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The Lie of Capitalism and Globalization

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StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 19:32 GMT
#1
It's a provocative title I know. But it's exactly what I want to debate. FIERCELY.

To start things off I'd like to open with the latest address by President Sarkozy of France:
Globalization Got Out of Control

Now, the way I see it, what's currently taught in economics and finance classes in America is this concept of globalization, free market, capitalism, and less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity.

I want to go ahead and say that's crap.

First, one of the central tenets of modern capitalism is this concept that the "free" market leads to benefit for everyone. They think that things naturally move to an equilibrium in demand/supply/price if left alone. The rationale for this is that people, with enough info, are perfectly rational beings that make the best choices.

The problem with this theory is it doesn't account for the destructiveness of monopolies. In business, anytime a group has either grown or merged into a large enough economic body, they can start to implement destructive strategies like dumping a ton of their products at a very cheap price onto a foreign market and wrecking the local competition. This is validated by capitalism and the free market because this is merely a strategy to increase market share, and if they have the resources to engage in such an act, then they have every right to.

Over the span of a few years, this group demolishes the local competition and creates a monopoly. Then they jack up the prices a ton and win back all the profits they gave up with this strategy. Except once they've recouped their investment, they continue to do it perpetually. This is a win-lose scenario. Yet, it's an example of what happens on the "free" market. This doesn't lead to constant competition and cheaper prices/higher quality for everyone. This leads to a stagnant market where one giant is in control and sells at exorbitant prices because they are the controllers of all supply.

In capitalism, it's theorized that the only way to combat this is for another giant group to emerge. Yet, this sort of competition doesn't help at all. While the two giants are growing, they experience economies of scale and their efficiency increases. Yet, once they reach a certain size, they start to experience the DISeconomies of scale from being too bloated. But they have to continue this arms race, because if they try to scale back, the other one will have the advantage in buying power for that short window of time and can steal more market share, thus perpetuating an advantage until the guy who stepped back first is destroyed.

This creates an effect where giants are constantly forced to grow bigger to compete, even though in the long run it leads to a net loss in efficiency. This is what the free market creates.

The problems with this are obvious. This is why countries have effected protectionist policies to defend against these sorts of aggressive economic strategies. Then you no longer have a free market. It becomes mixed. Our world is full of mixed economies.

The last 30 years of economics in the USA and the world, is a constant attempt to try to bring down these protectionist strategies on the belief that free market was more efficient and beneficial for all. Peep the giant economic collapse we just had. It's pretty obvious to everyone now that this free market liberalization was a horrible idea. It destroyed local industries, it gutted nations, it destroyed whole swathes of industry in nations, and all it really did was lower the retail prices of goods.

What use are lower prices when you don't have a job?

That's the problem with the concept of free market. It's too focused on price of goods as a barometer for efficiency. It fails to address the issues of labor and wages. Now if you try to approach the labor market using capitalist and free market principles, you end up with sweatshops in China and India.

Does anyone honestly think it is a good thing to compete with sweatshop workers in terms of pay/productivity?

There is only one real way to improve labor's market value, which is training that improves their productivity. Yet, the sad truth of the matter is that even with a great education, a large proportion of the population is not that clever. They can't really be trained that far past the level of a sweatshop worker. This is what's traditionally known as "retail sector" or "blue collar."

This makes up a pretty large percentage of the world population. Yet, the blue collar workers in America don't want to work in sweat shop conditions. Capitalism and the free market tells us that the smart thing to do is just tell those blue collar workers to fuck off and move the factories to China.

This is why you see an increasing wealth disparity between the rich and poor in America. The poor have lost their jobs to the increasingly "free" labor market, whereas the rich and intelligent Americans have increased their value because they have some of the world's best education, coupled with some of the world's best tools of production.

AKA, the American factory worker must compete with the Chinese sweat shop worker.

The American Harvard graduate competes with the Chinese Beijing University graduate. Except the Harvard graduate gets to enter an organization like Goldman Sachs, with some of the world's best financial algorithms and the best financing and the best connections.

Therefore, while the free market has allowed the Harvard graduate to reach greater and greater heights by reaching the pinnacle of the financial world and reaping the benefits of competing vs the world due to massive, built-in advantages, the American factory worker has been laid off and can't find another job because he/she is now competing versus the 5 billion people of the developing world.

Do you guys see now why the free market is not helping the vast majority of America?

And if you look at the labor markets, the greatest shift has been away from manufacturing and towards retail. Yet it's a nonsensical shift. How does it make any sense when the retail industry is driven by consumption, and the consumption is paid for by wages from the retail industry?

This is like saying, I get a job at Gamestop. Then I buy a ton of games from Gamestop. Eventually, Gamestop will expand because I'm buying so many games with my wages from them, that Gamestop's sales will be enough to expand.

It makes no sense. Money is constantly being pulled OUT of the economy this way. Every time you put $50 through the system, you end up with less. First, I get the job at Gamestop. They pay me $50. Yet, I pay income tax on that $50. It then becomes $42.

This $42 is then spent to buy a game. Yet I need to supplement it with another $8 from somewhere. So, already I'm at -$8. Okay, $50 + tax = $53. Now I'm at -$11.

Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail.

So, in every transaction of $50 of wages going out of the system, we end up with only $29 of it going back in. It's rather obvious that the US labor/wage market can not be sustained by this type of relationship.

The middle and lower classes cannot live much longer with these types of conditions. This is why there is a constant drain of money OUT of the middle and lower classes and INTO the upper classes.

The reason is because the tax dollars are being siphoned off. That $21 that was taken out is given to the government. Yet, the government we have today is increasingly controlled by corporations. According to current moral and economic philosophy, like that espoused by Jibba and others on TL, it's perfectly okay and constitutional for a corporation to get involved with government. On top of that, morals have no place in economic decisions. Therefore, it is completely okay for a corporation to try to pay to get laws passed that benefit the corporation.

What this means is that those $21 instead of going back into an industry that benefits the lower classes could be funneled into an industry that doesn't support hardly any of the middle-lower classes. Such as the banking industry! So, not only is the middle class losing jobs, competing with a vast number of foreign competitors, but they lose nearly half of every dollar to that mfing Harvard graduate. Because he/she is busy wheeling and dealing, screwed a bunch of people over with greedy "capitalist" ploys, and then needed a bailout.

This is how Main Street gets shafted.

On top of that, to the people who claim that of course the solution to all this is just get rid of taxes, I ask the question, ok, then where is the growth?

Sure, without taxes the $50 between me and Gamestop is cycled back and forth. Yet, that $50 will never grow. It remains $50. Therefore, even in the most ideal of circumstances, the money is not lost, it only remains the SAME. ZERO growth.

In fact, accounting for inflation, you'd still see a loss of $1-2 each year. The industry continues to lose in a perfectly ideal situation. This is why the concept of consumer-based society leading to growth is total bullshit. You cannot grow an economy by spending money. That doesn't work.

The only way to grow the economic pie is technological innovation which decreases the cost of production. This way, I spend $50, Gamestop gets their $50 back. Yet, they have factories/studios that can produce the game for only $5. Therefore, they pay me $50, I buy from them for $50, they get back $45. They can then afford to make 9 more games. With 9 more games, they can make enough money back to hire 8 more workers. This way the loop continues.

Except somewhere in the loop, the business decides that instead, they're just going to pay all those profits to the CEO. We don't need to increase that many jobs. We'll just give it to the top guys. Therefore, once again the middle and lower classes are powerless to stop the flight of money from the consumer-supplier loop.

In pretty much every way, using capitalist and free market principles leads to a loss for the middle and lower classes. This is why Sarkozy says capitalism needs to be refounded to be more moral. That finance, free trade, and competition are a MEANS not an end. And it needs to be redefined and reinvented.

It's because morons run around trying to claim that the free market leads to increased efficiency and prosperity for all as long as everyone just makes decisions in a totally selfish manner. It doesn't. It doesn't work. The past 30 years have shown it doesn't work. It's led to disaster. The globalization and free market proponents were wrong. They did nothing but justify selfishness as a good thing.



Klockan3
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
Sweden2866 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 19:36:48
January 27 2010 19:34 GMT
#2
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
The problem with this theory is it doesn't account for the destructiveness of monopolies.

Which is why no country have ever run a completely free market without laws to protect against monopolies. No kind of pseudo monopoly will ever get stronger than the state and if they become too much of a problem the state will stop them. Big companies like Microsoft are constantly walking on a thread trying to exert as much power as possible will still staying within the laws, the reason they haven't crushed all competition is thanks to those laws. If there is a hole it will get patched and temporary abuse do not cause that much damage, so the system is safe.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 19:39 GMT
#3
On January 28 2010 04:34 Klockan3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
The problem with this theory is it doesn't account for the destructiveness of monopolies.

Which is why no country have ever run a completely free market without laws to protect against monopolies. No kind of pseudo monopoly will ever get stronger than the state and if they become too much of a problem the state will stop them. Big companies like Microsoft are constantly walking on a thread trying to exert as much power as possible will still staying within the laws, the reason they haven't crushed all competition is thanks to those laws. If there is a hole it will get patched and temporary abuse do not cause that much damage, so the system is safe.


Maybe in Sweden. Not in the US. And way to take the shortest soundbite you can find and then making a ridiculous generalization like "the system is safe."

In the USA, we have this new Supreme Court ruling that said corporations can get as involved with politics as they want. GL passing anti-trust laws when half the senate is in Microsoft's pocket. Sort of like passing anti-trust laws in the health industry. Doesn't happen.
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
January 27 2010 19:47 GMT
#4
Storkhwaiting fighting!~~ i agree completely.
zeppelin
Profile Joined December 2007
United States565 Posts
January 27 2010 19:52 GMT
#5
A capitalist will tell you that capitalism is the best system because people are rational actors.

Show them the sum total of human psychology research as counter-evidence to this claim (as well as the fact that marketing exists as a profession) and rather than admit they are wrong they will insist that those people do not deserve to succeed.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 19:54:58
January 27 2010 19:54 GMT
#6
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
AnWh
Profile Joined April 2004
Sweden220 Posts
January 27 2010 19:54 GMT
#7
Great writing. I agree completely.
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
January 27 2010 19:59 GMT
#8
False. The reason for these problems is not economic, but political. The problem is frequent elections and no term limits. This creates a drive for commanding the most support, which means gaining financial and constituent backing from corporate interests. Elected officials then appoint people to other positions (e.g. the Supreme Court) who will help create favorable conditions for their reelection. The way to remove the claws of corporate America from its government is not by attacking the corporations, but by nullifying the problem entirely. How do we do this? Term limits and limitations on public service. Only then will we have an America that is influenced by the goals of its people, not by the selfish goals of its leaders.

The one drawback to this solution is maintaining a balance of experience. Congress is so convoluted that it takes multiple terms to gain the understanding of the system required to accomplish anything. Perhaps this is an effect that will subside with reduced incumbency? That is unsure.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
January 27 2010 20:00 GMT
#9
The question isn't whether free market economy + capitalism is without flaws. There isn't a single system or set of laws in the universe that is w/o flaws that I can think of regarding any aspects of life, let alone something as massive and wide ranging as economy on a global scale. Rather than a long winded post resolved in provoking an argument; you should aim to provide a solution.

But there in lies the problem. There is no solution without its flaws as well. It has, and always will be, easier to insult, degrade, and put down than come up with the right solution. Politicians learned that decades ago. As others have also stated, your post is neither edgy or provocative. Anybody who has taken the simplest business course in high school or college, or simply been a member of the work force long enough, knows about the issues we all face.

Oh, and just to be clear: outside of the business leaders, extremely wealthy, and nutjobs I don't think you'll find many in America who think "less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity." If they did, Ideally the current economic slump should prove otherwise if they hadn't all ready learned it form the Great Depression.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
January 27 2010 20:02 GMT
#10
On January 28 2010 04:54 heyoka wrote:
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!

I'd argue that knowing this is irrelevant because cultural influences make the knowledge rarified by default, which makes the ability to enact meaningful change through a system based on majority voting useless.

Its far easier to call michael moore crazy than to ask "well, why is flint so poor?".

More importantly, the concept of monopolization and the forces which lead to it are also VERY WELL represented in the parties that form our governments, which means that even if our institutions wanted to change, the forces against them will prevent them from doing so. Does anyone think they can found and lead a third party to national relevance in the next decade in the US? Does anyone see the success of the canadian conservative government stemming from the amalgamation of all prior right of center parties?

History is going to look back at us and kinda sigh "why didn't you guys examine the obvious evolutionary path of your institutions before letting them run wild?". Then again, this cycle is repeated pretty much ad nauseum throughout history, so we wont' be the only target of derision.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
January 27 2010 20:04 GMT
#11
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It's a provocative title I know. But it's exactly what I want to debate. FIERCELY.

To start things off I'd like to open with the latest address by President Sarkozy of France:
Globalization Got Out of Control

How can you pretend to make a serious topic and quoting Sarkozy lol ?
This guy is the same guy who was praising the subprime mortgages three years ago.
Now he fakes to change sides because he doesn't want to be stomped at the next election.
This guy is a fucking joke and doesn't believe what he is saying. Do you think that a guy who is friend with pretty much all the richest guys in France and who has cut taxes for them will do something ? He is here to cut taxes ( but only for rich people obv ), destroy the public sector and sell the last public firms to his friends.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
January 27 2010 20:04 GMT
#12
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It doesn't work. The past 30 years have shown it doesn't work. It's led to disaster. The globalization and free market proponents were wrong. They did nothing but justify selfishness as a good thing.

I agree with lots of your points if you just look at one country. However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization. So while the situation for an american blue collar worker might have become harsher, on a global perspective they have become better. So maybe it is just you who is selfish because you only look at the situation in your country and fail to see the millions of lives that improved thanks to globalization?
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
January 27 2010 20:08 GMT
#13
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
zeppelin
Profile Joined December 2007
United States565 Posts
January 27 2010 20:08 GMT
#14
On January 28 2010 04:54 heyoka wrote:
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!


Hi!!!!

yeah tons of people will argue against it, even now lots and lots of Americans (possibly even a majority) think that the banks failed and the market crashed in 2008 because they were constrained by burdensome regulations and if we remove regulations and cut taxes, businesses will have their hands free to create jobs and treat their workers better (even though by continually cutting taxes and regulations for the past 30 years the average worker is now worse off than they were when Reagan took office)
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
January 27 2010 20:09 GMT
#15
On January 28 2010 05:02 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 04:54 heyoka wrote:
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!

I'd argue that knowing this is irrelevant because cultural influences make the knowledge rarified by default, which makes the ability to enact meaningful change through a system based on majority voting useless.

Its far easier to call michael moore crazy than to ask "well, why is flint so poor?".

More importantly, the concept of monopolization and the forces which lead to it are also VERY WELL represented in the parties that form our governments, which means that even if our institutions wanted to change, the forces against them will prevent them from doing so. Does anyone think they can found and lead a third party to national relevance in the next decade in the US? Does anyone see the success of the canadian conservative government stemming from the amalgamation of all prior right of center parties?

History is going to look back at us and kinda sigh "why didn't you guys examine the obvious evolutionary path of your institutions before letting them run wild?". Then again, this cycle is repeated pretty much ad nauseum throughout history, so we wont' be the only target of derision.


The information is fine and the discussion is valid. Framing it as LOOK GUYS I'M GONNA BLOW YOUR MIND ARE YOU READY TO BE SHOCKED AND PROVOKED I WILL CHANGE THE WAY YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORLD is ridiculous.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 20:12 GMT
#16
On January 28 2010 05:00 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
The question isn't whether free market economy + capitalism is without flaws. There isn't a single system or set of laws in the universe that is w/o flaws that I can think of regarding any aspects of life, let alone something as massive and wide ranging as economy on a global scale. Rather than a long winded post resolved in provoking an argument; you should aim to provide a solution.

But there in lies the problem. There is no solution without its flaws as well. It has, and always will be, easier to insult, degrade, and put down than come up with the right solution. Politicians learned that decades ago. As others have also stated, your post is neither edgy or provocative. Anybody who has taken the simplest business course in high school or college, or simply been a member of the work force long enough, knows about the issues we all face.

Oh, and just to be clear: outside of the business leaders, extremely wealthy, and nutjobs I don't think you'll find many in America who think "less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity." If they did, Ideally the current economic slump should prove otherwise if they hadn't all ready learned it form the Great Depression.


What? I did propose a solution, albeit an aspirational one rather than a detailed economic proposal. It's the same one as Sarkozy. The philosophies of capitalism need to be reformed with a moral purpose in mind, rather than relying on puritanical Capitalist ideology.

And just to be clear: if Americans didn't think less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity, the Republican party would lose every single election.

This is the rhetoric that has been espoused in America for the last 30 years. This is the economic philosophy the WORLD has been operating on for the last 30 years. Don't tell me some crap like "this isn't edgy or provocative." If it wasn't provocative, then why was the entire world marching to this beat for decades? And why did it take a massive slap to the face like this last recession to make people wake up and smell the coffee?

Just because I'm posting it now doesn't mean I didn't hold the same view ten years ago. I don't give a shit about being edgy. That was just Heyoka's queer little insult he felt needed to be expressed. It's the fact that this recession was such an epic vindication of my positions (and of many other minority economic thinkers). It is a great thing to see that the world leaders are FINALLY starting to see the light. This view has been the MINORITY for a long time. And I'm amazed you think it hasn't been the minority view.
Louder
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States2276 Posts
January 27 2010 20:14 GMT
#17
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It's a provocative title I know. But it's exactly what I want to debate. FIERCELY.

To start things off I'd like to open with the latest address by President Sarkozy of France:
Globalization Got Out of Control

Now, the way I see it, what's currently taught in economics and finance classes in America is this concept of globalization, free market, capitalism, and less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity.

I want to go ahead and say that's crap.

First, one of the central tenets of modern capitalism is this concept that the "free" market leads to benefit for everyone. They think that things naturally move to an equilibrium in demand/supply/price if left alone. The rationale for this is that people, with enough info, are perfectly rational beings that make the best choices.

The problem with this theory is it doesn't account for the destructiveness of monopolies. In business, anytime a group has either grown or merged into a large enough economic body, they can start to implement destructive strategies like dumping a ton of their products at a very cheap price onto a foreign market and wrecking the local competition. This is validated by capitalism and the free market because this is merely a strategy to increase market share, and if they have the resources to engage in such an act, then they have every right to.

Over the span of a few years, this group demolishes the local competition and creates a monopoly. Then they jack up the prices a ton and win back all the profits they gave up with this strategy. Except once they've recouped their investment, they continue to do it perpetually. This is a win-lose scenario. Yet, it's an example of what happens on the "free" market. This doesn't lead to constant competition and cheaper prices/higher quality for everyone. This leads to a stagnant market where one giant is in control and sells at exorbitant prices because they are the controllers of all supply.

In capitalism, it's theorized that the only way to combat this is for another giant group to emerge. Yet, this sort of competition doesn't help at all. While the two giants are growing, they experience economies of scale and their efficiency increases. Yet, once they reach a certain size, they start to experience the DISeconomies of scale from being too bloated. But they have to continue this arms race, because if they try to scale back, the other one will have the advantage in buying power for that short window of time and can steal more market share, thus perpetuating an advantage until the guy who stepped back first is destroyed.

This creates an effect where giants are constantly forced to grow bigger to compete, even though in the long run it leads to a net loss in efficiency. This is what the free market creates.

The problems with this are obvious. This is why countries have effected protectionist policies to defend against these sorts of aggressive economic strategies. Then you no longer have a free market. It becomes mixed. Our world is full of mixed economies.

The last 30 years of economics in the USA and the world, is a constant attempt to try to bring down these protectionist strategies on the belief that free market was more efficient and beneficial for all. Peep the giant economic collapse we just had. It's pretty obvious to everyone now that this free market liberalization was a horrible idea. It destroyed local industries, it gutted nations, it destroyed whole swathes of industry in nations, and all it really did was lower the retail prices of goods.

What use are lower prices when you don't have a job?

That's the problem with the concept of free market. It's too focused on price of goods as a barometer for efficiency. It fails to address the issues of labor and wages. Now if you try to approach the labor market using capitalist and free market principles, you end up with sweatshops in China and India.

Does anyone honestly think it is a good thing to compete with sweatshop workers in terms of pay/productivity?

There is only one real way to improve labor's market value, which is training that improves their productivity. Yet, the sad truth of the matter is that even with a great education, a large proportion of the population is not that clever. They can't really be trained that far past the level of a sweatshop worker. This is what's traditionally known as "retail sector" or "blue collar."

This makes up a pretty large percentage of the world population. Yet, the blue collar workers in America don't want to work in sweat shop conditions. Capitalism and the free market tells us that the smart thing to do is just tell those blue collar workers to fuck off and move the factories to China.

This is why you see an increasing wealth disparity between the rich and poor in America. The poor have lost their jobs to the increasingly "free" labor market, whereas the rich and intelligent Americans have increased their value because they have some of the world's best education, coupled with some of the world's best tools of production.

AKA, the American factory worker must compete with the Chinese sweat shop worker.

The American Harvard graduate competes with the Chinese Beijing University graduate. Except the Harvard graduate gets to enter an organization like Goldman Sachs, with some of the world's best financial algorithms and the best financing and the best connections.

Therefore, while the free market has allowed the Harvard graduate to reach greater and greater heights by reaching the pinnacle of the financial world and reaping the benefits of competing vs the world due to massive, built-in advantages, the American factory worker has been laid off and can't find another job because he/she is now competing versus the 5 billion people of the developing world.

Do you guys see now why the free market is not helping the vast majority of America?

And if you look at the labor markets, the greatest shift has been away from manufacturing and towards retail. Yet it's a nonsensical shift. How does it make any sense when the retail industry is driven by consumption, and the consumption is paid for by wages from the retail industry?

This is like saying, I get a job at Gamestop. Then I buy a ton of games from Gamestop. Eventually, Gamestop will expand because I'm buying so many games with my wages from them, that Gamestop's sales will be enough to expand.

It makes no sense. Money is constantly being pulled OUT of the economy this way. Every time you put $50 through the system, you end up with less. First, I get the job at Gamestop. They pay me $50. Yet, I pay income tax on that $50. It then becomes $42.

This $42 is then spent to buy a game. Yet I need to supplement it with another $8 from somewhere. So, already I'm at -$8. Okay, $50 + tax = $53. Now I'm at -$11.

Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail.

So, in every transaction of $50 of wages going out of the system, we end up with only $29 of it going back in. It's rather obvious that the US labor/wage market can not be sustained by this type of relationship.

The middle and lower classes cannot live much longer with these types of conditions. This is why there is a constant drain of money OUT of the middle and lower classes and INTO the upper classes.

The reason is because the tax dollars are being siphoned off. That $21 that was taken out is given to the government. Yet, the government we have today is increasingly controlled by corporations. According to current moral and economic philosophy, like that espoused by Jibba and others on TL, it's perfectly okay and constitutional for a corporation to get involved with government. On top of that, morals have no place in economic decisions. Therefore, it is completely okay for a corporation to try to pay to get laws passed that benefit the corporation.

What this means is that those $21 instead of going back into an industry that benefits the lower classes could be funneled into an industry that doesn't support hardly any of the middle-lower classes. Such as the banking industry! So, not only is the middle class losing jobs, competing with a vast number of foreign competitors, but they lose nearly half of every dollar to that mfing Harvard graduate. Because he/she is busy wheeling and dealing, screwed a bunch of people over with greedy "capitalist" ploys, and then needed a bailout.

This is how Main Street gets shafted.

On top of that, to the people who claim that of course the solution to all this is just get rid of taxes, I ask the question, ok, then where is the growth?

Sure, without taxes the $50 between me and Gamestop is cycled back and forth. Yet, that $50 will never grow. It remains $50. Therefore, even in the most ideal of circumstances, the money is not lost, it only remains the SAME. ZERO growth.

In fact, accounting for inflation, you'd still see a loss of $1-2 each year. The industry continues to lose in a perfectly ideal situation. This is why the concept of consumer-based society leading to growth is total bullshit. You cannot grow an economy by spending money. That doesn't work.

The only way to grow the economic pie is technological innovation which decreases the cost of production. This way, I spend $50, Gamestop gets their $50 back. Yet, they have factories/studios that can produce the game for only $5. Therefore, they pay me $50, I buy from them for $50, they get back $45. They can then afford to make 9 more games. With 9 more games, they can make enough money back to hire 8 more workers. This way the loop continues.

Except somewhere in the loop, the business decides that instead, they're just going to pay all those profits to the CEO. We don't need to increase that many jobs. We'll just give it to the top guys. Therefore, once again the middle and lower classes are powerless to stop the flight of money from the consumer-supplier loop.

In pretty much every way, using capitalist and free market principles leads to a loss for the middle and lower classes. This is why Sarkozy says capitalism needs to be refounded to be more moral. That finance, free trade, and competition are a MEANS not an end. And it needs to be redefined and reinvented.

It's because morons run around trying to claim that the free market leads to increased efficiency and prosperity for all as long as everyone just makes decisions in a totally selfish manner. It doesn't. It doesn't work. The past 30 years have shown it doesn't work. It's led to disaster. The globalization and free market proponents were wrong. They did nothing but justify selfishness as a good thing.





Capitalism makes some assumptions that aren't true. It assumes that if an employer treats an employee unfairly, the employee will leave the job and work somewhere else. It assumes that if one business doesn't provide adequate service, a customer will go elsewhere. It assumes that financial success of a business directly translates to new jobs. These are all naive at best - flat out false at worst. What if there is no other job? What if you can't afford a day or an hour without your job? What if there is no other service provider available? What if shareholders get rich and buy yachts and new jobs aren't created? etc, etc.

Capitalism assumes the balance of power lies in the nature of the relationship between consumer and business, but it doesn't. Money is power and the more you have, the more potential you have to make exponentially larger sums, exponentially growing your power, either as a business or an individual. These are the people who decide how much the employed will be paid to do their jobs and how fairly they will (or won't) be treated. These are the people who decide how much debt the average low wage worker will have to take on simply to have a life of subsistence. They decide who gets cancer treatment and who doesn't. The list goes on. There is no accountability. How do you hold accountable the thing on which you depend?

Politically, you have poor people convinced they should vote the best interest of the rich, because they think if they don't the rich people won't have the money to give them jobs anymore. Also because they hope to be rich themselves one day, and don't want to pay more in taxes. You have a government that's infiltrated in every way by the influence of wealth and of private interests being represented in great disproportion to the actual population base they consist of. You have a national infrastructure designed by the rich, to support the interests of the rich.

What you end up with is what we have - a system completely controlled by a very, very small segment of the population, who's power increases day by day. You end up with a laundry list of examples of areas where capitalism has completely failed - post-secondary education, health care, workplace protection and so on.

Good joke
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 20:16 GMT
#18
On January 28 2010 05:09 heyoka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:02 L wrote:
On January 28 2010 04:54 heyoka wrote:
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!

I'd argue that knowing this is irrelevant because cultural influences make the knowledge rarified by default, which makes the ability to enact meaningful change through a system based on majority voting useless.

Its far easier to call michael moore crazy than to ask "well, why is flint so poor?".

More importantly, the concept of monopolization and the forces which lead to it are also VERY WELL represented in the parties that form our governments, which means that even if our institutions wanted to change, the forces against them will prevent them from doing so. Does anyone think they can found and lead a third party to national relevance in the next decade in the US? Does anyone see the success of the canadian conservative government stemming from the amalgamation of all prior right of center parties?

History is going to look back at us and kinda sigh "why didn't you guys examine the obvious evolutionary path of your institutions before letting them run wild?". Then again, this cycle is repeated pretty much ad nauseum throughout history, so we wont' be the only target of derision.


The information is fine and the discussion is valid. Framing it as LOOK GUYS I'M GONNA BLOW YOUR MIND ARE YOU READY TO BE SHOCKED AND PROVOKED I WILL CHANGE THE WAY YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORLD is ridiculous.


Heyoka, get over yourself. I never framed it as that. I think you're being rather immature. The debate is without a doubt provocative. Or else why would world leaders be needing a summit to debate this very issue? On top of that, the very first thing I posted was a link to Sarkozy's points, which I elaborate upon. Therefore, at the very start I am showing that my thoughts are neither original or something that is not already being discussed. I never said anything like "I'm going to blow your mind." Seriously, stop drinking the haterade. Just because I'm passionate about the subject doesn't mean that I think I'm some messiah here to save the masses.

Really disappointed you would take this approach to my writing.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
January 27 2010 20:17 GMT
#19
On January 28 2010 05:12 StorkHwaiting wrote:
What? I did propose a solution, albeit an aspirational one rather than a detailed economic proposal. It's the same one as Sarkozy. The philosophies of capitalism need to be reformed with a moral purpose in mind, rather than relying on puritanical Capitalist ideology.

And just to be clear: if Americans didn't think less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity, the Republican party would lose every single election.

This is the rhetoric that has been espoused in America for the last 30 years. This is the economic philosophy the WORLD has been operating on for the last 30 years. Don't tell me some crap like "this isn't edgy or provocative." If it wasn't provocative, then why was the entire world marching to this beat for decades? And why did it take a massive slap to the face like this last recession to make people wake up and smell the coffee?

Just because I'm posting it now doesn't mean I didn't hold the same view ten years ago. I don't give a shit about being edgy. That was just Heyoka's queer little insult he felt needed to be expressed. It's the fact that this recession was such an epic vindication of my positions (and of many other minority economic thinkers). It is a great thing to see that the world leaders are FINALLY starting to see the light. This view has been the MINORITY for a long time. And I'm amazed you think it hasn't been the minority view.


The crux of the argument still lies in people making the "right" decision. Suddenly thinking, oh, well we'll make the right decision this time, doesn't quite cut it because seldom is there a clear cut correct answer that somehow lands due north so everybody's moral compass points to it.

Republicans would lose every single election if people actually voted on what was best for them or what they believed. Voting has little to do with actual needs, but instead with what basically becomes tradition passed on down families to the younger generation. And switching parties? Please, that's admitting you've had the wrong view point for the past X number of years. People would rather ignore what is best for them just to not be on the losing side of things.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
January 27 2010 20:19 GMT
#20
On January 28 2010 05:09 heyoka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:02 L wrote:
On January 28 2010 04:54 heyoka wrote:
It always blows my mind that people think this is somehow edgy or provocative. Are there people out there who will argue against it?


hi zep!!!

I'd argue that knowing this is irrelevant because cultural influences make the knowledge rarified by default, which makes the ability to enact meaningful change through a system based on majority voting useless.

Its far easier to call michael moore crazy than to ask "well, why is flint so poor?".

More importantly, the concept of monopolization and the forces which lead to it are also VERY WELL represented in the parties that form our governments, which means that even if our institutions wanted to change, the forces against them will prevent them from doing so. Does anyone think they can found and lead a third party to national relevance in the next decade in the US? Does anyone see the success of the canadian conservative government stemming from the amalgamation of all prior right of center parties?

History is going to look back at us and kinda sigh "why didn't you guys examine the obvious evolutionary path of your institutions before letting them run wild?". Then again, this cycle is repeated pretty much ad nauseum throughout history, so we wont' be the only target of derision.


The information is fine and the discussion is valid. Framing it as LOOK GUYS I'M GONNA BLOW YOUR MIND ARE YOU READY TO BE SHOCKED AND PROVOKED I WILL CHANGE THE WAY YOU THINK ABOUT THE WORLD is ridiculous.

Don't see how its ridiculous when the vast majority of people who post show around 0 realization of the higher order effects of the systems being discussed.

I bet the majority of the readers of this site aren't old enough to realize just how different the wages are between now and 1970 because they weren't alive buying appliances and raising a family in the 1970s.

Even if people DID know, they're just a drop in the bucket; the majority don't know and don't care.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
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