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The Lie of Capitalism and Globalization - Page 2

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REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
January 27 2010 20:19 GMT
#21
On January 28 2010 05:08 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?

because it is globalization that brings technological advances and know-how to 3rd world countries.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 20:19 GMT
#22
On January 28 2010 05:04 Boblion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
It's a provocative title I know. But it's exactly what I want to debate. FIERCELY.

To start things off I'd like to open with the latest address by President Sarkozy of France:
Globalization Got Out of Control

How can you pretend to make a serious topic and quoting Sarkozy lol ?
This guy is the same guy who was praising the subprime mortgages three years ago.
Now he fakes to change sides because he doesn't want to be stomped at the next election.
This guy is a fucking joke and doesn't believe what he is saying. Do you think that a guy who is friend with pretty much all the richest guys in France and who has cut taxes for them will do something ? He is here to cut taxes ( but only for rich people obv ), destroy the public sector and sell the last public firms to his friends.


I agree with you. The remarkable thing is that even this scumbag is starting to tout these positions, showing that even at the top, they realize that they can't go on with business as usual anymore. (This is my hope of course. I'm trying to stave off cynicism. Help me out here, Boblion!)
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
January 27 2010 20:20 GMT
#23
On January 28 2010 05:16 StorkHwaiting wrote:Heyoka, get over yourself. I never framed it as that. I think you're being rather immature. The debate is without a doubt provocative. Or else why would world leaders be needing a summit to debate this very issue? On top of that, the very first thing I posted was a link to Sarkozy's points, which I elaborate upon. Therefore, at the very start I am showing that my thoughts are neither original or something that is not already being discussed. I never said anything like "I'm going to blow your mind." Seriously, stop drinking the haterade. Just because I'm passionate about the subject doesn't mean that I think I'm some messiah here to save the masses.

Really disappointed you would take this approach to my writing.


Luls... World leaders getting together about this matter is to make it so they receive votes. As somebody earlier in this thread stated, most economic woes stem directly from political problems within the system rather than the system itself. They have little desire in actually changing the problems that exist as long as it appears they're trying to so their own nations think they're trying their darnedest.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 27 2010 20:22 GMT
#24
I am kind of confused because your post says


Now, the way I see it, what's currently taught in economics and finance classes in America is this concept of globalization, free market, capitalism, and less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity.


what does this mean? increased economic prosperity... compared to what?


Anyways I think that free market economy makes sense in a free world. The problem is with the people, not with the system. So, regulation is necessary because of those people. So a happy medium needs to be reached.
I_Love_Bacon
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States5765 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:25:21
January 27 2010 20:24 GMT
#25
On January 28 2010 05:22 travis wrote:
Anyways I think that free market economy makes sense in a free world. The problem is with the people, not with the system. So, regulation is necessary because of those people. So a happy medium needs to be reached.


This is the internet. There exists no such platform where moderation is correct. Extreme sides must be taken. The choices are 100% free market capitalism or communism. You must choose now, as I'll allow no rationality out of you, mister.
" i havent been playin sc2 but i woke up w/ a boner and i really had to pee... and my crisis management and micro was really something to behold. it inspired me to play some games today" -Liquid'Tyler
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
January 27 2010 20:25 GMT
#26

Now, the way I see it, what's currently taught in economics and finance classes in America is this concept of globalization, free market, capitalism, and less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity.

I want to go ahead and say that's crap.

First, one of the central tenets of modern capitalism is this concept that the "free" market leads to benefit for everyone. They think that things naturally move to an equilibrium in demand/supply/price if left alone. The rationale for this is that people, with enough info, are perfectly rational beings that make the best choices.


I read this and already realized that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to economics.

For an example, consider your little Gamestop analogy:

This is like saying, I get a job at Gamestop. Then I buy a ton of games from Gamestop. Eventually, Gamestop will expand because I'm buying so many games with my wages from them, that Gamestop's sales will be enough to expand.

It makes no sense. Money is constantly being pulled OUT of the economy this way. Every time you put $50 through the system, you end up with less. First, I get the job at Gamestop. They pay me $50. Yet, I pay income tax on that $50. It then becomes $42.

This $42 is then spent to buy a game. Yet I need to supplement it with another $8 from somewhere. So, already I'm at -$8. Okay, $50 + tax = $53. Now I'm at -$11.

Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail.

So, in every transaction of $50 of wages going out of the system, we end up with only $29 of it going back in. It's rather obvious that the US labor/wage market can not be sustained by this type of relationship.


So your entire argument is that the system is unsustainable because corporations are greedy and take out more than is put into the "system." First of all, the only thing you've demonstrated is that the US government, which is not a capitalist enterprise, last time I checked, takes out money that isn't put back in. So your entire argument that it's the corporations fault is based off of the US government taking money out through taxes.

You then to proceed to reveal your ignorance of complaining about "input" and "output" in the system by saying:

What this means is that those $21 instead of going back into an industry that benefits the lower classes could be funneled into an industry that doesn't support hardly any of the middle-lower classes. Such as the banking industry! So, not only is the middle class losing jobs, competing with a vast number of foreign competitors, but they lose nearly half of every dollar to that mfing Harvard graduate. Because he/she is busy wheeling and dealing, screwed a bunch of people over with greedy "capitalist" ploys, and then needed a bailout.


All I read here is: I don't understand why the bailout was key to preventing an across-the-board slash in all market sectors by at least 50%, but I will use popular imagery and combine it with a few numbers and classic "human" arguments and use it to justify my view on economics.

You then complain about all the so called "free-market fundamentalists" and how they are destroying the world by breaking the balance between markets and government and how deregulation is causing all these problems. But then you mention how the reason that "monopolists are such a powerful force in 'free markets'" because they can use law against the other companies to drive them out of business, when in reality that is the primary flaw of having a mixed market. That is why people want deregulation-so larger companies can't use laws to fuck over smaller competitors.

Now we do see companies today gradually consolidating over and over again. This is an example of the idea of economies of scale. But then you make the argument that they are growing so big that they are now in diseconomies of scale. So isn't it patently obvious that these sorts of companies are probably going to be driven out of business by another company that doesn't have such a diseconomy?


Instead of concentrating on popular views and very general ideas, I would focus on the more obvious problems with the free market. For instance, the idea of asymmetric information, which causes market failure, as well as what we call externalities. These are all very key ideas in the teaching of economics which you just gloss over as being free-market fundamentalists. Those are very valid arguments as to why we need to "change" capitalism. They certainly are better than the pop-crap, contradictions, and blatant generalizations that your entire argument revolves around.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Tower82
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada13 Posts
January 27 2010 20:26 GMT
#27
Hey I just want to point out some flaws in your statements.

"Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail."

if GS(gamestop) pays you 50 and gets that 50 back in sales it pays no corporate income tax. your forgetting that wages are a deduction so its net income would be zero.

now there would be personal income tax on the 50 that you made say that 8 dollars, but that 8 dollars doesnt disappear. it pays for alot of social programs where many are targetted to the lowest income groups.


now regarding your argument that globalization is bad or the "devil". I will admit that yes alot of factory or blue collared workers in the USA did get the shaft when alot of jobs went to china, etc. but we also saw a large increase in our standard of living. This is what happens when a nation goes from a manufacturing base to knowledge base. Those displaced factory workers need to get new skills to get new jobs.

about your lost $$$ from taxes,etc....anything going to taxes arent lost as i mentioned earlier they go to the government and become part of government spending. So our GDP is made up of private /government sectors. (investments for each are included in each part) the only real loss is from inflation which is why its soo important to invest so you can stay ahead of inflation, but you need to remember that every year you get paid with that days dollar which includes prior inflation. now yes you need raises to really stay ahead of the game, but for most thats not a problem.


so overall as others have mentioned yes they are flaws and distortions, but globalization is good for everyone and yes sweatshops suck but with the political pressures i dont think they are as abundant as before.

about the taxes less taxes can be better see supply side economics, but as with any economic/political discussion there are two sides to the coin and usually your own personal biases come into play.
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 20:27 GMT
#28
On January 28 2010 05:17 I_Love_Bacon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:12 StorkHwaiting wrote:
What? I did propose a solution, albeit an aspirational one rather than a detailed economic proposal. It's the same one as Sarkozy. The philosophies of capitalism need to be reformed with a moral purpose in mind, rather than relying on puritanical Capitalist ideology.

And just to be clear: if Americans didn't think less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity, the Republican party would lose every single election.

This is the rhetoric that has been espoused in America for the last 30 years. This is the economic philosophy the WORLD has been operating on for the last 30 years. Don't tell me some crap like "this isn't edgy or provocative." If it wasn't provocative, then why was the entire world marching to this beat for decades? And why did it take a massive slap to the face like this last recession to make people wake up and smell the coffee?

Just because I'm posting it now doesn't mean I didn't hold the same view ten years ago. I don't give a shit about being edgy. That was just Heyoka's queer little insult he felt needed to be expressed. It's the fact that this recession was such an epic vindication of my positions (and of many other minority economic thinkers). It is a great thing to see that the world leaders are FINALLY starting to see the light. This view has been the MINORITY for a long time. And I'm amazed you think it hasn't been the minority view.


The crux of the argument still lies in people making the "right" decision. Suddenly thinking, oh, well we'll make the right decision this time, doesn't quite cut it because seldom is there a clear cut correct answer that somehow lands due north so everybody's moral compass points to it.

Republicans would lose every single election if people actually voted on what was best for them or what they believed. Voting has little to do with actual needs, but instead with what basically becomes tradition passed on down families to the younger generation. And switching parties? Please, that's admitting you've had the wrong view point for the past X number of years. People would rather ignore what is best for them just to not be on the losing side of things.


I'd have to disagree. Because the guiding philosophy for the past 30 years is that things will naturally take care of themselves. This ideal of laissez faire.

Now, they're being forced to take a step back, reevaluate, and realize that no, laissez faire and letting things take the "natural" course is not the right way. Rather, things will need to be guided and more strictly regulated to create the outcomes that are needed.

To use an Eastern example, it's the difference between Confucianism and Taoism. It is a fundamental difference between the two and it most certainly does not have the same foundation of "people making the right decision."

Taoism espouses that there is a natural "Way," and that if everything is in tune with that Way it leads to harmony for all. This is very VERY similar to the concept of laissez faire, market forces, and natural equilibrium. Sometimes I wonder if the original theorists of these concepts drew their inspiration from Lao Zi.

Confucianism, on the other hand, says that systems must be created that create the good effects we want to see, and it is in the perfection of these systems and roles of people that harmony can be found.

There is a HUGE difference between the two, to the point that the philosophies are virtually antagonistic. And this is the entire crux of the debate going on right now. Is the "free" and "natural" order of things most beneficial, or should we be focusing on creating systems that are best at guiding and creating the growth/equality that we think is morally righteous for the people.

This is what is meant by "reinventing capitalism so that these original principles are the means and not the ends." We need to reinvent these theories and implement systems so that they serve what we want as a society, rather than just letting nature take its course.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:34:12
January 27 2010 20:28 GMT
#29
On January 28 2010 05:19 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:08 L wrote:
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?

because it is globalization that brings technological advances and know-how to 3rd world countries.

No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

So your entire argument is that the system is unsustainable because corporations are greedy and take out more than is put into the "system." First of all, the only thing you've demonstrated is that the US government, which is not a capitalist enterprise, last time I checked, takes out money that isn't put back in. So your entire argument that it's the corporations fault is based off of the US government taking money out through taxes.
You can use the taxes as a substitute for any form of externality, or any form of non transactional cost. Even the material upkeep of the store would break the cycle. The point is there's no wealth being created in the cycle, but there's a transactional cost regardless.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
January 27 2010 20:29 GMT
#30
caller ur mean
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
January 27 2010 20:30 GMT
#31
On January 28 2010 05:28 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:19 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
On January 28 2010 05:08 L wrote:
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?

because it is globalization that brings technological advances and know-how to 3rd world countries.

No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

L is correct here. I would consider globalization to have started even in the 19th century, however.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:34:34
January 27 2010 20:30 GMT
#32
On January 28 2010 05:29 travis wrote:
caller ur mean

sorry

i tend to get a little bit irritated when people insult the field that i'm passionate about as being full of lies without any evidence at all to back it up.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
StorkHwaiting
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States3465 Posts
January 27 2010 20:35 GMT
#33
On January 28 2010 05:26 Tower82 wrote:
Hey I just want to point out some flaws in your statements.

"Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail."

if GS(gamestop) pays you 50 and gets that 50 back in sales it pays no corporate income tax. your forgetting that wages are a deduction so its net income would be zero.

now there would be personal income tax on the 50 that you made say that 8 dollars, but that 8 dollars doesnt disappear. it pays for alot of social programs where many are targetted to the lowest income groups.


now regarding your argument that globalization is bad or the "devil". I will admit that yes alot of factory or blue collared workers in the USA did get the shaft when alot of jobs went to china, etc. but we also saw a large increase in our standard of living. This is what happens when a nation goes from a manufacturing base to knowledge base. Those displaced factory workers need to get new skills to get new jobs.

about your lost $$$ from taxes,etc....anything going to taxes arent lost as i mentioned earlier they go to the government and become part of government spending. So our GDP is made up of private /government sectors. (investments for each are included in each part) the only real loss is from inflation which is why its soo important to invest so you can stay ahead of inflation, but you need to remember that every year you get paid with that days dollar which includes prior inflation. now yes you need raises to really stay ahead of the game, but for most thats not a problem.


so overall as others have mentioned yes they are flaws and distortions, but globalization is good for everyone and yes sweatshops suck but with the political pressures i dont think they are as abundant as before.

about the taxes less taxes can be better see supply side economics, but as with any economic/political discussion there are two sides to the coin and usually your own personal biases come into play.


1. Those $8 go to cruise missiles blowing up rocks in Afghanistan too. A lot more of those $8 go to that than ever go into any welfare program. A lot more of those $8 go to Lockheed Martin execs to buy ferraris or to building oil refineries in Iraq. None of this money is going back to the people. Go take a look at government spending and where the money flows. It's not back to the people. There's a reason social security is bankrupt.

2. You ignored my point that only a small portion of the US labor market is capable of meeting the intellectual demands of the high-skill labor force. The majority are not smart enough.

3. Actually wages increases ARE a problem. Wages have not increased over the last 30 years. They've remained stagnant while the cost of living has gone up. It's a major issue in US economics. Also, examine the factors of inflation, and why the majority of America has absolutely no ability to control the rate of inflation.

Caller
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Poland8075 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:37:43
January 27 2010 20:36 GMT
#34
On January 28 2010 05:28 L wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:19 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
On January 28 2010 05:08 L wrote:
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?

because it is globalization that brings technological advances and know-how to 3rd world countries.

No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

Show nested quote +
So your entire argument is that the system is unsustainable because corporations are greedy and take out more than is put into the "system." First of all, the only thing you've demonstrated is that the US government, which is not a capitalist enterprise, last time I checked, takes out money that isn't put back in. So your entire argument that it's the corporations fault is based off of the US government taking money out through taxes.
You can use the taxes as a substitute for any form of externality, or any form of non transactional cost. Even the material upkeep of the store would break the cycle. The point is there's no wealth being created in the cycle, but there's a transactional cost regardless.

While this is true, L, his entire argument mentions nothing of externality, nor does it mention something about transactional costs either. It simply talks about taxes.

If you're insisting that transactional costs are a flaw, though, then by that argument no market system can ever be good because your outputs will never be 100% from your inputs. It's like the idea of a Carnot engine in chemistry-you will never have 100% efficiency with your heat engines because of the second law of thermodynamics and how entropy works. The transactional cost represents the difference of inputs to outputs.

I also like it when the OP proceeds to ignore my post and go to the next one.
Watch me fail at Paradox: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=397564
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
January 27 2010 20:36 GMT
#35
On January 28 2010 04:32 StorkHwaiting wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
It's a provocative title I know. But it's exactly what I want to debate. FIERCELY.

To start things off I'd like to open with the latest address by President Sarkozy of France:
Globalization Got Out of Control

Now, the way I see it, what's currently taught in economics and finance classes in America is this concept of globalization, free market, capitalism, and less taxes/regulation = increased economic prosperity.

I want to go ahead and say that's crap.

First, one of the central tenets of modern capitalism is this concept that the "free" market leads to benefit for everyone. They think that things naturally move to an equilibrium in demand/supply/price if left alone. The rationale for this is that people, with enough info, are perfectly rational beings that make the best choices.

The problem with this theory is it doesn't account for the destructiveness of monopolies. In business, anytime a group has either grown or merged into a large enough economic body, they can start to implement destructive strategies like dumping a ton of their products at a very cheap price onto a foreign market and wrecking the local competition. This is validated by capitalism and the free market because this is merely a strategy to increase market share, and if they have the resources to engage in such an act, then they have every right to.

Over the span of a few years, this group demolishes the local competition and creates a monopoly. Then they jack up the prices a ton and win back all the profits they gave up with this strategy. Except once they've recouped their investment, they continue to do it perpetually. This is a win-lose scenario. Yet, it's an example of what happens on the "free" market. This doesn't lead to constant competition and cheaper prices/higher quality for everyone. This leads to a stagnant market where one giant is in control and sells at exorbitant prices because they are the controllers of all supply.

In capitalism, it's theorized that the only way to combat this is for another giant group to emerge. Yet, this sort of competition doesn't help at all. While the two giants are growing, they experience economies of scale and their efficiency increases. Yet, once they reach a certain size, they start to experience the DISeconomies of scale from being too bloated. But they have to continue this arms race, because if they try to scale back, the other one will have the advantage in buying power for that short window of time and can steal more market share, thus perpetuating an advantage until the guy who stepped back first is destroyed.

This creates an effect where giants are constantly forced to grow bigger to compete, even though in the long run it leads to a net loss in efficiency. This is what the free market creates.

The problems with this are obvious. This is why countries have effected protectionist policies to defend against these sorts of aggressive economic strategies. Then you no longer have a free market. It becomes mixed. Our world is full of mixed economies.

The last 30 years of economics in the USA and the world, is a constant attempt to try to bring down these protectionist strategies on the belief that free market was more efficient and beneficial for all. Peep the giant economic collapse we just had. It's pretty obvious to everyone now that this free market liberalization was a horrible idea. It destroyed local industries, it gutted nations, it destroyed whole swathes of industry in nations, and all it really did was lower the retail prices of goods.

What use are lower prices when you don't have a job?

That's the problem with the concept of free market. It's too focused on price of goods as a barometer for efficiency. It fails to address the issues of labor and wages. Now if you try to approach the labor market using capitalist and free market principles, you end up with sweatshops in China and India.

Does anyone honestly think it is a good thing to compete with sweatshop workers in terms of pay/productivity?

There is only one real way to improve labor's market value, which is training that improves their productivity. Yet, the sad truth of the matter is that even with a great education, a large proportion of the population is not that clever. They can't really be trained that far past the level of a sweatshop worker. This is what's traditionally known as "retail sector" or "blue collar."

This makes up a pretty large percentage of the world population. Yet, the blue collar workers in America don't want to work in sweat shop conditions. Capitalism and the free market tells us that the smart thing to do is just tell those blue collar workers to fuck off and move the factories to China.

This is why you see an increasing wealth disparity between the rich and poor in America. The poor have lost their jobs to the increasingly "free" labor market, whereas the rich and intelligent Americans have increased their value because they have some of the world's best education, coupled with some of the world's best tools of production.

AKA, the American factory worker must compete with the Chinese sweat shop worker.

The American Harvard graduate competes with the Chinese Beijing University graduate. Except the Harvard graduate gets to enter an organization like Goldman Sachs, with some of the world's best financial algorithms and the best financing and the best connections.

Therefore, while the free market has allowed the Harvard graduate to reach greater and greater heights by reaching the pinnacle of the financial world and reaping the benefits of competing vs the world due to massive, built-in advantages, the American factory worker has been laid off and can't find another job because he/she is now competing versus the 5 billion people of the developing world.

Do you guys see now why the free market is not helping the vast majority of America?

And if you look at the labor markets, the greatest shift has been away from manufacturing and towards retail. Yet it's a nonsensical shift. How does it make any sense when the retail industry is driven by consumption, and the consumption is paid for by wages from the retail industry?

This is like saying, I get a job at Gamestop. Then I buy a ton of games from Gamestop. Eventually, Gamestop will expand because I'm buying so many games with my wages from them, that Gamestop's sales will be enough to expand.

It makes no sense. Money is constantly being pulled OUT of the economy this way. Every time you put $50 through the system, you end up with less. First, I get the job at Gamestop. They pay me $50. Yet, I pay income tax on that $50. It then becomes $42.

This $42 is then spent to buy a game. Yet I need to supplement it with another $8 from somewhere. So, already I'm at -$8. Okay, $50 + tax = $53. Now I'm at -$11.

Then Gamestop gets their $50 and has to pay corporate tax on it. So they're down to what? $40? A net of $-21 for a single transaction between retail to employee and back to retail.

So, in every transaction of $50 of wages going out of the system, we end up with only $29 of it going back in. It's rather obvious that the US labor/wage market can not be sustained by this type of relationship.

The middle and lower classes cannot live much longer with these types of conditions. This is why there is a constant drain of money OUT of the middle and lower classes and INTO the upper classes.

The reason is because the tax dollars are being siphoned off. That $21 that was taken out is given to the government. Yet, the government we have today is increasingly controlled by corporations. According to current moral and economic philosophy, like that espoused by Jibba and others on TL, it's perfectly okay and constitutional for a corporation to get involved with government. On top of that, morals have no place in economic decisions. Therefore, it is completely okay for a corporation to try to pay to get laws passed that benefit the corporation.

What this means is that those $21 instead of going back into an industry that benefits the lower classes could be funneled into an industry that doesn't support hardly any of the middle-lower classes. Such as the banking industry! So, not only is the middle class losing jobs, competing with a vast number of foreign competitors, but they lose nearly half of every dollar to that mfing Harvard graduate. Because he/she is busy wheeling and dealing, screwed a bunch of people over with greedy "capitalist" ploys, and then needed a bailout.

This is how Main Street gets shafted.

On top of that, to the people who claim that of course the solution to all this is just get rid of taxes, I ask the question, ok, then where is the growth?

Sure, without taxes the $50 between me and Gamestop is cycled back and forth. Yet, that $50 will never grow. It remains $50. Therefore, even in the most ideal of circumstances, the money is not lost, it only remains the SAME. ZERO growth.

In fact, accounting for inflation, you'd still see a loss of $1-2 each year. The industry continues to lose in a perfectly ideal situation. This is why the concept of consumer-based society leading to growth is total bullshit. You cannot grow an economy by spending money. That doesn't work.

The only way to grow the economic pie is technological innovation which decreases the cost of production. This way, I spend $50, Gamestop gets their $50 back. Yet, they have factories/studios that can produce the game for only $5. Therefore, they pay me $50, I buy from them for $50, they get back $45. They can then afford to make 9 more games. With 9 more games, they can make enough money back to hire 8 more workers. This way the loop continues.

Except somewhere in the loop, the business decides that instead, they're just going to pay all those profits to the CEO. We don't need to increase that many jobs. We'll just give it to the top guys. Therefore, once again the middle and lower classes are powerless to stop the flight of money from the consumer-supplier loop.

In pretty much every way, using capitalist and free market principles leads to a loss for the middle and lower classes. This is why Sarkozy says capitalism needs to be refounded to be more moral. That finance, free trade, and competition are a MEANS not an end. And it needs to be redefined and reinvented.

It's because morons run around trying to claim that the free market leads to increased efficiency and prosperity for all as long as everyone just makes decisions in a totally selfish manner. It doesn't. It doesn't work. The past 30 years have shown it doesn't work. It's led to disaster. The globalization and free market proponents were wrong. They did nothing but justify selfishness as a good thing.


[citation needed]
free market doesn't mean unregulated. and your gamestop example is beyond terrible. you make so many presumptions that are completely untrue it's unbelievable.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
REDBLUEGREEN
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Germany1903 Posts
January 27 2010 20:40 GMT
#36
On January 28 2010 05:28 L wrote:
No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

If you read my post again you will notice that I spoke about technological advances and know-how not the green revolution.
Some people might spend money to educate people in 3rd world countries just because they are awesome persons, but corporations that operate factories also have to educate and bring know-how to their personnel in order to function properly.
L
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada4732 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:44:48
January 27 2010 20:42 GMT
#37
On January 28 2010 05:36 Caller wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:28 L wrote:
On January 28 2010 05:19 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
On January 28 2010 05:08 L wrote:
However global prosperity and living standarts have improved a lot over the last 30 years thanks to globalization.
How do you know they're because of globalization instead of far more powerful forces, like the green revolution or a vast number of technological advances?

because it is globalization that brings technological advances and know-how to 3rd world countries.

No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

So your entire argument is that the system is unsustainable because corporations are greedy and take out more than is put into the "system." First of all, the only thing you've demonstrated is that the US government, which is not a capitalist enterprise, last time I checked, takes out money that isn't put back in. So your entire argument that it's the corporations fault is based off of the US government taking money out through taxes.
You can use the taxes as a substitute for any form of externality, or any form of non transactional cost. Even the material upkeep of the store would break the cycle. The point is there's no wealth being created in the cycle, but there's a transactional cost regardless.

While this is true, L, his entire argument mentions nothing of externality, nor does it mention something about transactional costs either. It simply talks about taxes.

If you're insisting that transactional costs are a flaw, though, then by that argument no market system can ever be good because your outputs will never be 100% from your inputs. It's like the idea of a Carnot engine in chemistry-you will never have 100% efficiency with your heat engines because of the second law of thermodynamics and how entropy works. The transactional cost represents the difference of inputs to outputs.

I also like it when the OP proceeds to ignore my post and go to the next one.

That's not really true, because even if you don't have 100% efficiency, you can always have something other than a closed system; if you create wealth, then it can be destroyed by inefficiencies, but the onus would be on creating more wealth. If we take manufacturing to be the prototypical example of a clear value added process, we can see that MAKING STUFF GIVES YOU MONEY. If, however, the only thing you do is cyclically trade around retail goods, you simply run out over time.

The idea behind his statement is that the near complete collapse of manufacturing has stopped the input of wealth into the system, which is now spinning around in service industries being shaved down slowly.

On January 28 2010 05:40 REDBLUEGREEN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2010 05:28 L wrote:
No it isn't. the green revolution started just after WW2 and was spreading of its own accord. The implementation of most strains of food which resulted in the revolution occured prior to 1970.

The modern era of globalization started in earnest after the tokyo GATT round in 1973 where the amount of tariff reductions secured was around 8 times higher than the prior round. This series of concessions then went on to create the WTO.

If you read my post again you will notice that I spoke about technological advances and know-how not the green revolution.
Some people might spend money to educate people in 3rd world countries just because they are awesome persons, but corporations that operate factories also have to educate and bring know-how to their personnel in order to function properly.


The green revolution is the largest example of a sharing of technological advances and know-how. It occured pre globalization and has probably saved billions from starvation.

You need to do more than say that globalization has existed while the standard of living has increased. You need to isolate globalization.
The number you have dialed is out of porkchops.
RandomAccount#49059
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2140 Posts
January 27 2010 20:45 GMT
#38
--- Nuked ---
Oxygen
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
Canada3581 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-01-27 20:52:38
January 27 2010 20:48 GMT
#39
There are a lot of good books by Chomsky on this topic, where he clearly displays the abuse of power by corporations in the United States, as well as their affiliation with government entities. If you want a good documentary for sourcing, I strongly recommend 'Manufacturing Consent'.

Edit: I skimmed a few of the posts very briefly, and it seems the arguments are economically driven. I think the arguments should be morally driven, since a system that devalues life is inherently wrong (for obvious moral reasons).
Dont drink and derive. TSL: Made with Balls.
lu_cid
Profile Joined April 2008
United States428 Posts
January 27 2010 20:49 GMT
#40
Yes this is all true. It's disgusting. The question is, what in the world can anyone do about it?
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