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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
 . In that case I suppose brutalizer is probably a pretty cost effective investment on Pantheon after you get to a certain base damage.I tried a few Amumu games opening cloth armor + 5 hp pots last night to go straight for HoGs instead of getting a philo stone first, and I gotta say, I really really missed the regen... You can't always get golem buff, and I could really feel the mana limitation when I didn't have it and I also found myself tearing through more potions when jungling. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Just 'cause I finished a bit of work and I'm in waiting mode: Ashe guide! Even though she's a bad hero until the gold passive gets changed into an active skill. Masteries are like 3 crit, 1 ap/level 4 cooldown, 3 attack speed 3 armor pen 3 damage 3 crit damage 1 5% damage buff 3 mana/hp regen, 1 teleport 4 exp boost 1 mana regen boost Always take Flash/Teleport. Flash is good for survival, Teleport is great for defending/pushing/supporting. It's incredibly satisfying to see teammates struggling in a fight in a lane, then you teleport in, ult, volley, and your team takes them both down. Open Long Sword + Pot (two if you feel like waiting 10 seconds after creep wave) if you're confident you can get away without taking much damage and you're not in dire need of a Banshee Veil this game (or it can wait a long time). This should be your ideal opening, but sometimes you won't be able to do it. Open Sapphire + two Pots if you'll need a fast Banshee this game. Open Regrowth if you're going to lane against at least one enemy that can harass you with ease or you'll need attrition to beat them out of the lane (Trist, Soraka, Kat, etc.) Long Sword -> Brutalizer Sapphire -> Catalyst Regrowth -> Do whatever you want (no need to make Philo Stone, just hold onto the Regrowth and sell it if you actually cap out on item space) Skill build almost always starts volley, unless you're in a two-man lane where you're going to be needed for a snare more than damage (rare, but if you're with like a Blitz better to have level 1 frost). After that it's up to how you're doing in lane and how you're intending to spend the next few levels. If you're laned against Trist, for instance, mid-lane with Regrowth, you're better off going Volley -> Gold -> Volley -> Gold etc. because that snare won't really help. Especially considering you opened a dead-end item, you're better off playing relatively passively and squeezing out every bit of gold you can (I know the passive doesn't give much, but it's better than nothing). Get frost the moment you anticipate needing to engage in ganks etc., but the later you hold it the better. Otherwise normally if you're winning lanes you're better off going Volley -> Frost -> Volley -> whatever, because Frost lets you play very aggressively and even go for kills against crappy lane-strength heroes like Sivir. And of course if you're laned 1v1 solo mid against Sivir just open level 1 Frost and own that bitch. Because there's nothing she can do. As hardcountered as possibly can be. Just worth mentioning: the reason why Ashe is so wicked in lane is because her attack range is one of the best in the game. If you're comfortable with high-apm clicking, you can abuse her range to your heart's content; it forces other players to dance against you, and your higher range constantly gives you better initiative. Dance forward, then pick off a low-hp creep, dance back, etc. And every now and then if they fail at dancing you can hit them. It's a lot harder to have to reactively dance to prevent taking damage from you, and still last hit. And if you have good reflexes, any time they actually land a hit on you, you can turn and hit them back, ensuring you'll always have at least an exchange of hits. This fails against a few heroes, most notably Trist, who pretty much has the same range as you. And because Trists usually open Vamp you have trouble winning a war of attrition. I'm actually wanting to test if level 1/2 Ashe can out-damage a level 1/2 Trist, because if she can that'd be the way you win. Usual ideal item build for me is Brutalizer -> Cleaver (Treads), then usually I just dick around and go Last Whisper and something like Exec. But I've been picking LW only because of its attack speed (usually no one has enough armor to make LW worth it, considering BC = 60 + 15(Brut) + 18(Runes) = ignores up to 83 armor. If you want to use something else (like Malady) then by all means. Then I finish with Banshee and Phantom, and you'd be surprised how many games you can actually reach most of these items. Well you'll probably not finish Phantom (games usually end right about when I finish Zeal) but her farming speed is actually quite good even if you're not really trying. I know stuff like IE/LW is better for DPS, but I don't think Ashe is a very good DPSer. She's better off being a free Frozen/Cleaver for teammates, and ideally you want like a DPS Sivir/Trist/Warwick/something like that to actually output pinpoint damage for you. That's why it's better IMO to maximize laning power (Brutalizer) and then assist DPS output (fast Cleaver). You just want to run around in the back volleying and snaring everything (very aggravating to play against as a Tank, because it messes up your ability to ideally initiate), and you keep and use your ult to stun a key character, like Twitch. There's no point trying to land sexy shots - I think even point blank she stuns for like 2 seconds, and traveling half the screen will bump the duration to like 2.5-3 seconds. Too many Ashes think it's awesome to land multi-screen distance shots, miss, and don't have her ult when you should have it. It's better to land every single Arrow in a game than to land a couple sexy shots and miss like 15. Every Arrow can and should lead to either a kill or a save. It's damn strong, and along with her laning power is the only reason why she's usable at all in medium-level games. You should wince and cry when you miss your ult. It should never happen. And you should sit in a corner wearing a dunce cap when you do miss. When all's said and done, that build can do a decent job carrying your team anyways, because pinging people for 0 or negative armor with decent damage/attack speed is still pretty good, but she'll never match heroes like Twitch or Trist or Corki when it comes down to it, so there's no point directly competing. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
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mrgerry
United States1508 Posts
On March 08 2010 22:02 Unentschieden wrote: Pots give 100 per 5.They are IDEAL if the 200HP they heal total is a significant amount for you. They are incredibly good when starting out since you want to stay active in your lane, if you are hit for 400 at level 2 you´d still have to B with Pendant but not with Pots. The Pendant works if you never are 200 HP "behind" you opponents (but in that case you´d be better off with boots) AND you want to build something with the Pendant. FoN: You are right it´s about the MR and Regen since the Movespeed is honeslty not necessary with Singeds Glue and Ult. Thus how about using a vastly more cost effective item: Spirit Visage. It costs only a fraction, also offers MR and a 30% increase in Regen and Healeffects. Singed doesn´t need peak regen ALL the Time but when he engages the enemy/TowerTanks. ergo when he uses his ult. Spirit Visage gives more Regen during the Ult than FoN gives. The CDR is also nice. Still FoN is a stronger Item/Slot and synergizes with SV, so I recommend it as Luxury Item. Warmogs is one of the most INEFFICIENT items in the game, it´s only worth it when it´s full - that takes 125 Minion kills - how often do you get that many in a whole game let alone after buying Warmogs? The entire point of Singeds Passive is that he DOESN´T need straight HP items. You might notice that there is no item left in my build with Regroeth Pendant in it. So after Rod, Boots and Spirit Visage what´s next? Rylaids Scepter thats what. Like any Tank, if they don´t pose a Threath they are just going to be ignored, thus defeating the point. Rylaids not only gives him considerable Damage but the Slow WORKS on Poison Trail and it´s by far the BEST ability to use it on. No other AOE applies the slow constantly. It guarrantees that a Target that is once Poisoned STAYS that way, there is no way anyone can just run out of it with the slow effect. If you expect a piss easy lane don´t buy Pots. Pots are NOT for easy lanes but lanes where things can go wery wrong very fast (every lane with approachingly competent Players) Any game over 30 minutes ill be hitting the 150+ cs range. Singed is an incredible farmer and if you are having a strong early game farm and killwise Warmog's will make u absolutely invincible paired with FoN. You are looking at 270-275 hp per 5 w/o ult on once you hit these 3 items. Especially with the new xp system I've been playing an extremely farming oriented gameplay style. Try it on leaguecraft look at Singed effective health for the two categories and compared it to any other 3 items for the same gold. Spirit visage passive just isn't that great for Singed. It will only net you an extra 25-30 hp/5 with ult on. I'm still not completely sold on rylai's scepter on singed. It's such an expensive item for what I'm getting when I already have an aoe slow of rape for teamfights. My main goal in a teamfight is to run in first and force them to waste burst on me while im smacking their carry. Having my poison slow just doesnt seem to help me with my purpose for that kind of cost. By piss easy lane I more mean if I'm with a 5 man and know we are running a strong setup. When you solo queue with singed you could end up against some really shit lanes. Last week I stuck in a lane till lvl 7 just on my regrowth with an annie versus an ashe and ryze (probably the worst combo I could ask for). They brought me down to 100 range twice then I would just regen my way back with a level up and my lovely 28 hp per 5. If I woulda went sapphire 2 hp pots, my pots would run out at lvl 4 going for farm. I could stay in lane till 7 on sapphire 2 hp pots but I would have no farm. Singed with no farm is not a very useful singed. If you run sapphire 2 hp pots your regen with the mastery that gives regen based on mana you are at 16 per 5. So it takes 166 seconds for it to become more useful. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
I'd assume with her skill set that you'd be better off going: 3 crit rate, 1 AP/level (assuming no smite or exhaust :p) 3 CD redux, 4 AS (or switch if you want) 3 armor pen 3 brute force 3 crit damage 1 havoc since you do a bunch of regular attacking with her. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
Magic Pen is good for volley and her ult, both of which actually do a pretty significant amount of damage. Although I never did figure out if Volley does P or M damage. Either way 15% pen on her ult is awesome. More significant than a paltry 3 damage, anyways. 250/425/600 (+1) magic damage Edit: I'd point out that when I ran 9/0/21 (which is still feasible, I just like laning with auto-attack more now), I also ran 4CD/1 pen. Late-game when your ult's doing 600 damage AoE, especially if you're in "I don't care who I hit" mode, then 600 + 15% pen on an AoE is a good chunk of damage. Edit2: Ashe 43.44 (+2.85) Corki 49 (+3) (+10% from passive) Trist 42 (+3) Twitch 49.26 (3.15) Teemo 45.7 (2.81) ^-- to explain why Ashe is the worst, aside from normal number-crunching, Corki gets +10% from passive. Trist gets like 100% attack speed for 5 seconds, making her damage output essentially double. Twitch has a gay stacking poison. Teemo also has a poison, though slightly less gay because it doesn't stack. Ashe slows. And gets gold, when she kills creep. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
as for the magic penetration thing... volley is physical damage as far as I can tell. Again, it's just a small boost to your ult, which you only get to use once every minute or so. I don't really feel like doing all the math for how much of an expected benefit we're talking on your ult, but I think you're better off specing towards the skills you use all the time, rather than a single skill that you maybe get to use 10-15 times in a game if you're lucky. EDIT: oh yea, and her passive gold thingie totally also triggers when she kills a hero ^_^ | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
It's 20+ damage after a certain point (~80) MR, which would be 7 normal hits as per auto-attack based on brute. And yeah, it does look like Volley = physical, which means it procs with runes and Brutalizer, which definitely changes what I think about MPen15% O_O Edit: It does? ROFL. Still useless piece of junk, though. God they need to change that, so she doesn't have two damn passives. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
-I like physical damage. -I dislike big bad Ult's with massive CDs. I always choke with Fiddle's Ult for example. -_- -Going for a mix of AttackDmg/AttackSpd/Crit%/MoveSpd/HP -I can handle Skill shot spells. -I like being a support. I do not so well alone, but I team up decent and push creep pretty good. -I already play Sivir, lol. -I prefer ranged, but melee is cool too. I was thinking Nasus, as I already have him, and he seems like my ticket. Maybe that metal asshole Mord though? I ain't sure but I do grow a bit tired of Sivir and want to pack a little more punch so I can get some kills, as well as being an assist machine. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
the like 20+ damage = 7 auto-attacks analysis is also sorta flawed in that you're just analysing their usefulness in the same fight, and ignoring the benefit of having early brute force. For comparison sake, at level 1, brute force is > 6% increase to your physical damage, which is providing a better early benefit than havok, and a pretty comparable benefit to your volleys. I dunno, it just seems like a more versatile mastery setup for a character that mostly relies on auto-attack for doing damage *shrugs*. Also, that extra 1 damage gets to benefit from your commitment to armor penetration and affects your volley and becomes a bit over 2 damage with your auto-crit on your first attack, whereas the magic pen stuff is off your character's focus and has no non-ult synergy. And, heck, talking about a ~ 10 damage difference difference in the first 3 seconds of a group fight vs. a 1 damage difference on all your attacks and volleys throughout the whole game... brute force just seems better to me. OK, I'm done beating a dead horse. :p EDIT: @ the poster above me, ashe actually fits a bunch of your bill there :p (skill shot, low CD ult, ranged DPS, best in support situation, mostly physical damage). corki, twitch, tristana are all very high tier ranged DPSers worth more consideration if you want to be more competitive. Jax does all that stuff exceptionally too. Nasus is a solid choice though, so if you like the way you usually see Nasus players play, go for it. | ||
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Southlight
United States11768 Posts
I still up plentiful bounty early when I have the chance to. I just think she'd be much better if that were an active skill that increased her DPS or SOMEthing. Instead she has two passive skills, which makes her only use her ult, really. Which is okay, but it drops her to a tier more like Warwick, considering it's a single-target stun. At the very least I'd like it if her arrow was an AoE stun, so she'd at least be something like Annie/Amumu/Alist if the perfect situation arose (I've landed so many Arrows on stacks of enemies, but only one, random guy would be stunned). The extra gold gain is quite nice, but it's definitely what makes her such an "average" hero. Edit: Although Ashe + TF would be pretty sick, hahahah. Rollllllllllllllllling in cash! | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
![[image loading]](http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4549/pantheoncarry.jpg) gotta love when you get rolling early with Pantheon, cause holy fuck does he output damage in team fights with fast BTs. Nunu was a real champ about keeping me bloodboiled too, which seemed to be the only reason we ever pushed towers. At the end, I was on double elixers (red and green) on top of that item build with the BTs maxed, I was doing like 380+ base damage with good armor penetration and hitting champions for well over 1K with full heartseeker. | ||
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pokeyAA
United States936 Posts
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Unentschieden
Germany1471 Posts
On March 09 2010 01:51 mrgerry wrote: Any game over 30 minutes ill be hitting the 150+ cs range. Singed is an incredible farmer and if you are having a strong early game farm and killwise Warmog's will make u absolutely invincible paired with FoN. You are looking at 270-275 hp per 5 w/o ult on once you hit these 3 items. Especially with the new xp system I've been playing an extremely farming oriented gameplay style. Try it on leaguecraft look at Singed effective health for the two categories and compared it to any other 3 items for the same gold. Spirit visage passive just isn't that great for Singed. It will only net you an extra 25-30 hp/5 with ult on. I'm still not completely sold on rylai's scepter on singed. It's such an expensive item for what I'm getting when I already have an aoe slow of rape for teamfights. My main goal in a teamfight is to run in first and force them to waste burst on me while im smacking their carry. Having my poison slow just doesnt seem to help me with my purpose for that kind of cost. By piss easy lane I more mean if I'm with a 5 man and know we are running a strong setup. When you solo queue with singed you could end up against some really shit lanes. Last week I stuck in a lane till lvl 7 just on my regrowth with an annie versus an ashe and ryze (probably the worst combo I could ask for). They brought me down to 100 range twice then I would just regen my way back with a level up and my lovely 28 hp per 5. If I woulda went sapphire 2 hp pots, my pots would run out at lvl 4 going for farm. I could stay in lane till 7 on sapphire 2 hp pots but I would have no farm. Singed with no farm is not a very useful singed. If you run sapphire 2 hp pots your regen with the mastery that gives regen based on mana you are at 16 per 5. So it takes 166 seconds for it to become more useful. No one doubts that FoN>Visage, after all it´s 3 Times as expensive. But just becomming "fat" looses effectivness the better the other Team is. Against better players Singed won´t eat burst but a CC-effect so he can´t Toss. Shure with Warmogs+FoN you are near immortal but thanks to the cost basically nothing else. With Rylaids you make certain that the enemys are hesitant/foolish to run into the Poisontrail. It´s a issue nearly all Tanks share.My recommondations are simply more aggressive, mind that Spirit Visage includes CDR which helps. Pendant vs. Pots is not as big as a difference as I made it out to be, both work. Still since I don´t get ANY item with it as component I´ll stay with Sapphire for faster Catalyst->Rod. On a different matter, It´s certainly counterintuitive but how would a Hybrid Mundo perform? I´m mostly wondering because of Rylaids scepter which, if it stacks would make BA a AOE slow and the Rageblade which is a cost effective item that Mundo would have no problem keeping "full". Due to Masochism Mundo pretty much needs Attackspeed for DPS and possibly Crit. AFAIK BA has a AP rate of 0.4 which isn´t bad actually if we consider that it´s AOE, semipermanent and a Toggle. To note on Mundo: Guisinoo updated BAs CCreduction to stack multiplicativly, so it´s 56% instead of 80% now, making stuff like Berzerkers valid. | ||
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SaetZero
United States855 Posts
If only we didn't have the feediest Mord in history in my lane, we mighta done something. -_- Anyone with Trist exp, I was going for Crit/Dmg for her, so ummmm I went (teleport/clarity) boots + 3 hp avarice blade boots of swiftness soul shroud infinity edge zeal black cleaver phantom dancer replace avarice with atma's Does that seem okay? Shroud gets me a little bit of hp early, and with Clarity as I always prefer I can sneak no mana regen items easy. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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g1rg10
Italy186 Posts
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On March 09 2010 22:22 SaetZero wrote: I tried Trist out last night for a game (had the points to buy her, she seemed cool, so yerpaderp) and I liiiiiiiiiike it. Very fun hero, and fits what I was looking for well. If only we didn't have the feediest Mord in history in my lane, we mighta done something. -_- Anyone with Trist exp, I was going for Crit/Dmg for her, so ummmm I went (teleport/clarity) boots + 3 hp avarice blade boots of swiftness soul shroud infinity edge zeal black cleaver phantom dancer replace avarice with atma's Does that seem okay? Shroud gets me a little bit of hp early, and with Clarity as I always prefer I can sneak no mana regen items easy. well, I'm not a trist player, but I can tell you that build needs a whole lotta work... from what I've seen, Trist players always open either vampiric scepter, long sword, or doran's blade with an HP pot if one of the latter two. from there, they usually shoot for early phage and/or black cleaver. For boots, go treads or berzerker's greaves, I don't see why you would go boots of swiftness on trist. I dunno, I'll let someone with more trist experience fill in the blanks for how you should be building her. so you said you were going for crit/dmg, and then your first relevant item in the build is a tank/support item in soul shroud... This just doesn't make sense on trist. If you want HP, get phage -> frozen mallet, if you want CD reduction go brutalizer. You also said you're sneaking no mana regen items, but soul shroud gives a considerable mana regen aura... You're really shooting yourself in the foot by spending over 2K on an item that's designed for Alistar/Taric/Soraka and has no place on a carry... I also just want to say that atma's has no place on a character with HP growth as poor as Trist's. Atma's is just for Jax and tanks who want to be able to have their autoattack do something after stacking tanking items all game. | ||
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