|
On September 10 2010 02:21 Phunkapotamus wrote:
On the topic of HoN's complexity:
There are more gameplay mechanics for one to eek out an advantage in HoN:
Bottle
Runes
Line of Sight/Tree Juking (not unlike brush juking, but more complex since brushes are a binary system)
Portal Key ( Think Flash, but on a short cooldown and 3x as long)
Denies
Collision detection is rigid, and collision areas are smaller (hard to hit)
Animation Desyncing
Faster attack animations, and quicker cooldown animation cancelling
The point is: The more gameplay mechanics one can exploit, the more complex the game is. It's just more things that a skilled player can use to their advantage- and that a lesser player can drop the ball on. There's more to separate player skill.
That said, when I switched from HoN (1750PSR as a casual) to LoL (only lvl 15- just started a few weeks ago), I was literally "loling at how easy it was to play. I was also "loling" at how terrible the people playing were. However, I don't hold the players against the game. LoL certainly takes skill, but the gap between the "really really good" players and the "really good" players is much smaller than what's found in DotA/HoN. Hell, the gap between the "really really good" players and the "terribad" players is also much smaller in LoL than it is HoN. It's not that the "really really good" players are bad, it's that the game has a lower skill cap and thus more people can compete at a high level. That's definitely a success in Riot's eyes, but I'm sure a failure in a lot of competitive HoN/DotA player's eyes.
Why do I play LoL now then? I want to come home from work and play a game with friends for fun. I want to face-roll and still enjoy myself because I don't have to worry about eeking each advantage out of the system. I also enjoy the game design and art direction of LoL more- it certainly 'feels' better than both DotA and HoN, but that's just icing on the cake thus far.
On another note: Holy crap Miss Fortune has great zoning capability! When she gets just one stack of her speed passive going, it's very intimidating to lane against her in early game. A speed boost of that advantage early on lets her decide positioning. Very cool. Basically, during the lane phase, every 7 seconds she gets to 'make a move' virtually uncontested.
Just because you are essentially making a list of differences, doesn't mean all of those actually add to the skill difference of the game(also the attack animation thing is bogus, some champs in dota had animations that took a lifetime, and animation canceling is prevalent in both).
The absolute biggest difference between the 2 games is the relationship between abilities/mana costs. Skill usage in DotA is always at a premium, and it makes it very obvious who has superior management of their abilities. You could probably debate the skill difference that creates(DotA will more readily punish you for an improper skill use, whereas LoL punishes you less but gives you far more chances to screw up, the punishment does add up).
In fact, the gameplay of LoL in general ends up being faster, and thus involving more overall decisions in a given game. It's hard to say 1 game is 'harder' because despite being the same genre they are actually very much different, requiring far different playstyles(I know that dude will rage over my usage of that word,lulz).
|
On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good
By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack.
|
I also would like to hear about this "skill cap" in LoL. A game that requires immense coordination between 5 people and interaction with 5 enemies and a wealth of "NPCs", I don't see how anyone could believe that there is a reachable skill cap.
|
I would talk about how Pantheon smacks Vlad around for the first few levels, but the last time I did that I got completely worked over by a Vlad and cost my team the game so I'll just shut up :p.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 10 2010 02:52 L wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack.
I dont get Pool until laning phase is over, id rather have the dmg from E. I leave pool at level 1 until i have to max it. maybe thats why i see so many vlads do horrible dmg, do a lot of people max W after Q? gimping yourself just so you can play stupidly.
|
I think most Vlads get an early pool to avoid messy deaths (Mog actually got pwned cuz he didn't expect a level 2 pool IIRC >_>) but that's about it, the same way Trists have a tendency to get a relatively early jump for safety's sake.
|
On September 10 2010 02:55 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 02:52 L wrote:On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack. I dont get Pool until laning phase is over, id rather have the dmg from E. I leave pool at level 1 until i have to max it. maybe thats why i see so many vlads do horrible dmg, do a lot of people max W after Q? gimping yourself just so you can play stupidly.
agreed
skill build for me looks something like Q W Q E Q R Q E Q E QQEQEQEQEQEQEEQEQWWW
pool length doesn't increase with level, so it's not going to help you "escape more" or anything like that. E is also really good early cause of the low cooldown if you get in a skirmish (as long as it's above level 1 you'll come out ahead by spamming E)
|
On September 10 2010 02:54 Mogwai wrote:
I would talk about how Pantheon smacks Vlad around for the first few levels, but the last time I did that I got completely worked over by a Vlad and cost my team the game so I'll just shut up :p.
everyone smacks vlad around for the first 4 levels imo. it's his only real weak point in the game.
|
On September 10 2010 02:44 Brees wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 02:32 Southlight wrote:On September 10 2010 02:29 Brees wrote:
this would be valid if the same korean group + hotshot didnt win pretty much everything. If there was only a small skill gap then you would see a larger competitive scene. thats a part of the reason i think the competitive scene is so small...the skill gap is actually fairly large On a related note, do you think this is because of lilballz? I mentioned to Mog a week ago-ish that I felt like the best player in the game is lilballz because of how consistently he puts his mark on a game, moreso than anyone else, because he's so goddamn good at jungling. It feels to me like the HSGG/GJ/jijis of the world are a dime a dozen (replace any of them with the Xpecials etc. and you'd look pretty much the same) but the sheer impact of lilballz is insane. i think its because of their understanding of the game before anyone else. Who invented the poke/heal metagame? jiji's premade. (this is around when i started to hear about these guys/play them) only people ive never actually beaten, probably like 0-10 vs them in normals. they can play pretty much any character/role at a high level. they know how to abuse comps/picks and counterpick (you hear them discuss it in vent all the time) etc junglers are only scary if you forget about them, nowadays you'll have your jungler ward top brush/dragon and one of the bottom 2 go back early to ward bot brush in a competitive game so junglers actually have a really hard time ganking. i think its more because of how overpowered some characters can be with adequate farm that dont have the opportunity to do so in lane (udyr/amumu/olaf, etc)
Unfortunately, Hotshot is so BM that it turns a lot of people off of learning the actual intelligent things he does by listening to him. The first thing I thought of when you mentioned understanding is Hotshot going off on some people in a game he was shitting up as Blitz: "I have the mind of a pro. You have the mind of a noob."
It's really sad, he's probably the best player that streams regularly and he's one of the worst possible ambassadors for the game.
|
Ugh why the fuck do I duo q with rando's in the TL channel.
Wtf is wrong with me lol
|
Hotshots an extremely nerdy idiot. I've seen him do the absolute stupidest shit in his stream, then a few games later go off on someone for dying too early. Such a hypocrite.
|
On September 10 2010 03:08 Haemonculus wrote:
Ugh why the fuck do I duo q with rando's in the TL channel.
Wtf is wrong with me lol
?
Because its kind of our community channel? I'd definitely rather duo queue with people from there then somewhere else. Lol @ "Rando" what a lame insult.
|
On September 10 2010 03:01 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 02:55 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 02:52 L wrote:On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack. I dont get Pool until laning phase is over, id rather have the dmg from E. I leave pool at level 1 until i have to max it. maybe thats why i see so many vlads do horrible dmg, do a lot of people max W after Q? gimping yourself just so you can play stupidly. agreed skill build for me looks something like Q W Q E Q R Q E Q E QQEQEQEQEQEQEEQEQWWW pool length doesn't increase with level, so it's not going to help you "escape more" or anything like that. E is also really good early cause of the low cooldown if you get in a skirmish (as long as it's above level 1 you'll come out ahead by spamming E)
You agree with him but you get W on level 2? Makes no sense to me. He says he doesn't get pool at all until the laning phase is over.
I would definitely get it by level 7-10. Basically as soon as you can expect global ults and teleporting casters raining in on you. Though nobody does that because Vlad has one of the best escapes in the game...
|
On September 10 2010 03:01 Southlight wrote:
I think most Vlads get an early pool to avoid messy deaths (Mog actually got pwned cuz he didn't expect a level 2 pool IIRC >_>) but that's about it, the same way Trists have a tendency to get a relatively early jump for safety's sake.
well, it was less that he had pool and more that he used it super late when he was at HP:DEAD and the next creep wave was arriving to pound on me for pursuing him across the lane. Level 2 pool is not unusual, not kneejerking with it once you suspect you're in danger or trying to time it vs. a spear is. uhg, w/e, over aggression on my part... I'm trying to cut back on it, lol.
|
On September 10 2010 03:11 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:08 Haemonculus wrote:
Ugh why the fuck do I duo q with rando's in the TL channel.
Wtf is wrong with me lol ? Because its kind of our community channel? I'd definitely rather duo queue with people from there then somewhere else. Lol @ "Rando" what a lame insult.
I'm just raging. I open 3-0 as Morgana vs ez. Like I'm totally shutting this guy down and wrecking him. I have the tower down within 12 minutes.
Person I picked up from TL is 0-5 already.
Just.... fuck I hate how one person can lose a game so easily in LoL.
|
Marshall Islands3404 Posts
On September 10 2010 03:11 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:01 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 02:55 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 02:52 L wrote:On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack. I dont get Pool until laning phase is over, id rather have the dmg from E. I leave pool at level 1 until i have to max it. maybe thats why i see so many vlads do horrible dmg, do a lot of people max W after Q? gimping yourself just so you can play stupidly. agreed skill build for me looks something like Q W Q E Q R Q E Q E QQEQEQEQEQEQEEQEQWWW pool length doesn't increase with level, so it's not going to help you "escape more" or anything like that. E is also really good early cause of the low cooldown if you get in a skirmish (as long as it's above level 1 you'll come out ahead by spamming E) You agree with him but you get W on level 2? Makes no sense to me. He says he doesn't get pool at all until the laning phase is over. I would definitely get it by level 7-10. Basically as soon as you can expect global ults and teleporting casters raining in on you. Though nobody does that because Vlad has one of the best escapes in the game...
thats why I do it  simply the fact that you are Vlad means you can get away with pumping more damage for that all important mid/top kill. people see you and think "oh he has flash and pool, no point ganking him" when in reality I dont. btw offensive flash ----> hemo + fully charged tides + Tranfusion + ignite combo is brutal.
|
On September 10 2010 02:41 GogoKodo wrote:
At level 15 how do you know anything about really really good players, or even really good players? Not meant to be a slight, just curious at how people are getting a look at higher level play. At lvl 15 you haven't ever even played a ranked game. I suppose if you have higher level friends you could be playing practice matches with them, but that's still probably not a great indicator of the really really good vs just the really good.
I like to think that I have good competitive perception. I mean, I've completely inundated my life in competitive gaming. I'm a game programmer for a living. I may not have experienced the best of the best myself, but I've seen my share of LoL tournaments to see what people are doing.
The original discussion a few pages back was on LoL's complexity, and I was pointing out how more game mechanics equate to greater complexity.
I then went to say that less complex games have a lower skill cap, much like SC2 versus SC1 in terms of exploitable game mechanics. My point isn't that the best LoL players are bad. In fact, they're damn good. However, they're good at something that isn't as complex as the other DotA games.
I'll use SC2 as an example: In the future you'll still see the expected players in the top 5%: Idra, White/DuckloadRA, the OGS crew, etc. These people would and do have similar success in SC1. However, SC2's next 10% would be filled with people who probably wouldn't fit in the same percentile for SC1. I'm not talking ladder rankings, since we all know Blizzard's points are silly. Just imagine some arbitrary tier list of players. Mid-High Tier SC1 players would enjoy Top Tier success in SC2. Likewise, Top Tier SC2 players might not enjoy top tier SC1 success, but you can expect the very very top to be similar across the board.
On a completely unrelated note: I played a random unranked game in LoL on the same team as a guy named "DuckloadRA" (I have screenshots!). He wouldn't talk or acknowledge me questioning his name. But he was pretty decent with Morgana and doing things the average LoL player does not do. Perhaps it was him! :D Or perhaps it was one of you TL folk masquerading as him! Admit it whomever you are!
|
Vlad is extremely squishy at first levels, I always go for Q - E - Q - W - Q - R, prioritizing Q -> R -> E.
Not even level 5 pool with blue can make you pool twice if you're focused, you're gonna die most likely if people aren't idiots or your team isn't letting them to do it. Pool is either a successful escape, a really bad starting slow, tactical finisher, no choice-skill to deal bit more damage or mob cleaning/health regen if you're lower than 50%.
At least it was my experience from normal games as much as I played vlad and could call him my main with malzahar now taking his place most likely.
And honestly vlad is I-Win button for me. I choose him when I really want to roll hard.
|
On September 10 2010 03:11 spinesheath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 03:01 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 02:55 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 02:52 L wrote:On September 10 2010 01:56 Brees wrote:On September 10 2010 01:51 gtrsrs wrote:On September 10 2010 01:45 Brees wrote:
lol yea people think vlad's Q wins the lane but its really his auto-attack. he has a very high base dmg and quick animation. isn't his base damage exceptionally low? i feel like it's about 45 when i play him unless i pick up doran's sword yea my mistake, not the base damage but the increase per level. 3 is pretty high for a mage, so by lvl 9 when you are in complete control of the lane its pretty good By level 7-9, your Q starts doing the heavy lifting. Before that its more the fact that you have W to make any risky shit they pull useless that gives you the most lane leverage, not your autoattack. I dont get Pool until laning phase is over, id rather have the dmg from E. I leave pool at level 1 until i have to max it. maybe thats why i see so many vlads do horrible dmg, do a lot of people max W after Q? gimping yourself just so you can play stupidly. agreed skill build for me looks something like Q W Q E Q R Q E Q E QQEQEQEQEQEQEEQEQWWW pool length doesn't increase with level, so it's not going to help you "escape more" or anything like that. E is also really good early cause of the low cooldown if you get in a skirmish (as long as it's above level 1 you'll come out ahead by spamming E) You agree with him but you get W on level 2? Makes no sense to me. He says he doesn't get pool at all until the laning phase is over. I would definitely get it by level 7-10. Basically as soon as you can expect global ults and teleporting casters raining in on you. Though nobody does that because Vlad has one of the best escapes in the game...
1 level of W early is an "oh-shit card"
by the time a mid is done laning (level 7-11) you'll have plenty of levels of E, and besides level 1 E does negligible damage, and since you don't want to trade hits as vlad before level 3/4 especially if your q is on CD you can afford a level of W, the anti-jungler button
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
