EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T6GKPEd.jpg)
Bisu 3 years ago
![[image loading]](http://img.dailygame.co.kr/news/201112/attachments/20111213_50f47b2875a4a76ff699550da2dd2ecd.jpg)
When your looks get younger and cuter its time to retire and play more BW.
DES Retirement Interview With Bisu - Page 8
| Forum Index > BW General |
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19131 Posts
Bisu 3 years ago When your looks get younger and cuter its time to retire and play more BW. | ||
|
Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On October 02 2013 22:48 Ribbon wrote: I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW). http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012-2013_Proleague/Statistics http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gom?option=view&playerid=32470 Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number. FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late. I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues). I agree with the theory that APM/mechanics has less of an impact in SC2 though. I'd go so far as to say that SC2 is primarily about unit composition and engagements, with economy not really being that big of a deal because of the easy macro mechanics (and thus, a lost battle in BW that leads to the opponent attacking with a superior force can be delayed and even stopped by superior macro play, whereas a similarly lost battle in SC2 means an instant supply gap that will not be recovered in time before being overwhelmed). In that sense, the individual advantages of the S-Class BW players in mechanics weren't really felt all that much in Sc2. This is why mechanically sound A-Class BW players now dominate the SC2 scene - there's really no differentiating the mechanics of someone like Innovation to that of, say Fantasy or Flash (who's even less of a multitasker). Of course, overshadowing all these points is the passion of the player for the game, and the tailoring of his or her skills to the differences. I remember thinking in BW that MVP was a really good player - superior mechanics than most - but that he was held back by taking too many risks, something that turned into a strength when he played SC2. | ||
|
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 03 2013 11:41 Caladbolg wrote: I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues). His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened. BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch. I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little. In terms of why would he slowly slide down? He's getting older, yo. BW, especially KeSPA style sweatshop BW, is a game for young people. He'd be slowing down. I agree with the theory that APM/mechanics has less of an impact in SC2 though. I'd go so far as to say that SC2 is primarily about unit composition and engagements, with economy not really being that big of a deal because of the easy macro mechanics (and thus, a lost battle in BW that leads to the opponent attacking with a superior force can be delayed and even stopped by superior macro play, whereas a similarly lost battle in SC2 means an instant supply gap that will not be recovered in time before being overwhelmed). In that sense, the individual advantages of the S-Class BW players in mechanics weren't really felt all that much in Sc2. This is why mechanically sound A-Class BW players now dominate the SC2 scene - there's really no differentiating the mechanics of someone like Innovation to that of, say Fantasy or Flash (who's even less of a multitasker). Of course, overshadowing all these points is the passion of the player for the game, and the tailoring of his or her skills to the differences. I remember thinking in BW that MVP was a really good player - superior mechanics than most - but that he was held back by taking too many risks, something that turned into a strength when he played SC2. SC2 is, in fairness, mechanically much harder than any game besides BW. And there are differences that are notable at a high level. Scarlett's mechanics are simply better than most Zergs, and it wins her games. But it rewards APM a bit less and decision-making a bit more (not to say that SC2 requires 30 APM or that BW is "I can click faster so I win", of course). They're slightly different skill sets. And vastly different skill sets going from BW Terran to SC2 Terran or BW Protoss to SC2 Protoss, since the races are so wildly different. SC2 Protoss is probably the biggest nexus of all SC2's | ||
|
Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Actually I don't think the easier macro is that big of a deal. Basically by the end of BW, everyone could macro really well. All it really does is lower the amount of memory and APM dedicated to the econ. So naturally this should free up mental resources for other stuff like strategy and micro. However, SCII doesn't require super micro because of the tendency for SCII units to not be able to kill much more than their cost no matter how much micro you have. So given the lack of defender's advantage, and unit potential when microed, you end up with giant army blobs colliding into each other which is quite dull compared to the variety of viable army encounters in broodwar. | ||
|
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 04 2013 03:06 Antisocialmunky wrote: So given the lack of defender's advantage, and unit potential when microed, you end up with giant army blobs colliding into each other which is quite dull compared to the variety of viable army encounters in broodwar. Watch any SC2 TvZ in the last few months (I recommend this one!*), the "my blob beat your blob so I win" has been replaced with a 20 minute endless rally battle. People are getting kind of sick of it because it's all that happens TvZ, but I'll take it over Infestor/Broodlord blobs, or the Colossus Blobs we used to see PvP On October 04 2013 03:06 Antisocialmunky wrote:However, SCII doesn't require super micro because of the tendency for SCII units to not be able to kill much more than their cost I don't think I've heard that one before. I've seen a 75/25 mine kill 1275/425 worth of banelings in one shot, and every Terran's lost their whole army to two storms at least once. If anything, it's too possible for units to trade efficiently. If two armies kill each other, the game goes on. The "my blob wins lol" happens when one army vaporizes the other. *Youtube and TL seem to hate each other. My example game starts at the 61 minute mark | ||
|
Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Actually I'm pretty familiar with the 20 minute endless rally battle as mass marining strategies always had that as a the trademark if you could keep the zerg from massing. I personally still like TvZ match up the best but I don't like the widow mine making Terran reinforcement paths so harass resistant. It was better when you had to mass reinforcements to move out because zerg could catch you out in the open. I would say that the widow mine, some of the new HotS units, and sentries have Broodwar levels in efficiency. But I was mainly referring to units where micro can make them several times better. Tricks like splitting marines against banelings or zerg splitting against widow mines would be good examples of this in SCII. But hellion micro isn't on the same level as vulture micro (hellions pause just long enough where speedlings can catch up to them if they fire), HTs are nowhere near as powerful as old HTs even if you account for clumpiness (HT's and reavers made M&M completely impractical after all), and I don't think there's anything comparable with microing defilers and dark swarm. | ||
|
miercat
394 Posts
On October 04 2013 02:23 Ribbon wrote: His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened. There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality. BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch. There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it. I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little. I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time). In terms of why would he slowly slide down? He's getting older, yo. BW, especially KeSPA style sweatshop BW, is a game for young people. He'd be slowing down. Flash was still relatively young, and was revealing signs of significant improvement in his play, even up until 2011/2012. He was not slowing down, and likely would have continued to improve. Until he started slumping hard suddenly(not a slowing down - just playing terribly) near the switch, he was unquestionably the best player in the world by far (except Jaedong) due to both his winning record, and the style in which he won his games: Flash's methodical/skillful/soul crushing destruction of his opponents revealed an unquestioned dominance in EVERY facet of the game. If things had continued there is little doubt that he would have maintained his position at the top. (again, not just by his record, but the content of the game, you could tell Flash was still crushing, and continuously improving, even relatively late - most games there were essentially no openings for his opponent to capitalize on) For anyone who has followed BW in detail, these are things that would be patently obvious. Just watch all the Proleague/MSL/OSL games since Flash entered the scene, and it should be easy to see. Also, ask anyone in the professional Korean scene, and they will tell you no different. By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong. | ||
|
miercat
394 Posts
On October 04 2013 03:06 Antisocialmunky wrote: Actually I don't think the easier macro is that big of a deal. Basically by the end of BW, everyone could macro really well. While it's true that modern players macro a lot better than the early generation players, and that there has been a general increase in understanding, regarding what constitutes effective macro, to say "everyone could macro really well" is incorrect. In 2012 (and the years preceding) there was an absolutely huge discrepancy in macromanagement ability overall: compare players like Flash, Best, Really, Zero who were able to gain an edge(in one respect, at least) on essentially any other opponent, by way of superior macro - this edge would be magnified in the late game. There were players on the opposite spectrum, who actually were forced to avoid late-game macro oriented games, because their macro simply wasn't good enough. Of course, there were players, everywhere in between as well. All it really does is lower the amount of memory and APM dedicated to the econ. So naturally this should free up mental resources for other stuff like strategy and micro. This was the theory of course, and on the face of it, not necessarily unreasonable. However, whether or not this concept(automining) - put into practice - would yield a better/more entertaining/more fun game, even in optimal circumstances (ie. with a good game in all other respects) cannot be concluded at this point. The fact that in you can gain on edge on opponents by so many means (strategically, economically, tactically, by micro) is - to put it lightly - not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed Starcraft's mechanical complexity/difficulty, might have been a primary reason why it has been so successful, and removing it might not have had the desired effect, or even detracted from the overall quality of the game, both from a casual and professional entertainment standpoint. Was automining a/the problem in SC2? It's hard to tell. SC2 was such an abject failure in all the aspects that made BW such a successful game(from a player, and professional entertainment standpoint), it doesn't really serve to focus on one. | ||
|
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On October 04 2013 11:29 miercat wrote: There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality. The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring). There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it. The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over. I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time). When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it. By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong. Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥ | ||
|
Caladbolg
2855 Posts
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring). The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over. When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it. Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥ Last 3 years of BW was basically Leessang Rok (Flash v Jaedong), rookie sensations like Snow, the ascension of Fantasy as the successor of the SKT empire, and the resurgence of Jangbi. It wasn't all TBLS. Stork and Bisu were only successful in one aspect (Stork in individuals, Bisu in proleague). Flash was the name to beat, but it made things more fun. If you were an anti-fan, you'd cheer for anyone to beat him (like when Really broke his TvT streak). As a fan, you'd just sit there amazed at how good he was. And while we call him God, he wasn't immortal at all. He bled. Reality, Jangbi, Fantasy... anyone had a shot, but Flash was good enough to always bounce back and reclaim the throne. It really saddened me when he never got the chance because the scene shifted to SC2. Honestly, I can't see how the scene stagnated or became dull. It was really really fun, up to the time when Bisu beat Flash for the proleague GF (something he's always had a hard time doing). And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens. | ||
|
quuad
Sweden77 Posts
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring). Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up. And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time. On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over. TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit?  | ||
|
Funnytoss
Taiwan1471 Posts
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over. I'm sure there were many others that felt the same, which probably explains, to a certain extent, why Jangbi's back-to-back championships were so memorable. | ||
|
iloveav
Poland1472 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6398 Posts
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring). The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over. When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it. Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥ sometimes im not really sure u like bw  | ||
|
vndestiny
Singapore3437 Posts
On October 02 2013 02:23 herMan wrote: I don't know what your second point means. Starcraft 2 fans don't even like the game? Or that every sc2 fan would prefer broodwar if it came back, implying that they all used to follow bw before sc2? I don't believe either one and but hey that's just my opinion. Otherwise you have fair points. I'm just calling out all the people who want players like Jaedong or Flash to switch back even though they have had great results after transitioning. It means the pros work so hard on BW to become the best at it. And then they were forced to play a different game or bye bye their job. Yeah what's no to love right ? | ||
|
FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 04 2013 22:01 iloveav wrote: I thought the most accomplished player was Nada and flash :D. Wasn't boxer 18month ranked 1st ? Or are we talking different "most accomplished" (like wins etc...) if so i think it's NaDa your right | ||
|
vndestiny
Singapore3437 Posts
| ||
|
FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 04 2013 18:09 quuad wrote: Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up. And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time. TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit? TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken). | ||
|
flashimba
225 Posts
| ||
|
quuad
Sweden77 Posts
On October 04 2013 22:23 FFW_Rude wrote: TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken). Yeah lol. I was trying to make fun of Ribbon's spelling mistake TLBS instead of TBLS | ||
| ||
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6p9JApl.png)
