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On September 10 2010 03:15 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 02:41 GogoKodo wrote:
At level 15 how do you know anything about really really good players, or even really good players? Not meant to be a slight, just curious at how people are getting a look at higher level play. At lvl 15 you haven't ever even played a ranked game. I suppose if you have higher level friends you could be playing practice matches with them, but that's still probably not a great indicator of the really really good vs just the really good.
I like to think that I have good competitive perception. I mean, I've completely inundated my life in competitive gaming. I'm a game programmer for a living. I may not have experienced the best of the best myself, but I've seen my share of LoL tournaments to see what people are doing. The original discussion a few pages back was on LoL's complexity, and I was pointing out how more game mechanics equate to greater complexity. I then went to say that less complex games have a lower skill cap, much like SC2 versus SC1 in terms of exploitable game mechanics. My point isn't that the best LoL players are bad. In fact, they're damn good. However, they're good at something that isn't as complex as the other DotA games. I'll use SC2 as an example: In the future you'll still see the expected players in the top 5%: Idra, White/DuckloadRA, the OGS crew, etc. These people would and do have similar success in SC1. However, SC2's next 10% would be filled with people who probably wouldn't fit in the same percentile for SC1. I'm not talking ladder rankings, since we all know Blizzard's points are silly. Just imagine some arbitrary tier list of players. Mid-High Tier SC1 players would enjoy Top Tier success in SC2. Likewise, Top Tier SC2 players might not enjoy top tier SC1 success, but you can expect the very very top to be similar across the board. On a completely unrelated note: I played a random unranked game in LoL on the same team as a guy named "DuckloadRA" (I have screenshots!). He wouldn't talk or acknowledge me questioning his name. But he was pretty decent with Morgana and doing things the average LoL player does not do. Perhaps it was him! :D Or perhaps it was one of you TL folk masquerading as him! Admit it whomever you are!
I'm gonna straight up claim that keeping track of 9 individual human players and making perfect decisions based on that while making sure your team works together properly (in real time) is a task that will not be mastered anytime soon. Not in DotA, not in HoN, not in LoL. The mechanical component might be easier in LoL, but honestly, that's not an issue at higher levels of play.
The top 10% of SC2 might look different than the top 10% of SCBW simply because in the last years, a large part of the SCBW player base has always had a high percentage of really enthusiastic and competitive players (ICCUP D/D- and above). SC2 has a lot of "casuals", kiddies and so on.
But among the people who are playing SC2 with a very competitive mindset, the top 10% will look similar to the top 10% of SCBW (and just like an ICCup D rank was way above any bnet casual, those will be way above anyone else as well).
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hope the new graphics are really optimized or optional, cause I already run the game at 35-40 fps...
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Yeah, the game is fairly slow for the graphics it has imo, so I'm already at the lowest settings...
This brush looks weird...
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On September 10 2010 01:48 gtrsrs wrote:
soraka has literally the worst attack animation from DotA or LoL. i can't think of a champ with a worse one in either game. trist's is great. karthus has a pretty good animation but it doesn't really matter on him imo. i feel like panth's crit strike attack animation is really really fast. tf has a good animation.
Sometimes I take fortify on her basically just for the last hitting.
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![[image loading]](http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc155/vlanitak/mostepicvladgameevar.png)
most epic game ever
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Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 10 2010 04:16 Vlanitak wrote:most epic game ever
that looks like a terrible game tbh, no tank on either side. fights probably lasted oh....2 seconds?
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Bearded Elder29904 Posts
wtf are those champ icons? T_T
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On September 10 2010 01:15 spinesheath wrote:
So people are just bad at LoL. That doesn't mean that the game itself is easy. Unless you know which champ is imba and nobody else realizes it.
Yes, I want an attack animaton buff for Ashe! Right now! It's the single most annoying thing about her.
It wasn't really a surprise to you that Void Staff becomes more efficient the more MR the enemy has, was it? I mean, it cuts off more MR, so...
Sorry for delay in response times, I've been in class all day.
I'm not saying I'm surprised that it becomes more effective, I just proved the opposite. Past about 130-135 MR (after reductions and penetration) you begin to see less of an overall increase in damage against the target.
Yes you begin to take away more MR but each of those points becomes less valuable.
Say you have a nuke which hits for 500 before reductions. Against targets with 150 and 300 MR respectively:
150 --> 200
300 --> 125
With a void staff (ignoring the other benefits of the item, such as the AP) the damage would be:
150 --> 263
300 --> 179
Which gives you a 63 damage and a 54 damage increase respectively. I expected the opposite result, that the more MR you had the more extra damage you would be taking.
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Not even level 5 pool with blue can make you pool twice if you're focused, You realize you can ghost into pool, right?
150 --> 263 (31% increase)
300 --> 179 (43% increase)
Which gives you a 63 damage and a 54 damage increase respectively. I expected the opposite result, that the more MR you had the more extra damage you would be taking.
You were originally right. Note the percentage damage increases. As MR increases, the proportion of your damage added by void increases substantially, but the absolute damage you deal decreases because he... uh.. got magic resistance.
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Man alienware won't load at all for me  .
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On September 10 2010 04:16 Vlanitak wrote:most epic game ever
Poppy with 1 minion kill per minute? Does it make any sense to get 5 Rylais? There's stuff like Void Staff... Chalice on Panth. Also lol @ their Morgana, she didn't get to join the fun it seems.
EDIT: Duh forgot that he is manaless. Sucks, huh?
Still, a fully charged RoA gives more HP and the same AP
Will of the ancients also sounds good.
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Mogwai, you here?
I just bought Panth, and I see you've given up on him and cross out your guide.
no more hope for panth?
D:
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On September 10 2010 05:08 Kexx wrote:
Mogwai, you here?
I just bought Panth, and I see you've given up on him and cross out your guide.
no more hope for panth?
D:
not really that he gave up on him, more like his old guide doesnt really work anymore. Gotta play a more conservative (god help us) panth vs mog's crazy ass ad nuking style panth
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On September 10 2010 05:16 barbsq wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 05:08 Kexx wrote:
Mogwai, you here?
I just bought Panth, and I see you've given up on him and cross out your guide.
no more hope for panth?
D: not really that he gave up on him, more like his old guide doesnt really work anymore. Gotta play a more conservative (god help us) panth vs mog's crazy ass ad nuking style panth
so is CDR/Tanky the way to go so you can get out as many stuns as possible?
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On September 10 2010 00:40 Southlight wrote:
I think there're too many click and point heroes in LoL (Soraka, Taric, Garen, etc.) and not enough key skillshots. For example two of the strongest heroes in DotA when I still played were Lina and NA, both of whom were reliant on what amounted to a skillshot disable (Lina's stun obviously, but NA's stun had an extra AoE effect if you SS'd it and also worked as an escape/dodge). This results in bad players rocking the house with stupid heroes, dragging down the overall skill level of the game.
I also find the level of play in LoL pretty low overall. Part of it is the lack of an established competitive scene, but...
bad comparison... Lina's area stun covers a wide area, so really the amount of skill it took to land a hit is really not that high, and Nerubian assasins stun can be clicked on heroes and it goes auto aim mode, and hits multiple units easily if u position urself correctly, not really a skill shot skills... now butcher on the other hand, that shit does require a HIGH amount of skill and experience and also luck to master. and mirana's arrow is quite tough to get right as well especially with the terrain clipping animations some times screwing up the path of the arrow, other than that, most skill in DoTA is actually click and point like u said in LoL...
DoTA skillshot skill is more difficult because most skills hits creeps, some times even ur own creeps and really the amount of skillshot skills in DoTA isn't really alot. i do agree that LoL is alot more "softcore" or "easy" that DoTA, for example last hitting is a CRUCIAL skill to have in DoTA not jsut for farming but also for deny-ing, and u can imagine the how tough it can be when 4 guys in lane is fighting for every last hit possible. while in lol, it really didn't make as big of an impact is in DoTA, one more contributing factors is how u lose gold when u die in DoTA, if u die on a consistent basis don ever expect to get any strong items out.
for me, LoL is less stressful to play than DoTA since the amount of effort and skill required is much less, and i enjoyed team fights and overall flow of the game more in LoL. in DoTA mana management is important especially at the early phases of the game, don expect to spam more than 2-3 cycles of skills and expect to be able to do anything else, most of the time with heroes liek Lina, with early game items u can almost always only afford to do a single cycle or burst of spells then u run dry... which of course would rarely happen in LoL even in early game phase. and generally the cool down of skill in DoTA is longer. which makes the games feels dull for me. and of course u get less leaver, yes there is still leaver in LoL but trust me, its ALOT less than in DoTA games, due to the micro transaction thingy and the reconect to game features...
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On September 10 2010 05:19 Kexx wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 05:16 barbsq wrote:On September 10 2010 05:08 Kexx wrote:
Mogwai, you here?
I just bought Panth, and I see you've given up on him and cross out your guide.
no more hope for panth?
D: not really that he gave up on him, more like his old guide doesnt really work anymore. Gotta play a more conservative (god help us) panth vs mog's crazy ass ad nuking style panth so is CDR/Tanky the way to go so you can get out as many stuns as possible?
my jungle panth (which i shamelessly stole from mog) consists of wriggles, bruta, frozen, banshees, ghostblade, tho lots can be interchanged. Basically bruta+tank items is more or less the way to go (which is basically what you said). Get 1 point in hss @ lvl 2 for autocrit, then ignore it for the rest of the game.
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sigh....
New Panth Guide
Jungling
Runes:
9 Ar Pen Marks
9 Armor Seals
9 CDR Glyphs
2 Ar Pen Quint
1 Flat Damage Quint
Masteries:
1/14/15
Offensive (1):
1 Plentiful Bounty
Defensive (14):
3 Armor
3 Magic Resist
3 Strength of Spirit
2 Defensive Mastery
3 Harden Skin
Utility (15):
3 Good Hands
1 Sprint
4 Awareness
2 Meditation
2 Utility Mastery
3 Quickness
Summoner Spells:
Ghost
Smite
Items:
Cloth Armor + 5 HP Pots
Madred's Razor + Boots
Wriggles Lantern
Manamune
Brutalizer
Merc Treads
Banshee's Veil
Guardian Angel
Ghostblade
Skill Ordering:
Q E W Q Q R Q W Q W R W W E E R E E
Playing:
Open with Golem Buff, get teammates to defend you. Chug a HP pot when you first get hit and focus the big golem, throwing spears whenever possible. Chug another HP pot when the first is finished. Finish the camp, level up and go to wolves. Kill the big one first and then finish the camp, you should not need to use another potion yet. Go to Lizard Buff, chug a pot before you start and focus the Lizard, smite as soon as it's off CD so that you maximize your usage of HSS's passive. Chug another pot when the first is done and finish the camp. Use your last pot to stay high HP and look for a gank on mid or your lizard side lane. Pantheon is the strongest gank in the game at this timing, you'll usually be able to get FB if the opponents are pushing any lanes or if your ganking a lane that already has a stun on it. After your gank attempt, do small golems -> wraiths -> wolves, stopping anywhere in there if you're low HP. Get razors, a ward if they have a fast dragon jungler, and HP pots. do another golems -> wraiths -> wolves sweep, blue buff should respawn here, take it again, yadda yadda yadda, it's all ezpz here.
Look for ganks a lot, that's pantheon's main strength as a jungler. With red buff, you have a stun that lets you immediately flash to them and apply lizard debuff starting at level 3. Sound familiar? that's cause it's warwick's fucking ult that makes him a good ganker, but instead you're getting it at level 3. Ward their buffs and dragon religiously and coordinate ganks using your teammates and your ult when they go for things you've warded.
Laning
Runes:
9 Ar Pen Marks
9 Mana Regen/Level Seals
9 Mana Regen/Level Glyphs
3 Ar Pen Quints
Masteries:
0/14/16 OR 0/15/15
Defensive (14):
3 Armor
3 Magic Resist
3 Strength of Spirit
2 Defensive Mastery
3 Harden Skin
Utility (15):
3 Good Hands
1 Sprint
4 Awareness
3 Meditation
1 Utility Mastery
3 Quickness
The last point is either in Utility Mastery or improved Revive, depending on your summoner spells.
Summoner Spells:
Ghost (non-negotiable)
Ignite or Revive
Ignite gives you a stronger FB threat and general laning presence, Revive is an extremely powerful endgame tool if you use it correctly. I still prefer ignite, but I begrudgingly accept that Revive is viable and actually quite good on Panth.
Items:
boots + 3 hp pots
brutalizer
Ghostblade + a new brutalizer OR Bloodthirster*
Merc Treads
Guardian Angel
Banshee's Veil, another appropriate tanking item or whatever you didn't get between ghostblade and bloodthirster.
*(partially preference, partially game dependent. Ghostblade snowballs harder vs. failing opposition and lets you stay fully ahead of their armor, Bloodthirster lets you farm longer and push harder after teamfights + does better damage vs. people who stay ahead of your armor penetration)
Skill Ordering:
Q W Q E Q R Q W Q W R W W E E R E E
Playing:
Take a solo, preferably top. Zone aggressively at level 1. You're probably the strongest level 1 champion in the game, so boss them around and force them out of exp range. Don't neglect last hitting, but also don't underestimate how important it is that you screw over your opponent. It's more important to screw over their carry than it is to get your pantheon those 5-10 extra creep kills. When they're aware of the spacing of your moves and are appropriately ducking and weaving around it, do W -> Q -> Auto attack for combo harassing. When they're unaware of the spacing, beat the hell out of them with Q -> W -> Auto attack -> Auto attack -> pursue and throw another Q. Mostly you just wanna do Q to conserve mana, but that's how you combo with him. In teamfights, your job is to explode single squishy targets. You are useless vs. tanks, so don't bother, just wade through the teamfight or pop out of the brush or ult in behind them and chase that Kog/Ez/MF/Trist down and rape him/her.
Use your ult wisely. Err on the side of leading their escape too much so that they have to run back towards your teammates to avoid the slow/damage of your ult rather than awkwardly undershooting and letting them get away. I don't care if you don't get an assist for it, if they have to about face and eat a sion shield and die to avoid your ult, you've succeeded with it.
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On September 10 2010 04:49 spinesheath wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 10 2010 04:16 Vlanitak wrote:most epic game ever Poppy with 1 minion kill per minute? Does it make any sense to get 5 Rylais? There's stuff like Void Staff... Chalice on Panth. Also lol @ their Morgana, she didn't get to join the fun it seems. EDIT: Duh forgot that he is manaless. Sucks, huh? Still, a fully charged RoA gives more HP and the same AP Will of the ancients also sounds good.
It does? well still it seems a safer choice to go Rylais scepters (889ap by the end of the game with an elixir).
Each Rylais gives 80ap+500hp=80ap+(500/25)+500hp+(80*2)=100ap+660hp
5 = (100ap*5)+(660hp*5)= 500ap+3300hp
500ap+Zhoneya's ring=(500ap+120ap)*1.25=775ap without masteries and runes.
also hp bonus ends at: 3540hp
RoA takes 15 min to fully "charge" and then it provides:
650hp+80ap=650hp+160hp+80ap+25ap=810hp+105ap
5x RoA= (810*5)hp+(105*5)ap=4050hp+525ap
add zhoneya's: (525+120)*1,25= 806.25 before masteries and runes. So it's 30ap better.
4290hp bonus in total and that is really a huge difference :O
Yup you are right, but for the RoA to deliver more power it has to charge. and will I have time to charge 5 of them? really depends on how good I can farm and kill I guess. I should probably try 5x RoA or 4xRoA+1RCS maybe that would be awesome? testing it tomorrow I guess.
The reason for it being the most epic game ever (atleast to me) was that it was never really decided until I got a legendary streak.And that was about the 1h and 5 min mark, and even then we had a hard time to get their inhib and nexus down because of how well the other team teamplayed and killed some of us. It was just so much fun and I have never laughed so much while we played a game (Anril ulti into their main to kill the nexus, but dies to super minions of the other team because the inhibs were up  )
@however asked for the length of the team fights: usually they lasted like 4-5 sec
today this game
on sunday: ESL!
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On September 10 2010 06:32 Mogwai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +sigh....
New Panth Guide
Jungling
Runes:
9 Ar Pen Marks
9 Armor Seals
9 CDR Glyphs
2 Ar Pen Quint
1 Flat Damage Quint
Masteries:
1/14/15
Offensive (1):
1 Plentiful Bounty
Defensive (14):
3 Armor
3 Magic Resist
3 Strength of Spirit
2 Defensive Mastery
3 Harden Skin
Utility (15):
3 Good Hands
1 Sprint
4 Awareness
2 Meditation
2 Utility Mastery
3 Quickness
Summoner Spells:
Ghost
Smite
Items:
Cloth Armor + 5 HP Pots
Madred's Razor + Boots
Wriggles Lantern
Manamune
Brutalizer
Merc Treads
Banshee's Veil
Guardian Angel
Ghostblade
Skill Ordering:
Q E W Q Q R Q W Q W R W W E E R E E
Playing:
Open with Golem Buff, get teammates to defend you. Chug a HP pot when you first get hit and focus the big golem, throwing spears whenever possible. Chug another HP pot when the first is finished. Finish the camp, level up and go to wolves. Kill the big one first and then finish the camp, you should not need to use another potion yet. Go to Lizard Buff, chug a pot before you start and focus the Lizard, smite as soon as it's off CD so that you maximize your usage of HSS's passive. Chug another pot when the first is done and finish the camp. Use your last pot to stay high HP and look for a gank on mid or your lizard side lane. Pantheon is the strongest gank in the game at this timing, you'll usually be able to get FB if the opponents are pushing any lanes or if your ganking a lane that already has a stun on it. After your gank attempt, do small golems -> wraiths -> wolves, stopping anywhere in there if you're low HP. Get razors, a ward if they have a fast dragon jungler, and HP pots. do another golems -> wraiths -> wolves sweep, blue buff should respawn here, take it again, yadda yadda yadda, it's all ezpz here.
Look for ganks a lot, that's pantheon's main strength as a jungler. With red buff, you have a stun that lets you immediately flash to them and apply lizard debuff starting at level 3. Sound familiar? that's cause it's warwick's fucking ult that makes him a good ganker, but instead you're getting it at level 3. Ward their buffs and dragon religiously and coordinate ganks using your teammates and your ult when they go for things you've warded.
Laning
Runes:
9 Ar Pen Marks
9 Mana Regen/Level Seals
9 Mana Regen/Level Glyphs
3 Ar Pen Quints
Masteries:
0/14/16 OR 0/15/15
Defensive (14):
3 Armor
3 Magic Resist
3 Strength of Spirit
2 Defensive Mastery
3 Harden Skin
Utility (15):
3 Good Hands
1 Sprint
4 Awareness
3 Meditation
1 Utility Mastery
3 Quickness
The last point is either in Utility Mastery or improved Revive, depending on your summoner spells.
Summoner Spells:
Ghost (non-negotiable)
Ignite or Revive
Ignite gives you a stronger FB threat and general laning presence, Revive is an extremely powerful endgame tool if you use it correctly. I still prefer ignite, but I begrudgingly accept that Revive is viable and actually quite good on Panth.
Items:
boots + 3 hp pots
brutalizer
Ghostblade + a new brutalizer OR Bloodthirster*
Merc Treads
Guardian Angel
Banshee's Veil, another appropriate tanking item or whatever you didn't get between ghostblade and bloodthirster.
*(partially preference, partially game dependent. Ghostblade snowballs harder vs. failing opposition and lets you stay fully ahead of their armor, Bloodthirster lets you farm longer and push harder after teamfights + does better damage vs. people who stay ahead of your armor penetration)
Skill Ordering:
Q W Q E Q R Q W Q W R W W E E R E E
Playing:
Take a solo, preferably top. Zone aggressively at level 1. You're probably the strongest level 1 champion in the game, so boss them around and force them out of exp range. Don't neglect last hitting, but also don't underestimate how important it is that you screw over your opponent. It's more important to screw over their carry than it is to get your pantheon those 5-10 extra creep kills. When they're aware of the spacing of your moves and are appropriately ducking and weaving around it, do W -> Q -> Auto attack for combo harassing. When they're unaware of the spacing, beat the hell out of them with Q -> W -> Auto attack -> Auto attack -> pursue and throw another Q. Mostly you just wanna do Q to conserve mana, but that's how you combo with him. In teamfights, your job is to explode single squishy targets. You are useless vs. tanks, so don't bother, just wade through the teamfight or pop out of the brush or ult in behind them and chase that Kog/Ez/MF/Trist down and rape him/her.
Use your ult wisely. Err on the side of leading their escape too much so that they have to run back towards your teammates to avoid the slow/damage of your ult rather than awkwardly undershooting and letting them get away. I don't care if you don't get an assist for it, if they have to about face and eat a sion shield and die to avoid your ult, you've succeeded with it.
thanks 
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Leave it to Mogwai to be awesome at all things ever
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EPT
