• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 15:26
CET 21:26
KST 05:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners10Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10[ASL20] Finals Preview: Arrival13TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting12[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11
Community News
StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon!45$5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship7[BSL21] RO32 Group Stage4Weekly Cups (Oct 26-Nov 2): Liquid, Clem, Solar win; LAN in Philly2Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win10
StarCraft 2
General
Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t StarCraft, SC2, HotS, WC3, Returning to Blizzcon! RotterdaM "Serral is the GOAT, and it's not close" TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners Weekly Cups (Oct 20-26): MaxPax, Clem, Creator win
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Merivale 8 Open - LAN - Stellar Fest Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond)
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death Mutation # 497 Battle Haredened Mutation # 496 Endless Infection
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Where's CardinalAllin/Jukado the mapmaker? [ASL20] Ask the mapmakers — Drop your questions
Tourneys
[ASL20] Grand Finals [BSL21] RO32 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO32 Group B - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Current Meta PvZ map balance How to stay on top of macro? Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! Korean Music Discussion Series you have seen recently...
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Learning my new SC2 hotkey…
Hildegard
Coffee x Performance in Espo…
TrAiDoS
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Reality "theory" prov…
perfectspheres
Our Last Hope in th…
KrillinFromwales
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1620 users

[SC2B] View From the Top

Forum Index > News
78 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 Next All

[SC2B] View From the Top

Text byHeyoka
March 18th, 2010 02:48 GMT

Hello, sports fans! It's time once again for the favorite pastime of the TL stat desk - to comb through spreadsheets and see if anything noteworthy pops up. With a new game comes 5new opportunities to look at numbers and convince ourselves they have meaning.

I wanted to answer basic questions like what the race breakdown is among players are at the top, and how it compares across servers. Player rankings is not public yet, but I was able to scrap together a mostly-whole picture thanks to some recent threads. I slapped it all into a spreadsheet and wrote a nice script that tallies up the availible statistics from the top users. The roundups I have seen so far seem to focus on the leader of each division, which is a little shortsighted as the top few ranks shift around frequently (excluding some people who are #1 by several hundred points). To get a more complete look at the 'top player' population as a whole, I made the cutoff the top 8 for each platinum division.

Keep in mind that this data is now a few days old and will not reflect current standings perfectly (data from March 9th). It is also important to note that the sample consists of the first 8 divisions in Asia, the first 13 in Europe, and the first 16 in the US, despite some of these having more divisions. I don't consider the other divisions mature enough to matter yet, as a lot of them have people in the top 8 who still have ratings of 1000.

Finally, before I begin, I'd like to emphasize that this is meant to be fun to look at; how you interpret the data is up to you.

[image loading]

Not all add up to 100% due to rounding

This is a good starting point, it is the racial breakdown for each beta server. Protoss is definitely dominating the top of the ladder right now, but I suspect it is because toss was considered (and probably was) the best race to begin with, and we will see them lose ground in the coming weeks. It looks to me intuitively that the later created divisions have more non-protoss but I didn't run any hard analysis in these divisions.

It's interesting that US has a higher ratio of random players, but it is doubtful that it is telling of anything.

[image loading]

Here are the real meat and potatoes. It is pretty cool how close everything is, with most things hovering right around 63%. Nothing stands out in any big way, but there are a couple of spots that are worth mentioning.

USA seems to be the home to the best tosses, as their winrate is both higher than other races' within their region and also higher than other protoss players' in other regions. It seems that iNcontroL and IdrA's choice to pledge their allegiance to Aiur has swayed the statistics for their entire country (Smuft playing 450 games with nearly 80% of them won certainly doesn't hurt). The beginning of a new era? Only those from the future can know for sure.

In contrast, Asian zergs are the ones who appear to truly know what is what. Maybe they discovered some tricks with mutas tuat we don't have overseas yet, maybe they have a strong lineage of amateur zergs who are giving up on BW to follow their dreams in a new game. Maybe the real reason MuMyung is off SKT is because he is training a team of zergs in an underground sweatshop preparing for a conflict with North Korea. I don't have enough information to say, but it might be worth investigating.

Interestingly, Asia has the biggest disparity between races. It's the only server where the difference between their best race and worst race is nearly 10 points. With a huge percent of their highly ranked players choosing toss, it might just mean that ZvT hasn't quite been fleshed out or that zergs are really good at ZvP and terrans are overly bad at TvP.

Asia also has the lowest overall percentage, which I'd like to think confirms the common wisdom that in Asia the casual players aren't that much worse than the serious amateurs. Still, it's difficult to say with the limited sample size available.

The highest winrate in Europe is random, which is pretty cool, but as there are only 5 players sporting the R icon it means that the two of them who are performing the best (ret and MinD have about 75% ratios) go a long way towards bringing up the average.

All in all, I'd wager Blizzard has a more accurate way of quantifying this, and they are pretty pleased with the results. It is very impressive to achieve such symmetry within the top echelon of a game in the early stages of beta.

[image loading]

This is almost the same thing, but it shows us how the mystery point system rates the races/continents. Strangely enough, in Europe, the random players average a significantly lower point value than the other races, by over a hundred points (which seems significant but who knows with this system). Otherwise it's all rather even which I guess means the system is mostly working. We can say with confidence that the average "tournament qualifier" (as it is called in the interface) currently has 1700 points or more, isn't that neat?!

One last thing to mention is an incredible feat.

The player with the most games is Hyo of Asia with 845. This is especially impressive considering the numbers I'm working with from Asia are from about a day before EU/US. The highest on EU is Desis (788) while in the USA it is ReddoG (615).

Unsurprisingly, Asia as a whole seem to play more games. The average number of games played by a top player (those in the top 8) is a whopping 294 in Asia. With just under 3 weeks played, thats about 15 games a day which is no laughing matter. For comparison, the number in Europe is 246 and in US it's "only" 227. As HotBid put it:
HotBid: some of these asia server stats
HotBid: 555-220
HotBid: THATS why asia is best server lol
Last week Yoren found something pretty cool by looking at the win-rates of the top players. His conclusion is that the pack is getting much narrower. Time will tell if that is a continuing trend or if the beta is settling and truly hitting its stride.

Overall, do these numbers say anything significant? Probably not, but they're interesting to look at and fun to speculate about. Realistically there are way too many variables to track, the game is changing on a weekly basis after all, as are the popular strategies, people's perspectives, their chosen race, and maybe even the matchmaking system.

There is, of course, a much more controversial issue regarding play at the top of the ladder. The new battle.net system has made us a lot of promises, but has fallen a bit short for the aspect of the game we all deeply love: the competitive circuit.


Hot Topic: Competitive Play


Since the anouncement of SC2, Blizzard has told the world they are interested in keping the Brood War lineage alive by making its sequel the competitive RTS of the future. They went so far as to hire staff solely for the purpose of creating an internal e-sports (ahem-ESPORTS) team, which to my knowledge is an industry first.

For the past year the talk has been vague promises about how the new battle.net system will blow all anything we currently have out of the water. With the advent of the beta, we have some concrete info and a taste of what is to come. Right now there are two areas of concern.

Issue 1: No global rankings

Its highly annoying that the best comparison any one player has is merely to the people in his division, and the aggregate number of points awarded or taken by the system is also dependant on the division itself. When broken into groups, the number of "what if" variables is absolutely huge. Sure there are 8 people in the who are 'on top', but how are we to compare anyone in one division to someone in another? Sure, we know some people are ahead of people in their divisions, but what does that tell us? What about people who are in the middle of their leagues? How can we tell how they would do against each other? In a serious competitive setting we absolutely need a way to compare any one player in a direct manner to another - something other than "is top 8 of his league" and "is not top 8 of his league".

Its understandable to not want a gargantuan ladder ranking where people see themselves as ranked #14,678 in their region, but this division grouping doesn't cut it. Starcraft servers of the past have had a system of grade rankings, things like A through D which allows us to compare players of various skill levels quickly, easily, and without debate. A possible compromise would be to keep the division system, but make the points within each more straight forward. As of right now its not even possible to compare points across divisions, as the calculation takes into account relative levels of players within each grouping. Regardless, if SC2 wants to cater to the competitive circuit something of that calibur is a necessity.

Issue 2: No cross-server capabilities

Being able to compete with people around the world without hassle is one reason current BW is great. The recent twitter chat seems to say this is one feature that won't be available at launch. As GARIMTO said regarding the state of PvP, this is one step shy of a disaster. Being able to easily grab a 3v3 or 4v4 game will be an integral part of the game experience, this is one of the reasons the current scene is so tight knit across countries. With the community split between continents, not being able to do this effectively segregates the community.

For tournaments this makes all kinds of competition essentially impossible. For people to play worldwide they would effectively need to own (and have installed) 3 separate copies of the game. Tournaments as of right now are a way to bring people together, TSL had participants from 13 countries fight on a level playing field to decide who is the best outside the Korean scene. It is not only annoying for players who want to know where they stand, but for viewers who want to see their favorite players duke it out mano-a-mano to find out who comes out on top. Satchel Paige never threw a ball to Babe Ruth, and to this day there is endless speculation on who would have won on the baseball diamond. This absolutely needs to be a capability of the game at launch.

SC2 has a chance to fix one of our current problems in the BW community - that the Korean and Chinese scenes are outside the reach of anyone not living in those countries. The system in place right now is a bit of a step backwards, further dividing up communities when it is not needed.

All in all, its too early to truly judge, but the details we have are not promising.


This post was made by the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Coverage Team. For more of TL's coverage, please visit the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Beta Page.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
Daldus
Profile Joined March 2010
United States35 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 02:51:48
March 18 2010 02:51 GMT
#2
nice
some of those stats look to good to be true. maybe blizzard got extremely lucky.
Husky
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3362 Posts
March 18 2010 02:57 GMT
#3
Oh my god I LOVE STATS.

Rolling in my own happiness atm.

Thanks!
Commentaries: youtube.com/HuskyStarcraft
Nal_rAwr
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States2611 Posts
March 18 2010 02:59 GMT
#4
USA majors Z while ASIA major P???
Nony is Bonjwa
Gilgamesh33
Profile Joined February 2010
United States28 Posts
March 18 2010 02:59 GMT
#5
wow
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
March 18 2010 03:03 GMT
#6
Surprising it's this balanced in beta. I know war3 wasn't even close to this kind of a breakdown this far into its beta. Blizzard sees to be doing a really good job.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 03:07:09
March 18 2010 03:04 GMT
#7
I like racial profiling!

But yeah, "their own internal ESPORTS committee?" Wonder who the hell they're hiring for that position. They don't seem to be doing a very good job. It baffles me why blizz won't go out and look for very best talent for these areas of expertise instead of hiring employees (seemingly) not the best fit for the job. Finding proper talent isn't incredibly hard for a game that has over a decade legacy...

Too much reinventing of the wheel. This is like blizz's attempt at designing a hovercar fueled by bubble bath or someshit.
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Versita
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1032 Posts
March 18 2010 03:05 GMT
#8
nice read, well written. thanks!
CynanMachae
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Canada1459 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 03:51:31
March 18 2010 03:06 GMT
#9
I don't understand how the average winrate of all races isn't 50%.
Jang Yoon Chul hwaiting!
zomgzergrush
Profile Joined August 2008
United States923 Posts
March 18 2010 03:07 GMT
#10
On March 18 2010 12:06 CynanMachae wrote:
I don't understand how the average winrace of all races isn't 50%.


wondering that myself...
Bronze skipping straight to Diamond in 40 games retail release. Bnet 2.0 ladder really takes it's sweet time to think about that league placement.
Chairman Ray
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United States11903 Posts
March 18 2010 03:10 GMT
#11
If every race has >60% win rate, who's losing?
Bull-Demon
Profile Joined January 2003
United States582 Posts
March 18 2010 03:19 GMT
#12
On March 18 2010 12:10 Chairman Ray wrote:
If every race has >60% win rate, who's losing?


Its kinda of misleading since these numbers only take into account the top 8 of each division.

So the people losing are below the top 8.
~_~
MeruFM
Profile Joined February 2010
United States167 Posts
March 18 2010 03:19 GMT
#13
On March 18 2010 12:10 Chairman Ray wrote:
If every race has >60% win rate, who's losing?

That's what I'd like to know
oberon
Profile Joined May 2009
United States1320 Posts
March 18 2010 03:20 GMT
#14
"To get a more complete look at the 'top player' population as a whole, I made the cutoff the top 8 for each platinum division."

Hence the >50% winrates.

--oberon
Molybdenum
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States358 Posts
March 18 2010 03:22 GMT
#15
On March 18 2010 12:06 CynanMachae wrote:
I don't understand how the average winrace of all races isn't 50%.


The stats are for players at the tops of the divisions, the better players. They win most of their games and stay on top. The players with the losses are lower in the ladders and aren't up top where these statistics come from.

Very interesting, thanks for putting that together. The balance is pretty good, T is a little behind in players, I personally don't like how terran is now (bring back mech...), so maybe we'll see some tweaks to their game play style, rather than balancing, to draw in more players?
dhasenan
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1 Post
March 18 2010 03:22 GMT
#16
On March 18 2010 12:10 Chairman Ray wrote:
If every race has >60% win rate, who's losing?


A PvP match will always count as a Protoss victory. Likewise with TvT and ZvZ. So we expect the average win rate for each race to be 50% + 0.5 * percentage of people playing that race.

For example, if only 10% of people played Zerg, we'd expect a 55% win rate for Zergs, if everything were perfectly balanced and Zerg players were equally skilled in comparison with their Terran and Protoss counterparts.
DamHesRolling
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2 Posts
March 18 2010 03:32 GMT
#17
If people would read the article it says at the begining that the stats were taking from the top players =D Obviously the top players will have stats above 50%.

very interesting! the lack of intercontinental play concerns me though. you would think that would be a no brainer for Blizzard! but then again, it was the same way with WC3...
HydroZ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States34 Posts
March 18 2010 03:49 GMT
#18
Nice post.
No cross-server functionality is a gripe of mine as well, and I'm not sure how, with the so-called esports analysts giving them advice, Blizzard managed to overlook how essential it is for a competitive gaming community to be able to pit these players against each other.
CynanMachae
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Canada1459 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-18 03:52:53
March 18 2010 03:52 GMT
#19
Ah top 8 only, make sense lol.

So yea, thanks for that, pretty interesting
Jang Yoon Chul hwaiting!
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
March 18 2010 04:02 GMT
#20
I find it interesting that almost everyone is against "segregating" the continents to their own server clusters, but that also almost everyone is for localizing the individual divisions down to even cities.

Opening up cross-server capabilities for custom games is great, but to think for one second that it'd be good for the ladder is just a little ridiculous to me.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL 21
20:00
ProLeague - RO32 Group B
spx vs rasowy
HBO vs KameZerg
Cross vs Razz
dxtr13 vs ZZZero
ZZZero.O125
LiquipediaDiscussion
LAN Event
15:00
Stellar Fest: Day 3
Clem vs ZounLIVE!
ComeBackTV 1473
UrsaTVCanada731
IndyStarCraft 358
EnkiAlexander 83
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
IndyStarCraft 358
ProTech128
CosmosSc2 70
Railgan 69
ForJumy 14
StarCraft: Brood War
White-Ra 237
ZZZero.O 125
Backho 72
Dota 2
LuMiX1
Counter-Strike
PGG 71
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox919
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu394
Other Games
Grubby3859
FrodaN1602
B2W.Neo699
ceh9232
mouzStarbuck188
Sick168
Mew2King82
ArmadaUGS65
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick957
StarCraft 2
angryscii 12
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 23 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 24
• davetesta23
• Adnapsc2 16
• Reevou 12
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach15
• HerbMon 14
• Michael_bg 3
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• Ler102
• Noizen53
• lizZardDota243
League of Legends
• imaqtpie1953
Other Games
• WagamamaTV482
• Shiphtur368
Upcoming Events
OSC
2h 34m
ReBellioN vs HiGhDrA
Shameless vs Demi
LetaleX vs Mute
Percival vs TBD
OSC
12h 34m
Wardi Open
15h 34m
Wardi Open
19h 34m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
WardiTV Korean Royale
1d 15h
Replay Cast
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Classic vs Solar
herO vs Cure
Reynor vs GuMiho
ByuN vs ShoWTimE
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
3 days
The PondCast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Solar vs Zoun
MaxPax vs Bunny
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Classic vs Creator
Cure vs TriGGeR
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs Gerald
ByuN vs SHIN
Kung Fu Cup
5 days
BSL 21
5 days
Tarson vs Julia
Doodle vs OldBoy
eOnzErG vs WolFix
StRyKeR vs Aeternum
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs sOs
Maru vs Ryung
Kung Fu Cup
6 days
WardiTV Korean Royale
6 days
BSL 21
6 days
JDConan vs Semih
Dragon vs Dienmax
Tech vs NewOcean
TerrOr vs Artosis
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-11-07
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
SOOP Univ League 2025
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Stellar Fest: Constellation Cup
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual

Upcoming

SLON Tour Season 2
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
META Madness #9
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.