings and banelings... Oversky build (ZvP) - Popularized by oversky early in the hellogoodbye tourney. (13p Ling pressure) - Hide Spoiler - -13pool -15gas -16queen -@100gas, ling speed + pull drones off gas -18hatch -23ov Rally lings nearby toss choke, keep a small squad of ling further up to deny scout. @~36 ling, attack + nonstop ling production. Don't be afraid of zealot walls. Counters: any other tech build (robo, stargate, etc), any techless gateway zealot build. Countered by: fast warpgates (2-3 warpgates), forge openings, full wall-offs. Try this Build Order against a Protoss, I dare you, seriously I rarely lose against Protoss, even with Zealots sitting in a single file way you have so many lings you just overrun them, and usually I can somehow fit through anyway ... (I usually keep the Drones on Gas, I take a peek with earlier Lings and if I feel its gonna be tough I make banelings !) Too many players expect you to do the standard Economic builds, so when they suddenly have like 30 Speedlings at there door they aint ready. P.S I am Platinum , promoted from Gold and can use all the races to good effect, I got bored of using Protoss and seeing so many, and though Zerg isnt used enough, and now when I see Protoss I am happy
2 zealots at the choke, a sentry, a stalker. You move up the ramp, forcefield, 5-10 lings trapped inside, easily picked appart. Repeat as many times as needed.
If he has pure zealots, eventually, with enough lings, you can break in. If he has a few sentries, it doesnt matter if you have 400 cracklings or 30 speedlings, you aint getting inside.
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I've been having great success as Terran in going 3 racks and pressuring zerg, but recently I've been getting owned by a zerg that uses a lot of lings, banelings, and later hydras off of initially 1 base play. My early pressure force gets wiped out, and the zerg is free to expand or counter attack.
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lol zerglings are weak? What game are you guys playing?
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On May 05 2010 13:59 Brightside6382 wrote:
lol zerglings are weak? What game are you guys playing?
I think the point of the discussion is that lings are really ineffective vs a well manned choke. Since this is zergs 1 of 2 units that is less than tier 2, it seriously limits our options, the only time it is efficient to attack is if the opponent has his units outside his base in an open enviorment, since we have noother way to get around the choke before tier 2, we must react to whatever the opponent is doing.
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On May 05 2010 14:10 Balor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 13:59 Brightside6382 wrote:
lol zerglings are weak? What game are you guys playing? I think the point of the discussion is that lings are really ineffective vs a well manned choke. Since this is zergs 1 of 2 units that is less than tier 2, it seriously limits our options, the only time it is efficient to attack is if the opponent has his units outside his base in an open enviorment, since we have noother way to get around the choke before tier 2, we must react to whatever the opponent is doing.
You have the baneling to break a choke if you absolutely want to. That is t1.5.
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On May 05 2010 14:10 Balor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 13:59 Brightside6382 wrote:
lol zerglings are weak? What game are you guys playing? I think the point of the discussion is that lings are really ineffective vs a well manned choke. Since this is zergs 1 of 2 units that is less than tier 2, it seriously limits our options, the only time it is efficient to attack is if the opponent has his units outside his base in an open enviorment, since we have noother way to get around the choke before tier 2, we must react to whatever the opponent is doing.
How is this any different from BW then?
Also, you guys are placing to much emphasis on the walls and actually breaking them. A small group of speedlings does more psychological harm than any other unit early game. A group outside the opponents choke has them constantly checking for the fear of run-ins and causes players to become hesitant due to the fear of back stabs or other janky speedling shenanigans. How is this not good early game aggression?
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I couldn't agree more with the OP, I was arguing near this exact same thing the other day, and I found this thread and was happy I wasn't alone ;D
I'm new to SC, played around 110 matches and was Rank 2 gold as zerg, and I just got sick and tired of the play style. It just felt like I was ALWAYS on the receiving end just trying to endure. Some people may like to play more macro intensive, so hey be my guest and play zerg, but it just wasn't for me. It feels a lot more fun to be on the offensive.
I decided to screw around with protoss for awhile to see if I liked them better(I only played 3-4 games in non ranked matches to get used to the buildings/units), played 2 ladder games, and got matched up against zerg both times. Zerg was slightly favored too, so these are high rank gold/low plat zerg I was playing, and I won both times My macro was HORRIBLE, but damn I just knew where to be and how exactly to counter their strategy.
First game he FE'd, so i 2 gated, killed the expo, forced him to make a ton of zerglings to fend off my zealots. tech'd straight to stargate and got 2 voidrays out while his spire was only half finished(he went speedlings into mutas, no roaches/hydras). was pretty much gg from there.
2nd game was lost temple and we were opposite sides, so the 2 gate wasn't effective since I didn't proxy(hay I'm new to toss :x). He went lings/hydras, and I got speed zealots + 3 colossai and just barbequed his entire army.
My macro was sloppy, I had what I can only assume to be less than optimal BO's since I'm new to toss, and I still just rolled them. Playing zerg really just exposed me to their weaknesses big time. I'm glad I made the switch.
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On May 05 2010 06:56 STS17 wrote:
Build a couple infestors and burrow-move them into your opponent's mineral line. Have Drop the Plag-goo on the workers and spam Infested Terran, the combined damage will destroy their mineral line in seconds and the infestors are free to burrow move out of there (until the Raven/Obs arrives to kill them, but they've done their damage at this point).
Problems with this is that you can't burrow under buildings aka walloffs so you have to either drop them from an overlord or get a nydus worm, this does not work agains terran as any terran that doesn't do math with his ass and a bit of crayon will have a sensory tower, and it's only viable VS protoss if they do not have any cannons in their mineral line.
Now that that is said seeing as we are talking about early game I don't see how a tier 2 caster is considered early game as they first need to be teched to and then need energy to perform this little stunt.
Leaving a burrowed zergling at every un-captured mineral node, tucking it close to the minerals still lets them place their town hall (meaning you gain sight of it without tipping them off by interrupting their construction) allowing for immediate knowledge of expansions with minimal risk on your behalf. Hell, if Zerglings are half as useless as some of you are making them out to be then there should be little issue assigning this duty to them.
Agreed and I don't get why people do not do this, this could possibly be polished more by using a baneling and blow up that nexus the moment it's made thus creating an effective eco contain.
I doubt it will work as well on terrans as I mostly see floating CCs to expos.
Corruptors - Stopping all building production for 30 seconds from key Terran/Protoss tech or production buildings. Imagine how frustrated a Terran player will be when their 550/150 Planetary Fortress is helpless to defend against an incomming raid.
I have no idea why but you can not corrupt Planetary fortresses, I love using it against missile turrets and cannons when harassing their mineral line with mutas, I see people using this later on as a block on protoss rapid reinfocement and scv/probe rebuild after a successful attack on their mineral line/s not to mention viking spamming terrans. <3
Then again a gasheavy tier 2 unit is not early game.
Additionally, early harass comes in many forms other then doing economic damage. Forcing your opponent to spend resources on things he doesn't necessarily want to build is just as good as letting your zerglings snack on their mineral line. Camping a dozen zergling outside their choke disallows them to move out allowing you to tech up - or forcing them to switch their build order while keeping them blind to your actions.
I have plenty more to offer but I feel this is getting rather long so I will leave it be for now.
Problems I see with this is that you are putting yourself in a worse situation, both protoss and terran can build units at the same time as they are pumping workers while you as zerg have to sacrifice a drone in order to have the larva to make a zergling, this reduces your income more than protoss or terran due to the fact that minerals are often not the problem after the first 10-12 workers but rather how many workers you can push out to saturate it
Overall it slows down your macro ball effect more than any of the other races which is what zerg as it stands primarely live off.
To boot terran can just float off if there is an expansion with rocks on the ramp.
I never really played scbw and so I have nothing to compare it to, all I know is I find myself constantly trying to defend the first pushes / harrasses and grab an expo after that. I'm also in the top bronze league atm so my opinions might not be valid higher up.
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Meh, Zerg couldn't really pressure at hatch tech in SC1 either. Against standard builds like Protoss FE, you can either 4pool, 9pool runby (don't work against probe blocking ramp), or speedling all in, hydra-all in or wait for lair. Against terran wall in, you simply can't attack at all and might face everything from 2port to 3rax bust to vult drop which you can't scout before hand and have to defend. Sunker willing into 3hatch muta is the standard after all, and the aggression in that comes after muta tech.
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I disagree with the OP. Zerglings come out much sooner than sentries and if he went 1gate cybercore a sustained push of zerglings should be able to put lots of pressure on, before he can FF his ramp. Assuming you heavily outnumber his zealots his best option is to wall off completely at that point.
I mean, if your opponent goes a turtle build and walls off his choke completely with factory buildings, then no you're not going to be able to pressure until tier 2... But how is this different from Broodwar? At least now you have baneling bust on supply depots, forcing him to put factories in his wall.
As soon as lair tech comes you can get burrowed roaches or overlord speed/drop.. And you can research those from a hatchery now so you can get them both at the same time.
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On May 06 2010 01:33 SWPIGWANG wrote:
Meh, Zerg couldn't really pressure at hatch tech in SC1 either. Against standard builds like Protoss FE, you can either 4pool, 9pool runby (don't work against probe blocking ramp), or speedling all in, hydra-all in or wait for lair. Against terran wall in, you simply can't attack at all and might face everything from 2port to 3rax bust to vult drop which you can't scout before hand and have to defend. Sunker willing into 3hatch muta is the standard after all, and the aggression in that comes after muta tech.
Zergling pressure was infinitely better in sc1 than in sc2.
In sc1:
1.)terran could rush with marines/scv/bunker
2.)protoss could rush with zealots and brings probes if wanted. or go zealot/cannon rush.
3.)zerg could do very effective ling rushes.
in sc2 #1 and #2 are the same, but #3 isn't the same at all.
In sc1 u could harrass with zerglings so well that pool -> speedlings was a common pro opening. Not to mention the diversity of lair tech (lurkers and mutas requiring vastly different counters) meant that 1base play could open up into powerful options to outplay your opponent.
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wow... i find zerg to be the most annoying race. I usually play terran, but have transitioned to zerg. Zerg is the master harrasser. Lings aren't great by themselves... use them in numbers!!! not only can you harass but you can scout. Okay, so what they blocked themselves in, this is your chance to expo and tech up. by the time they decide to attack or harrass you with some banshees or void rays, you SHOULD have AA. i.e. hydras or even mutas.
with early game lings, if they walled in and have units... you go mess with their destructible rocks for a bit. they won't reaper you, because you have units that'll easy defend it.
I usually ALWAYS 8 pool unless i get bored and want to try something else, it's easy to transition.
8 - pool
7/10 build 2 drones. 9/10
make ovie
your ovie and pool will be done at the same time
make 6 lings
then queen.
drone
drone
ovie
extractor
roach warren
expoing early i think is very dumb. i usually expo when i got some roaches, and my main base is greatly saturated.
i realized with zerg, having lings, roaches, hydras or mutas... is necessary. you need to mix everything up. attack from different angles with your lings.
and mutas seriously are so effing annoying, you gotta love them.
i haven't used infestors much, because i just simply haven't had the need for them. If i had them, i would overkill.
I haven't lost with zerg yet, but i'm only in gold. but i'm like 19-0
I'm in plat 2v2, haven't lost one when my partner and i are both zerg, unless one of us gets dropped.
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On May 05 2010 14:59 Brightside6382 wrote:
How is this any different from BW then?
Because lings did like 70% more damage in BW then they do in SC2... thats a HUGE difference, where marines and zealots either have the same dps or increase dps... so ya...
and in SC1 99% of the time a wall wasn't 100% ling proof...
also in SC1 there were no unbreakable walls called FF
so very different.
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This has been bothering me lately also. Zergs are put into a spot that the other two races arent. If Toss/Terran don't build a big enough army to fight off a zerg players army early game they don't get punished for it. They don't even lose a single worker. If zerg don't build a big enough army to fight off a toss/terrans army early game they LOSE. the toss/terran walk straight up the ramp to the mineral line and start killing drones.
There's no buying 20-30 seconds with a couple zealots placed at a wallin or raised supply depots so that reinforcements can arrive. If the toss/terran kills off your early game army and only 8-9 marines or 3-4 zealots survive you lose most of your workers and a tech building. That's zergs delaying option, a+move with drones. If a zerg wins a fight and has 10-15 zerglings left and rushes them to the enemies base 1 zealot or a few scvs repairing prevent anything.
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I agree with the OP.
I dont know why Blizzard thought it would be a good idea to make toss have like 12 units and terran 14, when zerg has only 9. (Not 100% sure its the correct numbers but its something like it, either way it proves a point)
Zerg lacks variation because of this, it should be pretty obvious.
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9?
Drone
Overlord
Overseer
Changeling
Zergling
Baneling
Roach
Infestor
Infested Terran
Mutalisk
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Thats 13, 11 if you dont include the Infested Terran and the Changeling, since both are going to be replaced.
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Baneling bust is going to be your only non all in early game threat. It may lack in diversity but it is very devastating when your opponent isn't expecting it.
Also I think it's clear that in SC2, blizzard designed terran to be the harasser race. Zerg seems to be the turtle and marco race. While toss seems to be the epic timing push race. The only problem is that terran has very good timing pushes (thor timing push with SCV's is SOOOO hard to deal with) and can still out turtle anyone.
This is a problem that can be easily corrected by fixing roaches.
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I think the original point wasn't balance but variety. You can argue that therevis variety between the 14pool/15hatch build and a faster 8 pool but walls are hard to break. However I don't mind it, if the other player walls in I can usually win with macro. In my experience they give up map control to speedlings and I can get hydras before any air rush. First 100 gas can get lair if you're nervous about it. One thing I hate is that it's hard to scout without observers or scans. Sometimes I have to suicide an overlord or two.
14pool/15hatch is really easy to defend in my experience, I've never lost to an early rush with that build. I'm sure that can be blamed on my opponents to a degree, and a reaper harrass or a bunker on my natural would probably wreck me. I've heard that the best way to fight the Zerg FE is to harrass and force them to overreact with spinecrawlers.
Either way, in some of my games people complain that Zerg is op because of their production, but if you turtle up and give up map control for too long then you can't keep up. I think this makes for interesting gameplay as each player has to balance their army and economy instead of one base play. It's definitely not that simple of course. I do wish it was easier to scout though, I'm always worried about what they're hiding. While I prefer to macro up, it would be nice if one base roach play can still be an option. There is still time before the release for something to happen.
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On May 19 2010 02:08 Catch]22 wrote:
9?
Drone
Overlord
Overseer
Changeling
Zergling
Baneling
Roach
Infestor
Infested Terran
Mutalisk
Corruptor
Broodlord
Ultralisk
Thats 13, 11 if you dont include the Infested Terran and the Changeling, since both are going to be replaced.
Well zerg does have a lot of units that can appear on the battlefield. But when you start talking about how many units zerg can actually build as part of an army composition?
Drone
Overlord
Overseer
Changeling
Infested Terran
These are not units that you can build as part of your army. Its not like you can tech to overseer/changeling army to threaten your opponent and put some pressure on him.
So you are left with an actual choice of 8 units to build your army with.
If you look at protoss for example, they would have an actual 12 units they can use for combat. (not counting observer and warp prism)
Terran has 12 counting the medivac.
So it does seem that there are more unit choices for terran and toss than for zerg.
Broodlings, overlords, overseers, changelings, larva, queens, infested terrans, and drones, are all "units", true, but you cant really count them as actual combat units or tech choices for an army composition, imo.
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On May 03 2010 06:52 peckham33 wrote:
i read this on a live-feed chat once and it stuck in my mind:
the focus of each race:
Terran: adaptability
Zerg: numbers
Protoss: late game power
Not really, but yes i guess.
Zerg needs numbers, but ever since the roach nerf, they are not impeccable late-game now vs toss, as before, Protoss was'nt as powerful late-game against Z until now. I agree though that T is all about diversity, they have so many combat units and different openings, but Z's openings in a non mirror matchup will nearly always be some type of FE build, or a 1base into a delayed FE, either way you need an expansion to beat a 1base T or P.
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lol, i cant believe you actually counted drone and overlord.
As someone said above, Terran has 12 counting medevac, and toss has 12 not counting observer and warp prism.
And Zerg has 9 combat units.
Why is this soo way off for me but not for anyone else? terran has 12, protoss has 12, seems balanced enough, then zerg has 9? I mean ok if we had 11, or 13, but we got 9?
If someone thinks that zerg gameplay is dull, that should be one of the reasons. I know its my reason anyway.
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I whole heartedly agree with this thread, yet I might be a tad bit biased since I just lost 8 games in a row, all vs. Toss or Terran.
Half of them I was Ling harassing the **** out of them, yet they somehow managed to mass a larger army and run right over me. The other half were perfectly executed timing attacks that, even though I saw coming, were nigh impossible to stop. I only managed to win my last game because it was Blistering Sands, and I abused the backdoor. Why don't more maps have backdoors?
Lings are weak, Roaches are too slow, Hydras are instantly murdered by any Thor, Siege Tank, or Collosus that looks at it the wrong way, and Mutas are garbage at doing anything but harassing.
Zerg need some major work.
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im so tired of the turtling, i try to cheese it every chance i get. Any one base build is always all-in for zerg, but I'm not against taking down the destructible rocks or a fast nydus worm rush. Its fun to mix up the play every so often and not FE.
I've had decent success with the hidden fast expansion also. Place it all the way across the map and use it until they find it. When they find it, do a hard quick back stab and hope youve had enough time for that FE to win it for you.
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On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
In case no one has reponded to this yet, you're quite simply wrong. Any intelligent Terran will have scouted the Baneling nest, 3-4 won't break the Terran wall, and this is far too slow to beat out the first Hellion which will absolutely shut down zerglings and banelings. Baneling busts against Terran are actually quite terrible if they scout, and still somewhat terrible if they play carefully without a scout. They are more effective against Protoss, though this build is cutting the timing a little too close to the sentry getting out, and the Protoss can nullfiy your Baneling splash with some reasonable zealot micro. I've Baneling busted quite frequently and while it works well in low Platinum or below top 5 gold, it stops working particularly well after that.
This will work against Void Ray rushes barring some amazing micro by the Protoss though, you are right about that.
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On May 06 2010 02:44 krnbrasha wrote:
wow... i find zerg to be the most annoying race. I usually play terran, but have transitioned to zerg. Zerg is the master harrasser. Lings aren't great by themselves... use them in numbers!!! not only can you harass but you can scout. Okay, so what they blocked themselves in, this is your chance to expo and tech up. by the time they decide to attack or harrass you with some banshees or void rays, you SHOULD have AA. i.e. hydras or even mutas.
with early game lings, if they walled in and have units... you go mess with their destructible rocks for a bit. they won't reaper you, because you have units that'll easy defend it.
If you aren't gettign rolled after 8 pooling and devoting enough larva to get "numbers" early game then you are playing some spectacularly bad opponents. The economic cost to your strategy is terrible, with zero benefit against Terran and only some benefit against Protoss.
Also, I forgot to mention this in my last post, but the OP is absolutely correct. This has been bothering me for weeks now, and it's only getting worse the more I play. When a standard Terran scout will see the six pool just as lings are getting out there's something terribly wrong with the matchup. Canceling one SCV allows him to complete the wall immediately if he went standard, making 6 pool 100% useless against even just decent Terrans.
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On May 19 2010 00:47 SureYouCan wrote:
This has been bothering me lately also. Zergs are put into a spot that the other two races arent. If Toss/Terran don't build a big enough army to fight off a zerg players army early game they don't get punished for it. They don't even lose a single worker. If zerg don't build a big enough army to fight off a toss/terrans army early game they LOSE. the toss/terran walk straight up the ramp to the mineral line and start killing drones.
There's no buying 20-30 seconds with a couple zealots placed at a wallin or raised supply depots so that reinforcements can arrive. If the toss/terran kills off your early game army and only 8-9 marines or 3-4 zealots survive you lose most of your workers and a tech building. That's zergs delaying option, a+move with drones. If a zerg wins a fight and has 10-15 zerglings left and rushes them to the enemies base 1 zealot or a few scvs repairing prevent anything.
While i completely agree with the fact that lings cannot raid probe lines anymore... its veryy annoying they jump out to get the zlot like 10 miles away...... The answer to all of these problems is banelings im very sure... 1 or 2 or 3 in mineral line and youve got an exponential rape. My Zerg play has gotten better by using these wonderous things called banelings. I think as Zerg you should never skip any tech building... its more about deciding which route you take first. But you should have already built the other tech buildings so when it comes time you are getting hardcountered or harassed you will be ready.
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I think a point that has been overlooked is that buildings for Zerg cost drones. To get more drones, you have to get larva from hatcheries. Unfortunately for Zerg, to keep up with economy, they now have to more drones. In turn, they have less larva to turn into an army. Sure, mid-game when you constantly have to remember to inject with queens, you should be rolling in larva ready to re-produce the army you just lost. But in early game, the only thing I'm waiting for as a Zerg player is MORE LARVA.
On the other hand, Protoss have been granted the "Chrono-boost" ability, which allows them to gather a great amount of probes quickly. Not only that, but they get to warp in buildings, allowing them to get right back to work and mine more. They don't have to wait to produce any guys, they can just simply queue more an chrono-boost them out. When they are ready for their army, they don't have to choose between more probes or more zealots - they can do both at the same time, as much as their minerals allow them.
Think of a Zerg economy build:
7 drone
8 drone
9 drone
9 overlord
10 drone
11 drone
12 drone
13 drone
14 drone
From here, you can choose to expand or build your spawning pool. Either way, you're waiting for more larva to get back the drones you lose to buildings (and scouting). Let's say your 14th drone builds your spawning pool. Now you have one less drone mining, so the 50 minerals you spent on the drone was a down payment on what has actually cost you 250 minerals for a spawning pool, + the loss of a drone. What else have you purchased? Oh, an overlord, so your first "building" in an economy build has cost you a total of 350 minerals and the loss of a worker.
A Protoss economy build might be the following:
7 probe
8 probe
9 probe
9 pylon
10 probe
11 probe*
12 probe*
13 probe*
14 probe*
*denote chrono-boosted
Now probably before or after queuing up that 14th probe, your gateway is already being built. You're not waiting for any larva at this point, an you can continue to pump out probes and pylons necessary to jump start your economy. You haven't lost any probes to buildings, so they continue to gather minerals. What have you paid? Well, you were required to get a pylon, so that is 100 minerals, and the gateway is another 150. So in order to start pumping out your first army members, you've had to spend only 250 minerals, and you have lost NO workers (and very little work time). With all the extra minerals you are grabbing, you can continue to pump out workers without having to wait for larva.
Let's look at some actual times (please note that this might be slightly off, I'm not a professional). The following will have the following formatting: Supply (x/x) - Action - Time.
Zerg:
7/10 - Drone - 0:01
8/10 - Drone - 0:19
9/10 - Drone - 0:32
9/10 - Overlord - 0:49
10/10 - Drone - 0:58
11/18 - Drone - 1:15
12/18 - Drone - 1:15
13/18 - Drone - 1:24
14/18 - Drone - 1:35
13/18 - S. Pool - 1:55
Spent on Economy: 500
Spent on Technology: 200
Protoss:
7/10 - Probe - 0:01
8/10 - Probe - 0:19
9/10 - Probe - 0:36
9/10 - Pylon - 0:52
10/10 - Probe - 0:58
11/18 - Probe - 1:17
12/18 - Probe - 1:29
13/18 - Probe - 1:41
14/18 - Probe - 1:52
14/18 - Gateway - 1:52
Spent on Economy: 500
Spent on Technology: 150
At the 2:05 mark, the 14th probe comes out of the Nexus. At this time, the Protoss have 125 minerals to spend. At this time, the Zerg have only 75 minerals to spend.
So now what? The Zerg need to get a queen out somewhat soon to be able to spend all the minerals they have on an army. If they start going towards other buildings, that's more drones that need to be made to make up for lost workers. The Protoss however do not need to wait for larva, so they can continue to build up their economy without waiting.
The Zerg is known for being able to recuperate their entire army at the drop of a pin. Absolutely, but you have to remember to continue to inject, and it has to be later in the game. This is completely useless if the opponent overwhelms you with better units while you try to make up for lost drones early in the game.
Just MY 2 minerals...that I can't spend because I'm waiting for larva.
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While i've yet to play against good(platinum) players, the problem is that if you contain the T or P, they can't scout out your base. So what to do? Go for a fake contain.
If the T scans and see's the early baneling nest, he'll know to expect a baneling bust or some kind of threat. He'll go for extra wall in, and decide to macro up his army. While this is great and all, the minerals/gas invested in those said banelings will contain him to one base, instead of optionally expanding to another. With careful overlord placement, you can keep him in one base until he decides to push out.
If he doesn't scan, don't hesitate to show him. Try for that baneling bust. scare him into expecting more. The great thing about getting fast banelings early is the ability to scare. At the very least, destroy a supply depot in order to set him back that extra 100 gold.
As for P, if they don't have enough units to handle a baneling bust, your speedlings will be free to cause hell. AND SCOUT. Since one of the largest problems i have with Z is scouting early, this is a partial solution. If i see those void rays coming, i'll know to double up on queens.
I absolutely love using speedlings and banelings to this effect- while i sacrifice the economy for tech, i force the terran/protoss into a limited ammount of options. If my early scout saw the reactor or tech lab, i can predict what the T is up to, minus creative play. If i see the cybernetics core, i can predict what the P is going to do. With the fake contain, they're FORCED to make an early wall off against you. a group of 15 speedlings and 6 banelings will hardly kill your economy. It might set you back, but the contain grantees your ability to tech and expand undisturbed until a certain point. The result? a 2 base full saturated macro zerg vs a starving 1 base desperate P/T. if their push out fails, they're left with a VERY limited set of options.
Because of this, zerg is essentially free to macro. It's your job to continuously apply 'fake' pressure and scout. While one base is constantly producing drones/injecting, i can use the second hatch in order to make zerglings and inject for more drones. I can opt to go for a 4 queen AA defense, and still make use of their energy to expand my creep tumors. If you have the advantage of being able to double gas early, then do it.
While i'm not a perfect player, i find this sort of strategy helps a lot in terms of 'applying pressure'. Even though it's not real, the terran and protoss player don't know what your doing. They don't know if your rushing brood lords, or going for a hydra-roach army. You can opt to go for a full baneling/speedling 'all in' if your economy is good enough to sustain a 3 zergling/baneling pump. There's tons of variations you can use. Even though the zergling isnt' as strong, it makes up for it by being able to morph into the baneling, which is a ridiculous force to be reckoned with if not protected against.
A Good T will defend against this with hellions, then go for a heavy hellion/thor/tank/marauder build. You can expect this. Knowing this, you can react in a way that puts you in an advantageous situation.
The P is going for a colossus timed push? great! Now we know what he's doing. and he still doesn't know what your up to
Another little trick i like to do: research burrow and burrow banelings at points where you know the opponent will be. This relys on map familiarity. If your early speedlings get decimated by a t/p thats pushing out, you'll be able to see where his army is headed. place banelings somewhere you know they'll have to eventually cross, but isn't a choke. hopefully with a little luck, you'll be able to destroy or damage a part of his army before it even gets to your base.
Trick #2- While he's contained, don't hesitate to use little tricks. Go for that nydus canal. Try that overlord baneling drop. try for a infestor burrow drop. While good players have their base contained, it'll force units away from his main gate, causing an opportunity to attack.
Trick #3- place overlords around his base entirely, so you literally have vision if he tries to move out with air. See that medivac going for a drop? great!. Warp prism? gotcha!. can't sneak anything past me, i have you fully contained. You can kill my overlords with air, but with my creep highway, my hydras should be there rather quickly.
Here's a "MEH" demonstration. As i said, i'm not exactly the best sc2 zerg player. Don't critique me based on my play, or the person i'm playing against. It's merely a demonstration of a zvt game where i implement some parts i discussed. Watch it from the T perspective, and think to yourself- what is the zerg doing?
http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/5827
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You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know!
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I agree with the initial idea. It doesn't feel like zerg can do anything it could in BW in early game.
And that's disappointing, especially considering I'm a zerg player.
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On May 22 2010 15:52 dehboy wrote:
You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know!
If you did not switch at patch 12, you re a proud Cerebrate, keep up the fight against those imba mfckers :D
The new overseer might be a pain in the ass for the opponents now, though the ultra is weaker than it was befor the "buff"
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workers can gib the infested terran in like 3 seconds it ****ing sucks
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On May 03 2010 06:20 daywiss wrote:
i think baneling if used correctly fills the role of a pressure unit, except againts toss really. i would really like them to be viable vs toss, but with sentry its just too easy to stop.
I disagree. Banelings are DEVASTATING against the Protoss. They are NOT easy to stop. Force field? That's just preventing the inevitable, you're just preventing the banelings from rolling up your ramp and fucking shit up a second more than it was supposed to.
I played one Zerg who opened up Banelings against me, and it completely RAPED me. He had lings out early to pressure and to contain me, and then banelings rolled in and took out all of my units and then he just sent the remaining banelings straight to my worker line.
Banelings are DEADLY. If used correctly in the early game with lings, you can contain the opponent fast and they have the potential to decimate the oponent right off the bat. I don't think people realize how deadly banelings are, especially if you open with them.
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On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
Thank you for this wonderful and informative post. I am going to try this build out a few games and see how well it does for me! A quick question, does this build work just as well on small vs large maps (IE LT vs Incineration Zone?) Thanks!
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This has been a most interesting topic but I feel for Starcraft 2 in terms of the Econ problem that Zerg players like myself have with balancing out Army to Worker ratio is to add 1 more Larva instead of SC 1 and SC 2's 3 Although the queen helps cover the problem by constantly injecting and maintaining the production maintaining between Econ and Army is rather difficult until mid to late game where Zerg suffers significantly due to poor end game. I have been into too many games where I would watch the replays and constantly see myself atleast 15 to 10 workers short compared to everyone else and when I compensate for it next game I don't have a effective army to counter any attack. As for overall in the discussion I think walling in should be less readily available like it is now. Although its a fantastic strategy to control games from being 2 min games its something Zerg just cant do and I feel pressured into having no choice but to harass or lose the game and cause atleast 1 Minute of econ shut down early game every single game. I think Blizzard is trying out new things for the zerg but taking hydras out of tier one and moving burrow to tier 2 makes me also pressured into quick teching and FE after a probably assured failed harass since if they properly walled or if my harass ended before it could do damage I wont last meta game.
The way it feels is that Zerg is FORCED to do things a certain way which I think is what the OP wanted to refer to is Why should I feel FORCED into playing like this and that as my only viable options while Terran and Protoss can branch out easily and effectively while maintaining two highly effective strategies at any given time.
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I really think roaches and hydras needed to be switched. Hydra T1 and Roach T2. Of course this would require a lot of stat adjusting and balancing work but with the way it is right now, I find myself building Roach Warren AFTER I build the Hydra Den because if you commit to roaches early you will just get destroyed by the inevitable void rays/mutas/banshees.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 22 2010 23:28 BluFenix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 11:54 houseurmusic wrote:
I disagree with OP. Banelings are the way to go for early aggression against all 3 races. I am rank 10 platinum (playing for a total of 3 days) and been having much success with the following build I made against teching opponents.
10 - ovie
10 - extractor trick and scout.
14 - gas
13 - pool
15 - ovie
This opening stops any kind of rush and leaves you with a decent eco. If toss is teching, terran is going for fast tech or reaper, or anything build vs zerg the following has worked for me.
When pool pops -> 2 lings, speed up, and queen.
next 50 gas baneling nest and take 2 off gas.
make non top lings until 26/26 then take expo.
When banelings nest pops speed will be done make 3 - 4 banelings outside opponents base.
Attack with about 15 speedlings and 3-4 banelings.
Toss will not have a sentry yet and if they do, it wont help them. Banelings will hit and kill there zelots/supply depot/pylon. You will be in there base with speedlings while pumping more if everything has gone well. I usually like to run a few speed lings to the corner of there base and morph them into banelings while running around with my other lings. Then use those banelings to hit the worker line.
**This build is especially effective vs those damn void ray rushes.
You can definitely do some damage if micro'd right. If you cant win the game right there you can now begin building another queen and massing drones. I'm not at my home comp now, but i can try to post some reps when i get home.
Thank you for this wonderful and informative post. I am going to try this build out a few games and see how well it does for me! A quick question, does this build work just as well on small vs large maps (IE LT vs Incineration Zone?) Thanks!
As a person who got rolled over by this build in LT, I can attest to say that it works on both small and large maps.
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Yeah, I agree, and even with the threat of Banelings, unless you want to go for a basically low-eco all-in because if a BBust fails then you're out of the game. Banelings I feel aren't really useful unless your opponent has been really concentrating on Marines or more Melee units. Other units make short work of Banelings. Err, well I guess with a large army they could tank the damage but still, until Lair Tech zerg has to always just like be a freaking turtle. At least in Starcraft Brood War, you could threaten Terran with runby's and Protoss with the same thing. Now that doesn't mean crap.
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On May 22 2010 16:03 Geo.Rion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2010 15:52 dehboy wrote:
You can use tricks, sure, but assumptions definitely still make an ass out of you and me.
What are some other thoughts? As a Zerg player on the verge of switching to the darkside, I'd like to know! If you did not switch at patch 12, you re a proud Cerebrate, keep up the fight against those imba mfckers :D The new overseer might be a pain in the ass for the opponents now, though the ultra is weaker than it was befor the "buff"
Am I weird, because I actually switched TO ZERG after Patch 12 and 13 lol.
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On May 23 2010 04:05 kineSiS- wrote:
Am I weird, because I actually switched TO ZERG after Patch 12 and 13 lol.
Yes, you are.
Hopefully the new overseer will help a bit, but so far I haven't been able to do a whole lot with it. Lone infested terrans suuuuuuuuck as harassment. I think they should either greatly buff the infested terran himself or just make it a cheaper spell.
Corruption however is fun to use.
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Corruption is your weapon of choice vs later timing attacks.
Say you're Protoss and you know that there's an overseer nearby. Will you be able to spend that chrono boost effectively?
Same with terran because of the gigantic amount of upgrades they need. What happens if that Siege Mode doesn't finish on time? Or the concussive shells, when you see a baneling wave moving towards you?
You don't need to harass that much as Zerg. Your economy and map awareness are already better than T's or P's. All you have to deal with is with the effectiveness of their units, and their harass.
I find it weird that they're still trying to put infested terrans in the game, though. The very concept of it is a bad one. I wonder if they'll put that LoS blocker spell back into the game somehow in one of the expansions.
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EPT
