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Hi, Im a D protoss, i havnt been playing starcraft that much and im not that good at it.
I recently played against a D+ zerg on destination, heres the rep
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=25810
I thought i was doing really well, having around 5 control groups of units, but when i engaged my units got completely melted.
I think it may be because i had really bad unit placement near the start, and therefore VERY delayed tech because i couldnt place my gate at my nat -_-.
I also didnt expand much, going to my mineral only and not my third gas base, i didnt put down many gates either and wasnt doing any harassment(i sent out DTs, but they got owned by hydras).
What do i need to improve to win? Should i focus more on my macro and definitely get better building placements?
Thanks 
Mod Edit: I changed the title of this thread from [H] how did i lose to this? desti pvz
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First of all, try not to lose your scouting probe so quickly. He only made 2 lings... also, your build was just really inefficient. Generally, there's no point in getting your gas before your Gateway, since there's no way to spend it until you get a Core anyway. So yeah, better building placement would've helped you.
Also, if you're not going Sair/Reaver or dual Stargates, you definitely need to get your Citadel up a lot faster than that. Basically, you've got to work on your build orders for sure. As a result of your inefficient build your Corsair was out *really* late - if he'd gone 3 hatch Muta or something then you would've died right there.
You're getting a fair amount of Corsairs (that is to say, investing quite a bit in terms of resources) but you're getting them picked off - keep them together, since once you get 6+ you don't have to worry about scourge very much.
Constant probe production...
At 11:30, he has more supply than you. That should almost *never* ever happen.
Basically, you're letting him build up with no pressure from you at all. If you do let him build up, then you'd better storm like crazy... but you allowed his Mutas to snipe quite a few HTs and you probably could've tossed another 5-6 storms in that large clash.
So yeah, definitely work on building placement and build orders, because you were already behind by the time you guys clashed for the first time. Micro could have been better but really your problem was with macro and inefficient build.
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Looked through the replay and two major fixes are required before looking at late game problems.
First is your build order isn't correct.
Second your probe saturation is crap. 12 probes on each mineral line is about equivalent to a one base income. Learn to 0p9p. Once you do that you will see you have tons of stockpiled minerals that can be put towards more gateways, units, and expansions.
In this game he just sat on his 3 gas vs your undersaturated two bases and a-moved against your tiny army.
Once you fix those then you can start looking at your 3rd base timing and late game problems more.
edit: If you want a single thing to work on in your next dozen games, it's 0p9p.
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Braavos36390 Posts
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
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Braavos36390 Posts
Now that I have taught 90% of D Protoss players how to macro, I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Hot_Bid.
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Haha ... oh Hot_Bid ... nice guide =).
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I think that's super good advice; I was having problems with my pvz(and, I suppose, all of my matchups in retrospect), when I analyzed my replays I realised my probe production fell behind hard midgame and my pylon timing was awful. So I worked on just probes and gate macro and pylons, never letting myself get stuck for psi, and i've already made a marked improvement. I'm gonna continue to work on this, cause it's not perfect yet, but it's actually a really rewarding feeling, you can seriously feel yourself getting better, faster and more on top of the game. A great way to learn the basics or(like me) chip the rust away after a few years off.
Thanks Hot_Bid!
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knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
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Braavos36390 Posts
On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production
thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can
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Ah i see, i thought my probe saturation was non-existant when i briefly saw my mineral line during the game. I will definitely practice my build orders and macro. thanks for all the tips guys :D
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On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro
Oh god, this is what gets me when I play zerg. I'm not used to having to choose between workers and combat units and my proportions/timings of production of each are probably way off, killing my macro.
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I can't tell if this entire thread is sarcastic or not
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
What Hot_bid says here is 100% correct !!!
I cant stress it enough either: make probes and units all the time.
If you're building probes and units all the time non-stop you can reach C+ in 2 weeks.
I know it sounds weird and unbelievable to many beginners but if you macro like that almost perfectly, then you dont even need micro @ D lvl. Even if he kills more units then you do every fight and ur loosing alot more units then you feel you should lose, you will win anyway because you make like 3 times more units and you can just 1a2a3a ur way to win with proper macro.
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
Great guide hot_bid...
but playing korean hours, I doubt one can get out of D+ with just this...
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On December 06 2009 16:13 Hot_Bid wrote:
Here is how to macro with Protoss past D+ level:
For 4-5 games, try to focus on only building probes and not getting stuck at supply for a game or two. That means neglect micro and other stuff and just make sure that your two or three nexus lights never stop blinking. If you lose, you lose. Watch the replays and select each nexus, did it ever stop blinking? If so, keep practicing building probes and pylons.
Once your nexus' lights never go off for two bases, then work on gateways the same way. It becomes much harder to not get stuck at supply while doing this, but try. Do this for as many games as necessary to keep the nexus lights on AND keep your gates going. You will feel like you are spending all your attention and APM just building probes, units, and buildings. This is fine. Keep doing it, over and over and over and over and over.
If you find that you can't do this against an opponent because you just lose, do it against the computer. As many games as it takes to make 0p9p second nature and whatever gateway macro method you use completely instinctual. Once your nexus light never stops and your gates hum smoothly, you can stop playing the computer and start learning how to control your army between macro sweeps.
You don't even need to be good at micro. Once you learn to macro, you likely can automatically get to C- just by macroing and then a-moving. Sometimes, you'll have 2k/1k and still have a ton of more stuff than your opponent. This is called "outmacroing someone" and is really enjoyable and rewarding.
Enjoy your C rank.
Does Hot_Bid's advice still apply to D/D+ Terran macro? When I play Terran, if I don't at least siege and mine up in TvP, or stim before engaging Zerg in TvZ, I'd get owned. Can I afford to solely macro if I play Terran at the D level?
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is awesome32277 Posts
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
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On December 06 2009 19:46 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2009 19:20 lazz wrote:
knowing when to and when not to build probes is the hardest part about protoss macro this is not important at D level. knowing where skipping probes at certain build timings is important at higher ranks, but a lower level player shouldn't worry about this, because they already have enough trouble just keeping constant probe production thus, my advice to you and to the people reading this thread is just make as many probes as you can
but after 10min into the game, you would have far too much probes, don't i?
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On December 07 2009 03:07 IntoTheWow wrote:
No with T you need to baby sit your army a lot. An army of 12 tanks and 24 vults unsieged and unmined will die easily to a protoss army of equal force.
D Terran's woes...
On the other hand, I watched the replay. Easily your biggest problem is just not producing enough workers. I see you hotkeyed your nexus's to 0 and 9, but you didn't use that to help you build more workers. I'd suggest practicing macro either against a comp, or making a LAN game and dumping your computer opponent, so you can just practice building units by yourself.
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As an alternative to 0 and 9 for nexus'(nexii?), try using screen hotkeys (f2,f3,f4) for your bases. Lets you switch between them to respond to harassment much easier, also helps especially in pvz because you frequently have to build buildings in different bases to defend from harassment (lategame pvz always try to have a gateway and a robo at each mining expansion.) Plus this lets you keep your hand on the left side of the keyboard for pretty much everything except for building probes (gotta hop to p). But yeah, then use 5-0 for gateways and get really good at going 5d6d7d8d9d0d or 5z6z7z8z9z0z. It's kind of a stretch but its really handy because you can at least have partial macro cycles while never having your eyes off the battle. When you have a shit-ton of gateways (late game pvt) expand this idea to having 6 centered at one cluster of gateways, 7 at another, 8 at another. That way you can double hit 6 run a round of gateways, double hit 7 run a round of gateways, etc etc (you can also use alt+6). Once you get good at macro you'll have 200 apm and people will be like "wahh" and start making threads about why'd they lose to you. Then you just have to figure out expansion timings and micro and you'll be gosu.
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EPT
