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[SC2B] A Shot In The Dark - Page 4

Forum Index > News
123 CommentsPost a Reply
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GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
March 09 2010 19:43 GMT
#61
the pvp warpgate strategy is really really good, with no real viable counter. the proxy gates are highly entertaining. Solution? Island maps ^^

Seriously though, Blizzard is going to need to figure something out. I like the idea of making stalkers better, because I think that it would encourge more micro in all of the matchups.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
lossofmercy
Profile Joined March 2010
United States29 Posts
March 09 2010 19:43 GMT
#62
Question: In Starcraft, is a miss considered a not fire or is it calculated like units under a dark swarm (splash still hits) or does it simply not fire 33% of the time? If it splashes/the shot is just set off by a distance, then people would have to recalculate the probability as firing in the middle still guarantees hits.
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
March 09 2010 20:07 GMT
#63
Thanks for the great read, Nazgul. I agree with you 100% about the no-miss high ground policy... Why do they even have mains situated on high ground then. It seems that small walls would do the same at this point. Oh well, I hope Blizzard reads this and fixes that problem.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
MaestroSC
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2073 Posts
March 09 2010 20:10 GMT
#64
On March 10 2010 00:09 Yammiez wrote:
I'm still in the new-er golden league where the PvP isn't yet tainted with the crazy warp gate rush. I would pull strategies i remember from watching the streams from TL to go stalkers then colossus and what not, but as fun as this warp gate strat is, it'll sure get boring in a couple of days. PvP is he new ZvZ? Also. Amazing Read! I love TL for stuff like this.


I liked ZvZ and on the contrary am bored to death by this warpgate rush. ZvZ was more a game of micro and had the possibility of lasting more then 5-7 minutes. PvP is just currently the most boring game to watch, i cant imagine a crowd cheering "woo! look at those 4 zealots fight!!" -_-"
crate
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2474 Posts
March 09 2010 20:22 GMT
#65
Worker auto-targeting makes sense to me if you're dealing with zealots vs zealots + workers and the workers are attacking. If you a-move, the workers have more dps per hp, so if you target them you kill them quickly and thus end up taking less total damage -> better chance of winning the battle. I don't see a problem with this. Attacking zealots and ignoring the probes when both are attacking you is just bad AI.

Of course, I don't really know what "worker auto-targeting" means. If it means your zealots a-moved near a mineral line attack workers even when the workers aren't attacking back while a zealot is, that seems a bit ridiculous to me and I would agree it should change. If it auto-targets drones before zerglings that seems weird to me too because the zerglings are the better target in terms of winning the battle. But if my understanding is correct then I think this is an improvement, not a problem.

I fully agree about high ground mechanics being broken and about PvP being a really dumb matchup though.
We did. You did. Yes we can. No. || http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/crate.html || twitch.tv/crate3333
enzym
Profile Joined January 2010
Germany1034 Posts
March 09 2010 20:47 GMT
#66
warpgates are fine in pvp. theres absolutely no reason why you should be able to tech while the other player is zealot rushing you. theres no imbalance either, since its mirror matchup. you can just 3warpgate next to your nex and dont take any damage, but if you win the micro encounter you can kill his pylons.

its an exciting matchup where a unit counts as much as in zvz. leave it be. didnt bother reading the other stuff.
"I fart a lot, often on my gf in bed, then we roll around laughing for 5 mins choking in gas." — exog // "…be'master, the art of reflection. If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" — S. T. Coleridge
son1dow
Profile Joined May 2009
Lithuania322 Posts
March 09 2010 20:51 GMT
#67
Easier to balance or not, I don't care. I don't want such randomness [misses] in the game, and I would expect a lot of people to, too. Please, Blizzard, don't do this :\
Play more Quake.
Jyxz
Profile Joined November 2009
United States117 Posts
March 09 2010 21:14 GMT
#68
On March 10 2010 00:14 luckybeni2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2010 23:29 Skeggaba wrote:
Great post - i have no idea what you are talking about except the warp pylon stuff (got rushed as zerg and had NO trouble fending it off, but thats another story) - still trying to figure the game out

The problem of the warp rush is in the matchup pvp


Also Zerg is probably over powered.
This is Jimmy
Jyxz
Profile Joined November 2009
United States117 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-09 21:18:00
March 09 2010 21:16 GMT
#69
On March 10 2010 05:47 enzym wrote:
warpgates are fine in pvp. theres absolutely no reason why you should be able to tech while the other player is zealot rushing you. theres no imbalance either, since its mirror matchup. you can just 3warpgate next to your nex and dont take any damage, but if you win the micro encounter you can kill his pylons.

its an exciting matchup where a unit counts as much as in zvz. leave it be. didnt bother reading the other stuff.


Actually you are 100% wrong, because of the auto focus workers if you do the same strat in your own base you just lost the game. Trust me I've tried.


Edit: I think that they should certainly do a minor advantage for being on a hill, however I think the reason they haven't is because there are many maps you are not on a hill which would result in making those maps unbalanced: correct me if I am wrong.
This is Jimmy
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7801 Posts
March 09 2010 21:18 GMT
#70
Dude what the eff with people saying "plz no randomness."

How many times have you watched a SCBW match and shouted "omg come on how lucky can you get?! He totally got jewed by fighting from the low ground!! how lame!!" Seriously, I've never seen high ground "luck" appear broken in BW. If you attack up hill and lose, it's not luck, you're just dumb for fighting a battle from the low ground without taking into account high ground advantage. Low ground has a disadvantage in battle, it just makes sense.

How does damage reduction make sense? Does a bullet hurt 30% less if you get shot from low ground IRL? If you get hit, it doesn't matter if it's from low or high ground, the damage is the same. Low ground miss % makes more sense strategically because IRL that is the disadvantage of low ground. High ground has better vision and an easier time picking out targets... low ground has more problems to deal with and thus has a lower % of hitting their targets.

And before anyone with 18 posts says "hurp durp are warp gates and aliens IRL? nothing has to be realistic", I'm just saying strategically the game is much more interesting if low ground has a miss % instead of a set damage reduction. The game is deeper and battles will plays out more as it should, where high ground is just one aspect of "advantage" in an encounter. A set damage reduction is really shallow and like Chill alluded to once, makes the game easier to fully comprehend. Attacking from the low ground should be a risk. When you know "ok im fighting with 30% damage reduction but I know how much stuff he has with my obs so I know I'll win the fight regardless of the ramp and wall in" it's not a question anymore. Attacking from the low ground should be a choice.. by making the damage reduced you take away that choice because people will always know when it's right to engage from the low ground and when it's wrong. Which is boring and shallow IMO. And less realistic in a battle.

TLDR: Miss % is going to make the game deeper and more interesting than a flat damage reduction from the low ground
Smurfz
Profile Joined May 2008
United States327 Posts
March 09 2010 21:24 GMT
#71
Yep, all three of these things need to change one way or the other.

I'd prefer damage % decrease over chance to miss. Honestly I'd be fine with either though. Better than the current cliff mechanics either way.
InToTheWannaB
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4770 Posts
March 09 2010 21:25 GMT
#72
In PvP if they just made the Stalker do bonus damage to light units rather then armored do you guys think that may help? Then you can dance stalkers around and take pot shots at the zealots and get a critical mass of them. If they do better vs light units too that will help vs muta and M&ms in TvT. Besides having stalkers do extra damage vs armored seems like it steps on the the roll of the imortal alot.
When the spirit is not altogether slain, great loss teaches men and women to desire greatly, both for themselves and for others.
Comeh
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States18918 Posts
March 09 2010 21:55 GMT
#73
Although a lot of these issues worry me (obviously pvp), it also gives me a lot of hope - we are identifying severe problems in match-ups relatively quickly, and hopefully helping balance the game. I imagine as time goes on, we can do a pretty decent job to make sc2 into a great game :D. (and of course, there are always post-release patches )
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Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
March 09 2010 22:03 GMT
#74
Best beta article yet. I suspect the majority of TL agrees with each of these critiques, so hopefully Blizzard is aware that someone thinks these things are problems. They should all be pretty easy to change/fix from what I can tell so that is great news.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
tehSchoolBus
Profile Joined March 2010
United States2 Posts
March 09 2010 22:08 GMT
#75
Actually, marines have 45 hp in Starcraft 2.

But I think that the only thing that needs to actually be changed at this point is spellcasting. By allowing players to spellcast where they cannot see (but obviously within the spellcaster unit's range) you would open up opportunities to address the no LOS w/cliffs problem. Terran would be able to launch nukes on cliff units, as well as EMPs against toss to make units easier to clean up real fast after being scanned. Protoss would be able to use psionic storm. Zerg would be able to spawn infested terran on the cliff with infestors, giving temporary LOS.

After this, then we could see how players make tactical changes to deal with these situations. So far I like how things work though. As day[9] says, SC2 is really about being on the offensive and is brutal to those who do not take advantage of everything they can.
The Chinese say The leading goose gets shot down. The Japanese say The nail that sticks out gets hammered back in.
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
March 09 2010 22:31 GMT
#76
I love it when problems are not only pointed out in a good way, but solutions are proposed along with it. Good solutions.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
March 09 2010 22:42 GMT
#77
Excellent! I really hope this gets to Blizzard!
Bosko
Profile Joined February 2010
United States155 Posts
March 09 2010 22:48 GMT
#78
"With 100% hits on vision, the games get pushed to extremes; chokes become less of a factor when rushing (it's not hard to get vision of a choke early game) and cliffs become immensely strong. "

It's like high ground is terrible and amazing at the same time. It doesn't sound right but when I'm playing I feel the same way.
synapse
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
China13814 Posts
March 09 2010 23:14 GMT
#79
Pylon overlap => no warp could yield some hilarious games... imagine someone floating that sneaks a probe into opponent's base during a big battle... xD

Personally, I think that both %miss and damage reduction are great ideas... new mechanics for a new game after all.
:)
Rucky
Profile Joined February 2008
United States717 Posts
March 09 2010 23:23 GMT
#80
I don't really have a problem with units attacking from highground aren't revealed because it seems logical. Relying on an observer for cliff battles are new to the game, but the concept of relying on observers is not, so there is no problem there. It'll be more micro intensive to protect your observers and to use it to give you just enough vision of the cliff, not right on top of their army. you at least hear the sound of the unit attacks so you can deduce what is attacking.

100% hits with vision affects three components of the game. Don't get confused, don't mix them up, don't think just because it seems probable on one means it should be implemented.

There's CHOKES, CLIFFS and HIGHGROUNDS!
Chokes and Cliffs already provide advantages so the 100% hit doesn't hurt the defenders advantage of those locations as much. For highground battles, with 100% hit, the whole component of the game disappears. Positioning of highground is no longer advantageous for w/e reasons (attacking, defending, holding key spots) The entire map would be flat and that will lead to boring games of stronger army attacking weaker army. There's no high ground to retreat to. This might be why people see the trend of the game is that way. The person with stronger larger army should not always win. They should gain map control and that leads on and on to other tangents. Main thing is it all starts with the positional advantage of highground.

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