• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 15:44
CEST 21:44
KST 04:44
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Team TLMC #5 - Finalists & Open Tournaments0[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt2: Turbulence10Classic Games #3: Rogue vs Serral at BlizzCon9[ASL20] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Ascent10Maestros of the Game: Week 1/Play-in Preview12
Community News
BSL 2025 Warsaw LAN + Legends Showmatch0Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups4WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments1SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia8Weekly Cups (Sept 1-7): MaxPax rebounds & Clem saga continues29
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.15 PTR Patch Notes #1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Weekly Cups (Sept 8-14): herO & MaxPax split cups Team Liquid Map Contest #21 - Presented by Monster Energy SpeCial on The Tasteless Podcast
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series Maestros of The Game—$20k event w/ live finals in Paris Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia WardiTV TL Team Map Contest #5 Tournaments
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 491 Night Drive Mutation # 490 Masters of Midnight Mutation # 489 Bannable Offense Mutation # 488 What Goes Around
Brood War
General
ASL20 General Discussion Soulkey on ASL S20 BW General Discussion ASL TICKET LIVE help! :D NaDa's Body
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [ASL20] Ro16 Group D [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL20] Ro16 Group C
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Muta micro map competition Fighting Spirit mining rates [G] Mineral Boosting
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Borderlands 3 Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine UK Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread High temperatures on bridge(s)
TL Community
BarCraft in Tokyo Japan for ASL Season5 Final The Automated Ban List
Blogs
i'm really bored guys
Peanutsc
I <=> 9
KrillinFromwales
The Personality of a Spender…
TrAiDoS
A very expensive lesson on ma…
Garnet
hello world
radishsoup
Lemme tell you a thing o…
JoinTheRain
RTS Design in Hypercoven
a11
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1686 users

[SC2B] A Shot In The Dark

Forum Index > News
123 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All

[SC2B] A Shot In The Dark

Text byLiquid`Nazgul
March 9th, 2010 14:14 GMT

It’s been nearly 3 weeks since I played my first game on battle.net and lots of things have happened since. Blizzard came out with three patches and strategies were evolving on a daily basis. In the first week of ladder the matchmaking seemed intent on finding opponents quickly rather than appropriately and high platinums were often matched up with players of lower rankings resulting in a lot of +2 and -30 games with not too much to learn from. In one of the patches, I don’t exactly know which one since I haven’t seen Blizzard make a statement about this at all, it seemed things changed and the search now often takes up to a few minutes. But when it’s done it will have found an opponent for you around your own level. I can’t stress enough how important this is for testing as tons of people are laddering to improve nowhere is the balance tested better than at the highest levels.

Before Garimto even made a blog post, I was sitting on MSN when Smuft brought up the possibility of a warp-gate strategy he was using. We brainstormed a little bit and it didn’t take long before people were dying to it left and right at the Platinum ranks. Some took their losses better than others but in the end it should be your goal to find strategies that win you the game. That should be your goal when playing and it should be your goal when Beta testing so that in their game-statistics Blizzard can find what is being used, what works and what doesn’t work.

Auto-proxy
I’ll use this opportunity to address a recent PvP trend. As most of you following the Beta have noticed a warp-gate rush has been popularized and is seemingly unstoppable. It was after the post about Garimto’s blog and the recent PlayXP and Zotac tournaments that it really became the norm. Before this some people used it effectively but for the most part people didn’t know about it. Seeing it in high level play at these tournaments and be so successful quickly spread the strategy like a virus throughout the ladder. You can’t find a game at Platinum anymore where the game doesn’t revolve around warp-gate rushing. There is an instant-win counter to it and that’s proxy gating. This leads to some hilarious games where both guys will be proxy gating trying to out-micro each other in the middle of the map. I’m having fun with the way PvP is right now because short as it may be, as the strategy is still new it feels very dynamic, high pressure and you absolutely cannot make mistakes. At the same time it is clear that this is no way for PvP to be long-term. No one wants to solely be proxy gating and warp-gate rushing for the rest of their SC careers.

[image loading]

Two Protoss engage in the ancient ritual of here-we-go-round-the-mulberry-bush.

So far it seems no counter has been found that allows you to tech without dying. Most likely this will never be found either. If you are thinking “I wish these guys would just stfu and look for counters instead of complaining” you are in the wrong newspost. I won’t say it’s impossible to counter properly because SC is still a dynamic game and it would be foolish to think I have gotten to the bottom of it. However the time-span and unit combination at which this strategy is happening is so early in the game that your options are limited. Most good players now have a solid understanding of the earliest moments in the game and no one has been able to come up with a realistic counter that is not proxy gating. If Blizzard takes these games and opinions as a reason to change something they really need to pull something new out of their wizard hat, as warp-gates are so important for Protoss in the other matchups that you can’t just take them out of the game or drastically change something about their tech-route and timing. It might be Blizzard have to come up with some ‘dumb’ rule that allows them to take care of this problem for PvP but leave the other matchups the way they want them to be. Throughout the many slightly-different topics on this issue there have been many solutions that might work.

1) When two enemy pylon fields meet the warp function ceases to work.
2) The further away from the Nexus the longer your warp-in takes.
3) Warp-gates higher in tech.

I probably missed a few, but these stuck out more than others. In the first situation whenever you build a pylon in someone’s base he can just build one next to it; cancelling the warp-in while the pylon of the defender completes. This would have little implications for the matchup as a whole since you can still warp-in stuff mid-game to almost any spot on the map. If anything the slight implication of building a pylon next to your opponents somewhere in the middle of the game sounds like strategic fun to me.

The second one speaks for itself. It would have a slight implication for other matchups as your units get to places to defend slower, however if it’s say a max of 10 seconds delay to do it all the way in your opponents base, which is huge for a rush, it would be somewhere between 0-10 for most mid-game locations. It is still a large advantage compared to actually walking to the spot.

The last one feels like it is going to have implications for all the matchups throughout. It is more risky and would actually in itself possibly need weeks for a thorough test.

Although this post was originally about these next two issues, the proxy gate discussion just had to be brought up, especially in light of the recent PvPs I played. Anyway, let's jump right in and look at the main focus of this post - the problem with fighting units auto-targeting workers in battle, and the fact that with vision units shoot up a choke with 100% damage.

In every great RTS you need to have a balance between economy, rushing and teching. We all know this and it’s nothing new. Currently the way it is in SC2 is that because your high ground is barely an advantage, and your workers get slaughtered when defending (except for scvs somewhat because they’re mighty strong), games are often more about massing than teching.

Zen and the Art of Defense
The defenders advantage exists so that a battle (both in-game and mind) between rushing and teching is created with both routes being optional. Currently the defenders advantage is not playing a big enough role. Once Zerglings or Zealots get into your base you're doomed and no amount of workers will help you overcome the numbers. People need to be able to fight for their tech and economic advantages with defense, while others try to do damage to an opponent’s economy to offset the initial investment of their rush. Both of these options need to be viable in order to enlarge the creative spectrum of the game.

[image loading]

Often this...

The workers being auto-target while attacking will have you end up with very few of them if you don’t match his combat units in numbers when fighting. Basically if units get into your base you’re screwed, which is also part of the reason why the warp-gate rush is so strong. They will eat your peons alive and leave nothing behind.

[image loading]

Results in this.

I’m trying to think of an advantage of workers becoming auto-targets in battle. The only thing it does is quickly sway a game in the favor of those entering the opponent’s base. It doesn’t add anything to the game except making mass/rushing your opponent more viable and end games more quickly where you can hold off attacks in other games. By doing this the balance between defense and offense feels disturbed and moves the game towards the favor of the offensive player in matchups where a rush might get you into your opponents main. To counter this you need units; which in turn leads to a game that promotes early and mid-game massing over strategy. I’ve asked around among top players for their opinion on this and so far I haven’t found a single player who was in favor of keeping this auto-targeting of workers in the game. It could be we are all nostalgic and need to look at SC2 as if it’s a new game as some of you will no doubt yell in this thread, or it could be that there is actually a valid point to be made.

A Moral Highground
The other one is doing damage to high ground as long as you have vision. If you are rushing an opponent you will obviously have vision of his high ground and do 100% damage. This negates the effect you want the chokes to have. On the other hand if you have a mass of units dropped on your cliff: tanks, marines, maybe a few vikings, it is very hard to get vision of this. If you can't see units that are firing at you, how do you counter? Let's look at a game from the PlayXP invitational between hyo and kkong. With the Colossus killed, all that stands in the way of complete cliff domination is one scan and obs snipe. In the game itself it never happens, but it's easily foreseeable in future TvP cliff drops.

[image loading]

Suddenly, the entire Protoss army is dependant on an obs and a colossus.

With 100% hits on vision, the games get pushed to extremes; chokes become less of a factor when rushing (it's not hard to get vision of a choke early game) and cliffs become immensely strong. Basically, it's all or nothing, and this becomes really hard to balance, especially when it comes to maps. If cliffs on LT were tough in Broodwar, in SC2, they're golden ground - get there, setup and you literally cant be budged.

So, what am I saying? Both rushing, attacking and cliff drops need to be viable, but tech, defending and actually maintaining your expansion need to be viable as well so it becomes a battle of who does what better and smarter. A solution to this could be just have units do X% less damage or miss X% of the time when shooting up the high-ground and let units that are being fired at from a cliff have vision of the unit that is hitting it. These simple fixes will go a long way in making cliffs and chokes serve their purpose better and place more emphasis on good reaction time, positioning and micro. In fact, just so we're clear about the details, here's a TL stats nerd with a number crunch.

Miss Chance and Damage Reduction
By Daigomi

There's been a lot of debate about whether miss chance or damage reduction should be used to improve the defender's advantage. Many people have said that they work out the same way, and as such it doesn't really matter. This is not exactly true, as the following example shows:

Scenario 1: A tank does 35 damage a shot, marines have 40hp.

Normal: Two shots kill a marine.

50% miss: Four shots kill a marine (on average).
50% less damage: Three shots kill a marine (17.5 * 3 = 52.5).

33% miss: Three shots kill a marine (on average).
33% less damage: Two shots kill a marine (23 * 2 = 46).

Thus, in this scenario it takes fewer shots to kill the unit than the damage reduction would imply.

Damage thus scales linearly with miss (if units hit half the time, they will need to hit twice as often) while damage does not scale linearly with damage reduction (if units hit for half as much, they will not need to hit twice as often). This does not mean that one system is inherently better than the other one. What it does mean, however, is that it is easier to balance misses than it is to balance damage reduction.

Try it out, Blizzard!
Having played this game for a few weeks, I strongly believe that fixing these three things will greatly improve the reach and longevity of the game. Of course, you don't just need to take my word for it - read TL, read other sites, and see what top players have to say. Based on the many, many discussions I have had over the past few weeks, 9/10 dentists agree - we need solutions for these problems.

So, over to you, Blizzard. This is the Beta afterall, so why not just change it and see if it improves the quality of the game? If it doesn’t you can always go back to the way it was, but I think you will see it does.


Resources
- Liquid`Nazgul PvP replay pack



This post was made by the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Coverage Team. For more of TL's coverage, please visit the Team Liquid Starcraft 2 Beta Page.
Facebook Twitter Reddit
Administrator
ZenDeX
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
Philippines2916 Posts
March 09 2010 14:22 GMT
#2
I hope the next patch addresses all of these.
1a2a3aPro
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada227 Posts
March 09 2010 14:23 GMT
#3
If I new I could have gotten first reply, I wouldn't have read it first lol.

Can't really comment, don't have a beta key.
leftykill
Profile Joined October 2009
United States120 Posts
March 09 2010 14:26 GMT
#4
great read
diehilde
Profile Joined September 2008
Germany1596 Posts
March 09 2010 14:28 GMT
#5
ive seen plenty of good players abusing the auto target worker mechanic in fights by bringing a cpl of scvs in big fights and abusing the fact that the ai targets workers with a-click. I think it not only takes away the defenders advantage, but it can also be used offensively to an extent. Then again, I agree with the cliff mechanics. What really is key imo though is bnet delay, muta stacking, right click functionality and a way to move your units in formation, forcing them to NOT clump like they always do.
Savior: "I will cheat everyone again in SC2!" - SCII Beta Tester
Skeggaba
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Korea (South)1556 Posts
March 09 2010 14:29 GMT
#6
Great post - i have no idea what you are talking about except the warp pylon stuff (got rushed as zerg and had NO trouble fending it off, but thats another story) - still trying to figure the game out
Bisu[about JD]=I was scared (laughs). The force emanating from his facial expression was so manly that I was even a little jealous.
Salteador Neo
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Andorra5591 Posts
March 09 2010 14:31 GMT
#7
On March 09 2010 23:22 lolaloc wrote:
I hope the next patch addresses all of these.


This, and great read :D
Revolutionist fan
pshych0
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
274 Posts
March 09 2010 14:34 GMT
#8
great read, and i think the chance to miss when shooting uphill is really needed. It's been here in sc1 and war3, why exactly have they removed it in SC2?
shit happens
s.a.y
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Croatia3840 Posts
March 09 2010 14:52 GMT
#9
can they really fix the cliff thing that easy?

i can understand they can change priority of attacking units, but nerfing up the cliff damage sounds like a huge edit in the game itself.
I am not good with quotes
Bright]
Profile Joined March 2010
United States118 Posts
March 09 2010 14:54 GMT
#10
Great critique. I don't have the beta, but things like these definitely need to be discussed!

I wish I could submit this post to Blizzard in it's entirety! (I'm sure you have though!)
Track 1
Niten
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States598 Posts
March 09 2010 15:04 GMT
#11
Amazing read. This kind of comprehensive summary with suggestions (not bashing) is why I love TL!
Korra: "Ok, I know that I'm not good at emotions, but that's what Tenzin's gonna teach me, right? He's gonna teach me to be happy and gentle and spiritual, and the rest of that bullsh**t."
Yammiez
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada186 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-09 15:10:19
March 09 2010 15:09 GMT
#12
I'm still in the new-er golden league where the PvP isn't yet tainted with the crazy warp gate rush. I would pull strategies i remember from watching the streams from TL to go stalkers then colossus and what not, but as fun as this warp gate strat is, it'll sure get boring in a couple of days. PvP is he new ZvZ? Also. Amazing Read! I love TL for stuff like this.
Smash fear, learn anything; except for spiders
UbiNax
Profile Joined February 2010
Denmark381 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-09 15:16:22
March 09 2010 15:14 GMT
#13
i agree with most of the stuff, but i honestly dont know about the Cliff/LOS, i think its great that you need visibility to hit highgound,
in WC3 they have both Miss and LOS when you hit uphill, and i love it! hehe

but who knows i might change my mind when i get a key " if i get one hehe "
luckybeni2
Profile Joined October 2008
Germany1065 Posts
March 09 2010 15:14 GMT
#14
On March 09 2010 23:29 Skeggaba wrote:
Great post - i have no idea what you are talking about except the warp pylon stuff (got rushed as zerg and had NO trouble fending it off, but thats another story) - still trying to figure the game out

The problem of the warp rush is in the matchup pvp
edahl
Profile Joined February 2008
Norway483 Posts
March 09 2010 15:17 GMT
#15
Schweet. I agree with every point.
OminouS
Profile Joined February 2010
Sweden1343 Posts
March 09 2010 15:20 GMT
#16
Really good post. I've been talking to some of my friends and I whined 100 times about the non existing miss chance, the PvP and the autotargeting workers.

This post covered 3 of the 4 major concerns I have about the game.
On the 6th day JF made Reavers and on the 7th day JF put his opponent to rest
asdfTT123
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States989 Posts
March 09 2010 15:24 GMT
#17
Good read. As a P player, I could not agree any more with any of these points.

The one that rages me the most is the advantage a T can have when attacking from a cliff (i.e. the nat at LT and Kulas) and being able to do absolutely nothing about it. I've played a few inferior T players who simply massed tanks and MMM while turtling and then coming out with a huge army, only to be dropped on my cliff that ended up raping my econ or my entire army if it got to close.

I also love the concept of Warp Gates but it needs to be fixed for the sake of PvP.
n.Die_Jaedong <3
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
March 09 2010 15:30 GMT
#18
I agree that there probably isn't a counter to the early scout proxy pylon warp gate rush. It circumvents all the disadvantages you'd normally associate with getting very early units into your opponent's base.

There are going to be both real and preceived balance issues in the beta and while it's noble to refuse calling things imbalanced and trying to find a counter to everything we need to accept that there can mechanics in the game that simply aren't balanced.
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24701 Posts
March 09 2010 15:34 GMT
#19
Can you explain how 50% miss means 4 hits to kill the marine?
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Leon-bw
Profile Joined November 2006
France44 Posts
March 09 2010 15:38 GMT
#20
I agree with most of the points though I would argue about two points:

1) On Auto-target on miners, in my opinion, it kinda compensates the improved AI and overall movement capability of miners which also benefit from auto-surround without any effort in terms of micro-management.
Bringin back the same flawed AI from BW for unit targeting AND keeping the improved AI for movement / surround will tip the balance the other way with a much stronger defense to the point where attacking a base may not be viable without having already won a major battle or a significant advantage (or just postpone the initial skirmish around a base until miners are not relevant anymore due to splash or size of army) which I think is just as bad as giving advantage to the agressor

2) On vision over choke, I think this is just a matter of expressing your opinion which may be slightly adjusted. By reading the article it looks as if having no penalty due to height for choke attack removes the value of a choke. Well to be exact, choke still have the same value and there are choke without any height difference which also bring an advantage just because they provide opportunities for optimal unit placement against disorganised unit placement. That alone is enough of an advantage in my opinion in terms of defensive (or containing which may be considered aggressive) measures

Both ideas contribute to the fact that I think it is still too early to say that rush / massing early game is too strong and therefore defensive measures should be more powerful. The defensor still has an advantage thanks to his miners, to his choke (most of the time) and to its shorter rally time.

Sure the game may be broken for PvP but major changes around defense / offense should not be made based on this only set-up (which I'm sure was not your intention anyway)

Final word will be on your conclusion which is "test it and see how it works", I really can't be more in line with you, theorycraft is nice, experience is better
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 14h 16m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 515
UpATreeSC 299
SteadfastSC 216
IndyStarCraft 119
NeuroSwarm 60
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 17649
Dewaltoss 139
Larva 79
Aegong 31
scan(afreeca) 25
Sexy 20
Dota 2
Fuzer 198
Counter-Strike
flusha148
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King47
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu395
Other Games
FrodaN1866
Sick1841
summit1g1308
fl0m1075
Beastyqt555
mouzStarbuck249
ToD159
C9.Mang0143
Trikslyr60
MindelVK15
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 19 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta19
• Reevou 4
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Migwel
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4803
• WagamamaTV773
• Noizen60
League of Legends
• Doublelift1338
• TFBlade845
Other Games
• imaqtpie581
• Shiphtur244
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
14h 16m
Zoun vs Classic
Map Test Tournament
15h 16m
Korean StarCraft League
1d 7h
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
1d 12h
RSL Revival
1d 14h
Reynor vs Cure
BSL Open LAN 2025 - War…
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
Online Event
2 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
LiuLi Cup
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-09-10
Chzzk MurlocKing SC1 vs SC2 Cup #2
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 20 Team Wars
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 3
BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
LASL Season 20
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1

Upcoming

2025 Chongqing Offline CUP
BSL World Championship of Poland 2025
IPSL Winter 2025-26
BSL Season 21
SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL 21 Team A
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
EC S1
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.