When it comes to the shining stars of esports, one can not simply look past Bisu. There is no Protoss player that can match his experience and notability, some even call him the "Post BoxeR".
But now he has become a "legend", because he announced his retirement not long before. What will Bisu do and go is what fans are suspecting. Finally Bisu decides to speak up. He isn't a person that likes interviews, and he has very high self-esteem, so doing the retirement interview under the impression of no significant results in Starcraft II would only bear a huge burden on him. So after some time for him to collect his thoughts, the journalist dialed his number.
Surprisingly, Bisu sounds calm. He accepted the interview without second thought, "I understand." Before his retirement, the journalist asked Bisu for an interview but he declined, but he thinks it would be very unpolite to the fans if he doesn't say something now.
Three weeks after retiring, Bisu now has no burdens, he talked very openly during the interview, in a very different atmosphere.
"I don't want to just talk about the past"
Bisu refused to talk about his retirement for a reason, he doesn't want to just talk about BW because his results in SC2 was disappointing, and he hasn't settled down his mood yet, and doesn't know what to say.
"As a pro-gamer, you can't just talk about the past, for fans and himself, it isn't a good thing. And the interview would be very limited if you do that. I need time to think about the future and the present."
"Please don't misunderstand me (laughs). Sure because of my character someone might misunderstand, but I don't really meant to stay a lurker. I was just having a headache about what to say to my fans, how to explain my current situation. Yeah my worries hasn't really settled down but at least I can say what I want to my fans."
The journalist was worrying about the interview going into something too formal, but Bisu calmed him down. He was more honest than ever, speaking about his stories one piece by one piece.
"My heart went away with the fans."
Bisu loves Brood War more than anyone. But he had to move on to Starcraft II, which made him tired, the fans' support kept him going.
"I'm not a person who excels at impressions, but honestly I thank my fans from the deepest of my heart. My heart would ponder going into the stadium full of fans, how happy would it be to play in a stadium filled with cheers of the fans. So I kept up my career going despite the obstacles. The fans are the stim that keeps me going."
But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
Being part of TBLS, the burden is massive.
Interestingly, before Bisu announced his retirement, Flash, Jaedong and Stork gave the same response, no one asked "why". Because they understand this "why" better than anyone, so no one persuaded him to stay.
"To be honest I won't be surprised if Flash hyung and Stork hyung retire right now. Anyone who knows them won't be surprised. The burden on us is beyond imagination."
If Bisu is just a practice partner or an average A-Teamer, he might not retire. But as a member of TBLS, the most elite among esports players, he receive huge attention from his numerous fans.
"I'm under the pressure of proving myself. Even losing a single match stresses me and frustrates me, thinking about going forward like this make my heart heavier. I can't see hopes of improving, just the increasing pressure, it was really painful."
Not only him, Stork, Jaedong and Flash were facing the same thing, they were disappointed with themselves as well.
"I retire because I can't deal with the pressure, but I hope the other three can perform better. I think the fans are hoping this as well. I hope the fans could give them more support and less blaming, because the love of fans is what keeps pro gamers alive."
"I'm happy, I hope fans are happy too."
Bisu doesn't cry a lot. But after deciding to retire, when teammates and others say "it was hard for you these days", he cried. Bisu understands that showing them the happy Bisu is what's best for the fans and esports.
"Now, think about it, the love I receive is truly unimaginable, I can't possibly repay that with my entire life, that's really something big (laughs). How would I repay that? So I started to stream, so I could be closer to my fans, lets have some fun before I leave. And I can play the Brood War I love, so the fans would be happy too isn't it?"
Bisu isn't fully getting used to BW yet, but he will improve for the fans that want to see the old him. After recovering a bit he might consider playing in SSL.
"Fans would be disappointed if I attend tournaments now with my current skill. I will practice hard to deliver exciting games, that's why I'm streaming. Some people say I might came for money, but I came here to deliver my heart so I don't really care about those comments."
At the beginning of the interview Bisu said because he was underperforming in SC2, he worried about not having much to say, but he spoke his true thought bit by bit.
"I'm really happy to be able to leave with all these sweet memories. Whatever I do from now on, is probably gonna be accompanied by the memories of Bisu the pro-gamer. Fans would be happy knowing I'm happy now. Before you heard from me again, I hope everyone a health and happy life, thanks everyone for caring and loving me."
Kim Taek-Yong (Bisu), who retired recently, expressed his apologies to former SK Telecom T1 coach Lim Yo-Hwan (Boxer).
He said, "Shorty after my retirement, I heard that coach Lim Yo-Hwan had left the team. It felt like he had left because of me, so I felt bad about it."
Lim Yo-Hwan's care for Kim Taek-Yong was extraordinary. Placing importance on elements beyond just match results, he placed great expectations upon Kim Taek-Yong. He had even given him the title "Post Lim Yo-Hwan".
When Lim Yo-Hwan took the role of SK Telecom's head coach, his most urgent priority was to get Kim Taek-Yong back on track. Last season of Proleague, in order to improve Kim Taek-Yong's results in Starcraft 2, he told him, "I won't send you out in rounds 2 and 3, so prepare well for Heart of the Swarm."
Kim Taek-Yong was well aware that Lim Yo-Hwan was investing a great deal in reviving him. In order to respond to this trust, he stayed up late practicing for Heart of the Swarm.
However, the results were not good, and even up to the moment of retirement, Kim Taek-Yong was very sorry toward Lim Yo-Hwan who had placed so much trust in him. He was not able to tell him, and it stayed in his mind even after leaving the team.
Kim Taek-Yong said, "To coach Lim Yo-Hwan who invested so much in me without hesitation, I am forever grateful and sorry. I hope that he will do well in whatever he chooses from now on."
Kim Taek-Yong told us of his regrets and advice regarding e-sports.
Prior to his retirement, as a member of "TaekBangLeeSsang" leading the world of e-sports, Kim Taek-Yong had feelings of sadness regarding the current league system. He had the opinion that the current problems were due to an inability to satisfy the content-hungry fans.
Kim Taek-Yong's first point was regarding Proleague. He said, "It's not that I don't understand the sponsors' and Kespa's point of view, but playing so many matches, the players slowly lose their personality and the fans get bored easily."
Kim Taek-Yong believes that if Proleague had just one round with an appropriate number of games, StarCraft: Brood War could also have lasted longer. With a five round Proleague requiring so many games, the players tired quickly, which lowered the quality of play and also tired out the fans.
Another point was, "Focusing on Proleague so much at the expense of individual leagues also caused problems." He said, "Progamers define their unique styles in individual leagues, not Proleague, so when teams and Kespa de-emphasize individual leagues, it's difficult for memorable games or unique players to come out."
Kim Taek-Yong also had many regrets about the switch to StarCraft 2. Players, sponsors, and organizers all shifted their concentration to future plans, which ended up making the present situation worse and worse.
"Right now, everyone needs to unite and work together, but instead they only speak outwardly about how to revive the scene, while inwardly they think, 'What will we do once everything falls apart', and so the current problems remain unsolved."
"In order to overcome the current crisis, everyone working in e-sports needs to combine their strength. I hope that e-sports and StarCraft 2 events will receive so much love as to make me regret retiring."
I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
But reading this makes me sad that I did miss out on the legends. That I will miss out on seeing Bisu and Stork and all the other BW players at the height of their prowess. That I won't ever experience the same level of community, and spirit, that made the BW era such a huge success.
Thank you, Bisu, for your dedication to both Starcraft and to your fans.
On October 01 2013 05:35 Billinator wrote: Can someone tell me what TBLS means?
TaekBangLeeSsang, the four most accomplished BW progamer Bisu (Kim Taek Yong), Stork (Song Byung Goo), Flash (Lee Young Ho) and Jaedong (Lee Jaedong), LeeSsang means "two Lees".
On October 01 2013 05:31 eonrulz wrote: I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
He slayed a bonjwa and fixed a match up with his creative solutions.
I'm glad he retired from SC2, it was depressing watching him force himself to play a game he clearly didn't like. Flash is probably next tbh, every interview he seems to go out of his way to point out how bad SC2 is. Bisu was one of the reasons I got into BW in 2007/2008, I'll never forget him.
Kespa's decision to switch to sc2 ended players' careers prematurely, is decreasing the motivation of those still playing, and will lead to continued retirements from now on. Proleague, GO BACK!
On October 01 2013 05:24 [Evo] Journey wrote: Man, Bisu's hair is always so great T.T
Since I wasn't following when Brood War was big, I wonder if the hairstyle was really the selling point...
About the interview: It's really sad. He was the top atlethe in his sport, and all of a sudden the sport vanishes. Imagine all the football stars, if all of the sudden the organisers say: We stop football now. No more fill stadiums, no more huge fanbases, no more goal scoring!
...but hey, we will be starting a cricket league, so if you want you can switch to that!
bisuuuuuuuu. on a different note, I really hope flash doesn't retire soon. He was soooooooo close to making ro8 this GSL he still has so potential to improve
But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
Nowadays retirement is a good news for the BW fans, but it is sad to see great players suffering for not showing good results in a game they don't like, just as bisu did. I was so happy to see Bisu stream, his games against Sea were very good and even Sea was impressed for how hard it was to play against a rusty Bisu. I hope him the best and hope to see him in a SSL in the future.
On October 01 2013 05:41 StarStruck wrote: He sure doesn't disappoint in BW if you caught some of his games today it looked like he didn't miss a step. Who's going to hydra bust you now Bisu?
On October 01 2013 05:41 StarStruck wrote: He sure doesn't disappoint in BW if you caught some of his games today it looked like he didn't miss a step. Who's going to hydra bust you now Bisu?
But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
Pretty painful to read that.
It sure is. Watching the half empty stadium and how cameraman was trying to not show that during last Proleague season was painful as well. If nothing changes (and I don't see why would it), we'll see some major changes very soon. There's no room for both GSL/GSTL and Proleague in Korean SC2 scene atm, it's way too small. ---
Never was a huge fan as well, but still sad to see it ends like that for him. Maybe he should've retired during SC2 switch, as a great BW player, rather than torturing himself with the game he didn't liked for so long.
But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
Pretty painful to read that.
It sure is. Watching the half empty stadium and how cameraman was trying to not show that during last Proleague season was painful as well. If nothing changes (and I don't see why would it), we'll see some major changes very soon. There's no room for both GSL/GSTL and Proleague in Korean SC2 scene atm, it's way too small. ---
Never was a huge fan as well, but still sad to see it ends like that for him. Maybe he should've retired during SC2 switch, as a great BW player, rather than torturing himself with the game he didn't liked for so long.
While I don't disagree, most of these players continue for their fans. I'm pretty sure that Flash is playing SCII more for the fans than himself at this point. Jaedong, well, hard to say since he's had some success. Stork is probably in the same position as Flash even though he finally made it through code A qualifiers.
Good interview overall but that comment about the empty audience is so sad to read If Flash doesn't make the RO8 next time and Stork falls out to Yoda in his code A match, then I wouldn't be surprised if you read about them both retiring sooner than later. Jaedong is probably gonna stay since he's doing ok so far lol
Bisu, we love you. Even though you didn't become a protoss SC2 powerhouse, we still love you. I hope you are happier now that you don't hold the burden of expectations on you. <3
I hope Flash and Stork don't retire from SC2, but if they do, I'm gonna have to start watching SSL.
On October 01 2013 07:02 Vanadium wrote: Bisu, we love you. Even though you didn't become a protoss SC2 powerhouse, we still love you. I hope you are happier now that you don't hold the burden of expectations on you. <3
I hope Flash and Stork don't retire from SC2, but if they do, I'm gonna have to start watching SSL.
On October 01 2013 05:55 rift wrote: Kespa's decision to switch to sc2 ended players' careers prematurely, is decreasing the motivation of those still playing, and will lead to continued retirements from now on. Proleague, GO BACK!
I would pay money for them to bring back BW Proleague. Be it a subscription or anything like that. I loved Proleague and I have barely played BW. It was so much fun to watch. I didn't always know what was going on but it was still crazy exciting to watch.
It's just disappointing when SC2 came, it could not become the game most BW fans could stand against. Really emotional interview. I sincerely hope all former brood war programers manage to find happiness in their lives; most of them definitely have dedication and strength to succeed.
"Bisu isn't fully getting used to BW yet, but he will improve for the fans that want to see the old him. After recovering a bit he might consider playing in SSL."
On October 01 2013 07:02 Vanadium wrote: Bisu, we love you. Even though you didn't become a protoss SC2 powerhouse, we still love you. I hope you are happier now that you don't hold the burden of expectations on you. <3
I hope Flash and Stork don't retire from SC2, but if they do, I'm gonna have to start watching SSL.
Give it a few months... 3 at best.
They can't retire in the middle of their contract, it'll be more likely next Aug
I might be wrong, but I really do think that being two leagues in korea (Proleague + GSTL) did hurt SC2 scene (in KR). I never felt I was able to see the best of the best going against each other, because the "other" best could play exclusively in the other league.
On October 01 2013 07:57 Carefree wrote: Is there any way for us to donate Afreeca balloons? :D
I don't believe so since some TL members already tried. Best you can do is watch snipealot's stream and the ad revenue gets donated to them.
If the ad revenue gets donated wouldn't you be able to just give the money to snipealot to be included in the next donation wave?
I guess that's true as well. You can sign up for an afreeca account so some TL members have those but to donate, you need a valid credit card and I believe you have to have gotten it from Korea otherwise it doesn't work(mentioned in the other thread in this section).
"To be honest I won't be surprised if Flash hyung and Stork hyung retire right now. Anyone who knows them won't be surprised. The burden on us is beyond imagination."
Wow. I figured most of the BW players didn't like SC2 much, but it really surprises me that they dislike SC2 to that extent. I wonder what'll happen if all of TBLS ends up retiring - would we get a reinvigorated BW scene?
On October 01 2013 07:45 mostwanted wrote: Imagine Flash retires @@
Oh no .. Keep Flash in that stupid shit of a game. He'll just destroy the BW scene all over again. I remember a time when he was Bunker Rushing Best and that got thinking that he's destroying the game. -_-
Bisu was by far my favorite player and I always hoped he would return to dominance. I'll miss him, but on the other hand, watching him play BW will be (has been) great, and if he's happier there then I'm glad he's out of pro sc2.
On October 01 2013 05:17 digmouse wrote: But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
This part is fucking gutwrenching to read. It makes me very bitter.
On October 01 2013 05:17 digmouse wrote: But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
This part is fucking gutwrenching to read. It makes me very bitter.
On October 01 2013 05:17 digmouse wrote: But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
This part is fucking gutwrenching to read. It makes me very bitter.
On October 01 2013 08:45 iamho wrote: "To be honest I won't be surprised if Flash hyung and Stork hyung retire right now. Anyone who knows them won't be surprised. The burden on us is beyond imagination."
Wow. I figured most of the BW players didn't like SC2 much, but it really surprises me that they dislike SC2 to that extent. I wonder what'll happen if all of TBLS ends up retiring - would we get a reinvigorated BW scene?
I don't think it's dislike as much as SCII changed what made them progamers, the cheer of the fans. That was their drive to improve their play but it wasn't there anymore after PL became only SCII.
On October 01 2013 05:17 digmouse wrote: But Proleague rapidly loses fandom after transitioning into SC2. After less than a month, there were only half the fans coming to watch the games.
"Not only me, the other players felt this too. Seeing the emply stadium, the motives of playing just isn't there anymore. Without an audience in sight, we lose our meaning to play the matches."
A lot of people, including Bisu, were surprised by the declining of viewership. At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good. The players with the most fans like him, knows about this feeling more than anyone.
"Fans are leaving, what's the meaning of me stay here to play? I feel hollow in my heart, a feeling I never had during Brood War times, being a pro-gamer no longer ignites the fire in my heart."
Bisu came up with the thought of retiring near the end of the the season. He finally realized, the support of fans is what keeps him continuing his career.
This part is fucking gutwrenching to read. It makes me very bitter.
I got goosebumps from reading it again It's still sad to think how much the Korean scene has changes since SCII's inception.
Sounds like he really misses the stage that was worth putting in the hours of practice for. I'm glad he is starting to feel like he's in a better place though. It is better for him to put in an amount of effort he feels is proportional to what he's receiving. Streaming for fans and SSL might not be a packed studio, but he can also take it a little easier and just have fun. It really seems like when he saw the diminished crowd, he was asking himself why he was working so hard for this.
It would be easy to suspect he's a glory hunter, but I think that's not really it at all. There's just a point at which you realise you don't really care about the games either.
Laugh all you want! Not only that bisu is my crush and my idol but just like what he said bw died and the fans continue to decline. It's really saddening. I am also guilty about this. After sc2, i don't watch a lot of games already, it's not as fun as before. I miss the old days of glory of broodwar
It's interesting that he says Flash and Stork are likely to retire back to BW, but leaves out Jaedong. I guess JD is happy on EG?
But yeah, I don't know what the hell all these KeSPA pros are doing not retiring. Anyone in KeSPA who liked SC2 would've switched early on. Soulkey, Sun/Rain, and Bogus/Innovation are at least winning things, but what are the rest of them doing but playing a game they don't like and can't get any results in? None of TLBS have managed to win a premier tournament, and no one anywhere cares about Proleague since Koreans don't like SC2 and foreigners don't like Supernovamaniac.
Good for BW, I guess. I imagine SSL will continue to have slow growth, though if it gets a good English cast from an established SC2 name, BW's foreign scene could really take off compared to what it was pre-collapse.
Funny they gave up SC1 and its fans for SC2 and its global fans because of the lack of sponsors and the 2 most recent WCS KR sponsors are both korean online shops that would've benefited from BW more because they wouldn't really get any buyers from the global fanbase.
Bisuuuuuuuuuuuuu Im happy he retired, watching basically one if not the best proleague players of the past few years barely come out to play anymore, and get beaten up whenever he did was so depressing. Now I get to watch him play BW daily? Sounds like a deal to me, and I think a lot of people feel that way given the number of viewers whenever he is on stream.
On October 01 2013 10:11 Ribbon wrote: It's interesting that he says Flash and Stork are likely to retire back to BW, but leaves out Jaedong. I guess JD is happy on EG?
But yeah, I don't know what the hell all these KeSPA pros are doing not retiring. Anyone in KeSPA who liked SC2 would've switched early on. Soulkey, Sun/Rain, and Bogus/Innovation are at least winning things, but what are the rest of them doing but playing a game they don't like and can't get any results in? None of TLBS have managed to win a premier tournament, and no one anywhere cares about Proleague since Koreans don't like SC2 and foreigners don't like Supernovamaniac.
Good for BW, I guess. I imagine SSL will continue to have slow growth, though if it gets a good English cast from an established SC2 name, BW's foreign scene could really take off compared to what it was pre-collapse.
ya, it's been mentioned that Jaedong enjoys his time on EG and he is generating the team a lot of publicity. He's also made 2nd place at Dreamhack three times now if I recall correctly and almost won WCS AM and WCS Season 2 finals(lost to a terran both times ><). He's making a decent amount on top of his salary at EG and I wouldn't be surprised if he's going to stay for another year at least. Stork isn't doing that well tbh. He just got through Code A qualifiers for the first time and as for Flash, he makes RO16 then loses lol so who knows.
I think the difference between jaedong and the others is that, unlike them, his team had disbanded and he was playing on a half assed team that was basically the punching bag of the league. He arguably has a better situation now than he did in BW, ignoring the fact that he has to play a different game, so it makes sense that of all of them, he's the least likely to retire.
Bisu isn't fully getting used to BW yet, but he will improve for the fans that want to see the old him. After recovering a bit he might consider playing in SSL.
Better words I could not hear. Bisu fighting!
I just love watching his stream. I have so missed being disappointed I missed a Bisu game.
I picked up broodwar last weekend. I've never played before but I am learning. I missed all of BW as I was too young to play it but interviews like this tell me there was a lot of passion and legendary times that I missed not knowing that game; things that are missing in SC 2.
I've only heard stories of his feats and have never seen a live game of his (I've watched plenty of vods ) yet he is still a gaming idol of mine despite me missing his best years.
PS I caught his snipealot games last weekend and MY GOD is he GOOD and HOLY SHIT is that game fun to watch even in 2013. After class, while im relaxing, or in the line at chipotle, Broodwar is the game I am watching on twitch.tv because I would love to see Bisu playing his protoss any day of the week
On October 01 2013 05:17 digmouse wrote: ...but I don't really meant to stay a lurker...
Holy fuck does that mean after Hydras evolve into Lurkers, Lurkers can evolve again? Meta-breaking discovery
But in seriousness that part about playing for the fans and the fans disappearing and all the people who switched just not loving it anymore was heartbreaking :'( I hope whatever TBLS decide on they find joy in their decision...also hoping Bisu gets back in his former shape soon so he can stomp all the SSLs and SRTs (okay maybe not stomp but at least win)
On October 01 2013 05:31 eonrulz wrote: I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
But reading this makes me sad that I did miss out on the legends. That I will miss out on seeing Bisu and Stork and all the other BW players at the height of their prowess. That I won't ever experience the same level of community, and spirit, that made the BW era such a huge success.
Thank you, Bisu, for your dedication to both Starcraft and to your fans.
Also, thanks for the translation!
mechanics. hes micro and macro are clean and crisp, hes screen transitions are smooth. bisu was also the pioneer for pvz, he understood dt tech better than anyone, the use of corsair/dt combo.
On October 01 2013 05:31 eonrulz wrote: I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
But reading this makes me sad that I did miss out on the legends. That I will miss out on seeing Bisu and Stork and all the other BW players at the height of their prowess. That I won't ever experience the same level of community, and spirit, that made the BW era such a huge success.
Thank you, Bisu, for your dedication to both Starcraft and to your fans.
Also, thanks for the translation!
he revolutionized a match up that was thought to be imbalanced by defeating a top form bonjwa in a finals as a rookie. not only that he was mechanically amazing. he was just as good as stork flash and jaedong and these 4 players consistently traded games with each other while dominating everyone else they came up against in proleague.
On October 01 2013 05:31 eonrulz wrote: I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
But reading this makes me sad that I did miss out on the legends. That I will miss out on seeing Bisu and Stork and all the other BW players at the height of their prowess. That I won't ever experience the same level of community, and spirit, that made the BW era such a huge success.
Thank you, Bisu, for your dedication to both Starcraft and to your fans.
Also, thanks for the translation!
he revolutionized a match up that was thought to be imbalanced by defeating a top form bonjwa in a finals as a rookie. not only that he was mechanically amazing. he was just as good as stork flash and jaedong and these 4 players consistently traded games with each other while dominating everyone else they came up against in proleague.
thus TBLS was born! To be fair though, I think Flash asked Bisu to practice with him way back. Not sure what year, maybe back in 2009 or something for OSL finals I think and Bisu said that he would keep losing to him and that he was crazy good so even Bisu ranked Flash above himself at that time
On October 01 2013 11:05 Louuster wrote: I think the difference between jaedong and the others is that, unlike them, his team had disbanded and he was playing on a half assed team that was basically the punching bag of the league. He arguably has a better situation now than he did in BW, ignoring the fact that he has to play a different game, so it makes sense that of all of them, he's the least likely to retire.
He doesn't have to lift EG by himself in any sort of team league, so at least that kind of pressure's gone. The increased mobility is just a big bonus plus that makes it attractive to him to continue playing.
This just confirms what a lot of us were thinking, I guess.
I definitely agree with HawaiianPig, this was hard to read. KeSPA and Blizzard took this grand, beautiful thing and just ripped it right out from under us. It was hard for us, but it must've been even harder from Bisu's eyes. He seems to be in a good state of mind though, which is nice. Streaming was definitely the right choice, its great for his fans and I'm sure it makes him feel pretty good too to see all the love he's getting.
I find it funny that he's concerned about his form though. Surely he's not in the shape he was a couple years ago, but the scene is different now; pretty much everyone is in the same boat. Didn't he just win series against both Killer and Sea today?
Watching him stream has been an absolute treat. I remember treating every FPVod of his like a holy grail, I must've watched the same 3 or so on YouTube a hundred times. Now we are just stocking up on them like mad! The way and the speed in which he switches from screen to screen is mesmerizing. I can get almost a feeling of nausea watching other pro gamers do the same thing, but with Bisu it's so clean and fluid. It's like he knows exactly whats going on, where every unit is situated, how every engagement is playing out, even before switching to that screen.
Goes without saying that I hope he participates in the SSL. The attention alone that he'd bring to it would do the BW scene wonders.
On October 01 2013 13:02 Existential wrote: Reading this just made me sad Wish we could go back to 3-5 years ago :'(
And relive SC2 coming out, Blizzard fucking up the scene to pave the road for an inferior game, ALL OVER AGAIN?
I'd rather kill myself.
My thoughts exactly. Even then when SC2 came out and all of us tried it and it sucked, most of us knew it will be dead a few years from then and now we are seeing it all unfold. If the current state of BW slowly, steadily grows for a couple of years, what's going to stop it to achieve it's stability? Blizzard can't do shit anymore. As long as there are people out there willing to watch and support this game, it will not die out. And as for SC2, the moment blizzard releases SC3 or whatever, it's practically dead.
On October 01 2013 13:02 Existential wrote: Reading this just made me sad Wish we could go back to 3-5 years ago :'(
And relive SC2 coming out, Blizzard fucking up the scene to pave the road for an inferior game, ALL OVER AGAIN?
I'd rather kill myself.
Yeah me too. I'm actually pretty happy with what we've got right now, especially considering how we lost everything in the switch.
I can't imagine how much it must suck to walk into an empty stadium. I'm glad he's in a better place now and he doesn't have to live with all that pressure. I just want him to be happy above all else. Also, it's nice to see another interview from Bisu, although I suspect it won't be his last because he'll have to give a few more when he wins his matches for SSL :D
On October 01 2013 05:31 eonrulz wrote: I missed all of Brood War, and I will never understand just what made Bisu so much better than his peers. Nor will I understand the amount of love his fans give him.
But reading this makes me sad that I did miss out on the legends. That I will miss out on seeing Bisu and Stork and all the other BW players at the height of their prowess. That I won't ever experience the same level of community, and spirit, that made the BW era such a huge success.
Thank you, Bisu, for your dedication to both Starcraft and to your fans.
Also, thanks for the translation!
I wish I could share my memories with you! :OOO haha.
To me, he showed another side of what protoss can do, when you have god like mechanics.
I think I hate KESPA even more after reading this. Look at how they treated players like Bisu, and the fans. It's pretty clear that they had no understanding of how Bisu, Sea among others felt.
It's interesting that after the switch to SC2 was announced, pretty much everything that I thought would happen, have happened.
Anyway, just the thought of God Young Ho retiring and starting to stream is making my mouth water.
Reading this was both depressing and uplifting in a way...
This sentence though: "At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good." was extremely painful to read. I'm glad the interview ended on a hopeful and slightly more positive note than that. Best of luck to him, and I hope to see him in some SSL's soon!
Slightly off-topic, but the SoSPA leagues could really use a solid protoss like Bisu. Sure, there are plenty of good players in the SSL/SRT's, but at the end of the day, the big contenders for 1st place will always be Killer and Sea. Throw Bisu into the mix, and those leagues suddenly get a lot more interesting, assuming Bisu is in decent shape. That's also why I'm not terribly upset about Bisu wanting to practice for a bit before trying his hand at the "Amateur" BW-leagues. When he's in shape, with eyes on the gold, it will have been worth the wait -- I promise!
On October 01 2013 17:32 TehRei wrote: Reading this was both depressing and uplifting in a way...
This sentence though: "At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good." was extremely painful to read. I'm glad the interview ended on a hopeful and slightly more positive note than that. Best of luck to him, and I hope to see him in some SSL's soon!
Slightly off-topic, but the SoSPA leagues could really use a solid protoss like Bisu. Sure, there are plenty of good players in the SSL/SRT's, but at the end of the day, the big contenders for 1st place will always be Killer and Sea. Throw Bisu into the mix, and those leagues suddenly get a lot more interesting, assuming Bisu is in decent shape. That's also why I'm not terribly upset about Bisu wanting to practice for a bit before trying his hand at the "Amateur" BW-leagues. When he's in shape, with eyes on the gold, it will have been worth the wait -- I promise!
Jangbi's probably going to be competing in them too, along with BeSt. We need some Protoss killers like KT_Mind to come back. Good thing he has too ;D
awww, despite my sick Bisu antifan hate, this interview actually made me feel some empathy for him
a pro-scene without Bisu just feels weird after all these years; sure I didn't like him as much as Reach or Yellow or Nada or Boxer, but a quarter of TBLS being gone is just... strange.
Anyway, luckily for Bisu he still has tons of fans who will watch him play BW, so maybe he can once again taste some of the joy he once experienced
On October 01 2013 17:32 TehRei wrote: Reading this was both depressing and uplifting in a way...
This sentence though: "At first Bisu thought fans might come back slowly, but one day he realized they left for good." was extremely painful to read. I'm glad the interview ended on a hopeful and slightly more positive note than that. Best of luck to him, and I hope to see him in some SSL's soon!
Slightly off-topic, but the SoSPA leagues could really use a solid protoss like Bisu. Sure, there are plenty of good players in the SSL/SRT's, but at the end of the day, the big contenders for 1st place will always be Killer and Sea. Throw Bisu into the mix, and those leagues suddenly get a lot more interesting, assuming Bisu is in decent shape. That's also why I'm not terribly upset about Bisu wanting to practice for a bit before trying his hand at the "Amateur" BW-leagues. When he's in shape, with eyes on the gold, it will have been worth the wait -- I promise!
Jangbi's probably going to be competing in them too, along with BeSt. We need some Protoss killers like KT_Mind to come back. Good thing he has too ;D
I don't think Best is competing anymore, he said he'd be in the military sometime late Sept, it's Oct now.
T_T This is really sad, I can sympathise with Bisu's situation. Nobody will enjoy dropping from an elite to a mediocore competitor. I wish him all the best, such a shame I will never see him at the top of SC2 and winning titles but I'll always cherish the great memories of him in BW.
On October 01 2013 19:00 JustPassingBy wrote: So, with some of the fan favorites returning to bw, what are the chances that bw becomes bigger again in Korea?
If things keep going back to where it is (old bw pros) coming back to the scene and there is an interest to restart small tournaments like the msl then I can see bw returning small but not big not in a sense like it will be that big like it used to be when it was at highest popularity.
Really sad interview. I already dislike Blizzard and Kespa (although not as much as Blizzard) for what they have done, and reading this interview is like throwing more wood onto the fire. Glad to see that there is a pro gamer who is honest about what he thinks of SC2. I hope to see more pro gamers who follow Bisu, Killer and the others because BW is so much more entertaining to watch.
The only reason I still watch SC2 is when Flash plays and recently its been quite depressing. I honestly hope he retires at this point so I can come back full time to BW!
Looks like mods don't ban people trashing sc2 or wishing pros to retire so they can go back to bw. It's also cool to laugh at sc2 and call it a dead game. I didn't know this kind of ill wishing was tolerated in this community.
its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
On October 01 2013 23:29 herMan wrote: Looks like mods don't ban people trashing sc2 or wishing pros to retire so they can go back to bw. It's also cool to laugh at sc2 and call it a dead game. I didn't know this kind of ill wishing was tolerated in this community.
Well, wishing pros to retire isn't exactly ill wishing when that way they get to do what they want to do(assuming they really don't like playing sc2 professionally anymore like Bisu is saying) and get more from donations, compared to the slave life of doing something they don't like 24/7 for little pay. Wishing them not to retire is ill wishing.
On October 01 2013 19:00 JustPassingBy wrote: So, with some of the fan favorites returning to bw, what are the chances that bw becomes bigger again in Korea?
If things keep going back to where it is (old bw pros) coming back to the scene and there is an interest to restart small tournaments like the msl then I can see bw returning small but not big not in a sense like it will be that big like it used to be when it was at highest popularity.
On October 01 2013 19:00 JustPassingBy wrote: So, with some of the fan favorites returning to bw, what are the chances that bw becomes bigger again in Korea?
If things keep going back to where it is (old bw pros) coming back to the scene and there is an interest to restart small tournaments like the msl then I can see bw returning small but not big not in a sense like it will be that big like it used to be when it was at highest popularity.
Why do you call the MSL small?
yeah .. GOM would be a better comparison. I forgot what the league was called. It's the league that most proteams declined to play their tournaments to focus on other leagues. That league where we saw Idra played I think.
On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote: its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more.
Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2.
On October 01 2013 19:00 JustPassingBy wrote: So, with some of the fan favorites returning to bw, what are the chances that bw becomes bigger again in Korea?
If things keep going back to where it is (old bw pros) coming back to the scene and there is an interest to restart small tournaments like the msl then I can see bw returning small but not big not in a sense like it will be that big like it used to be when it was at highest popularity.
Why do you call the MSL small?
yeah .. GOM would be a better comparison. I forgot what the league was called. It's the league that most proteams declined to play their tournaments to focus on other leagues. That league where we saw Idra played I think.
On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote: its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more.
Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2.
We don't like it when our beloved player plays a game they don't like. We don't like it when we know they've worked so hard to be on the A-team just to play a sequel when the fans that support the scene doesn't like. We don't like it when they're being forced to play a game they didn't have passion for it.
Warn me Ban me do anything but I have to say: "Starcraft 2 is a terrible game". We all knew this day was coming. But I don't blame blizzard(well them too). I blame the people for playing sc2 and thinking the game is gonna get better. 95% of people switched to sc2 and left brood war because the pro players switched too but the pro's is about the money, but we amateurs is about the fun and sc2 is no fun.
I forget how many times I dreamed to go to korea and meet bisu or to go to watch a proleague match. I think I never hated a game so much like sc2.
I can only dream people backing to bw and ogn and the teams switching back to bw to.
On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote: its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more.
Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2.
Considering the boost Starcrap2 got by killing BW and devouring its carcass, robbing its infrastructure, i would call it a failure, or at least a disappointment to most every1. I don't know why people think otherwise, but obviously people who loved BW hoped for nothing more than SC2 to be good. Well it wasn't.
U say "SC2 is big globally", but going from my modest sample size: I used to have loads of friends playing SC2, every single one of them stopped, 2 bought HotS for the Campaign. 100% of the people i know quit playing it, rather quickly too. So there.
On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote: its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more.
Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2.
We don't like it when our beloved player plays a game they don't like. We don't like it when we know they've worked so hard to be on the A-team just to play a sequel when the fans that support the scene doesn't like. We don't like it when they're being forced to play a game they didn't have passion for it.
I don't know what your second point means. Starcraft 2 fans don't even like the game? Or that every sc2 fan would prefer broodwar if it came back, implying that they all used to follow bw before sc2? I don't believe either one and but hey that's just my opinion.
Otherwise you have fair points. I'm just calling out all the people who want players like Jaedong or Flash to switch back even though they have had great results after transitioning.
jaedong might have had ok results, but flash has definitely not had great results. you clearly didnt follow the bw scene, because otherwise you would know that players of jaedong and flash's calibre are capable of so much more. and the fans not supporting the scene is the stadiums being empty and overall interest being hella low. id also be willing to bet that a vast majority of sc2 players around the world dont even follow the pro scene. they might play the game, but they have no interest in professional games or players because they just play casually etc.
Even though I did not follow the scene then, I know enough about Flash's history. He hasn't had that much success yet in individual leagues and Flash himself has said he has obvious weaknesses in his play. But you cannot disregard his most wins trophy in the last Proleague season. I'd give him some more time to prove himself.
I agree that he's nowhere near his God status in bw but nobody has dominated this game for a long period of time yet.
After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
I think it's due to SCII's decrease in popularity in Korea. It's nowhere near BW's popularity and then some of the players are left questioning what's the point of getting better if there's no audience to play for. Also, it's possible some aren't satisfied with the game seeing as how the races play completely differently from BW.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
I don't know about that, Daigo looks as strong as he has ever been :p (ok almost as strong :/)
As for SC2, i feel it's just overall a more volatile game, thus making it hard for players to establish dominance. 2 years worth of domination? Doesn't look possible w SC2. Whereas in BW we have a few: 4, 5 if u count TBLS as a whole (nvr considered Flash a Bonjwa myself.. he especially never really dominated Stork).
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
**SC2 Switch**
2013 WCS Season 1: Eliminated in the Round of 16 2013 WCS Season 2: Eliminated in the Round of 16 2013 WCS Season 3: Eliminated in the Round of 16 (And they say you can't be consistent in SC2!)
These are not bad results at all, but for a player people were calling God even months after he switched to SC2, they're still not that great, in either game. Flash's time as Bonjwa ended in BW, and if the scene had been healthy, he'd have been surpassed by now. He still wins a lot (he was MVP in Proleague for a reason), and still shows up in major tournaments, but his best days are behind him, and this'd be true without an SC2 switch as well.
Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
The best KeSPA players in SC2 are Soulkey, Rain, and Bogus, none of whom were B-teamers. B-teamers dominated until the KeSPA switch, and now it's either BW A-teamers or SC2 players who weren't BW players. Polt is the only WC3 player who's really doing well in SC2.
But, I think it's simply that
A.) A lot of KeSPA pros don't like SC2 (the ones that did switched long before KeSPA did) B.) A lot of A-teamers don't like that they're not better than everyone anymore, and this is demoralizing them further. C.) It's easy to get into a "this game sucks because I'm bad at it because this game sucks" feedback loop, which is fatal. (IdrA was the only player to do this openly and often, but I imagine a lot of players felt the same) D.) SC2, and especially SC2 protoss, has a different skill set than BW. BW was a lot more mechanical, but SC2 you win by decision making. That's why some players can be mechanically superb and then suck for a while if the metagame changes (See: Innovation). While there are SC2 players who are mechanically superior (Scarlett!), you can't rely on pure mechanics as much. Like, Flash could beat any B player on ICCUP without reacting to his opponent at all. He'd just do his thing and crush on pure mechanics without even needing to think about anything. Harder to do that in SC2. People tend to talk about SC2 like mechanics/APM don't matter at all, which is kind of an exaggeration, but no one can deny it matters less than BW, the most mechanically intensive game ever made. While Scarlett is mechanically superb, she has "only" 190 APM or so, IIRC. That's really fast for most people, but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW. In SC2 it's a much smaller edge.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway)
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level? Didn't people say the skill translates much smoothly? The most successful players seems to be former WC3 pros and the B-class Broodwar players. Is there something in the metagame that frustrates them? I see the same "fall of dominance" in fighting games with Justin Wong, Yipes, Sanford etc.
I don't know about that, Daigo looks as strong as he has ever been :p (ok almost as strong :/)
As for SC2, i feel it's just overall a more volatile game, thus making it hard for players to establish dominance. 2 years worth of domination? Doesn't look possible w SC2.
January 2011 - Wins GSL May 2011 - Wins GSL August 2011 - Wins GSL August 2011 - Wins MLG October 2011 - Second place in GSL (which was a one-month tournament back then) October 2011 - Wins Blizzcon December 2011 - Wins WCG
That was back when the SC2 scene declared whoever most recently won a game to be the NEXT BONJWA, but MVP dominated 2011 pretty thoroughly (and anything he didn't win that year, Zergbong did), and won some major tournaments in 2012 as well
On October 01 2013 05:51 Pisko. wrote: I'm glad he retired from SC2, it was depressing watching him force himself to play a game he clearly didn't like.
I hope every progamer that feels this way does the same. Let's make SSL bigger!
DES promised additional Bisu interview content today, but these two pieces are all that I see on their page, so I guess this is all they were talking about.
Kim Taek-Yong: "Coach Lim Yo-Hwan, I'm very sorry"
Kim Taek-Yong (Bisu), who retired recently, expressed his apologies to former SK Telecom T1 coach Lim Yo-Hwan (Boxer).
He said, "Shorty after my retirement, I heard that coach Lim Yo-Hwan had left the team. It felt like he had left because of me, so I felt bad about it."
Lim Yo-Hwan's care for Kim Taek-Yong was extraordinary. Placing importance on elements beyond just match results, he placed great expectations upon Kim Taek-Yong. He had even given him the title "Post Lim Yo-Hwan".
When Lim Yo-Hwan took the role of SK Telecom's head coach, his most urgent priority was to get Kim Taek-Yong back on track. Last season of Proleague, in order to improve Kim Taek-Yong's results in Starcraft 2, he told him, "I won't send you out in rounds 2 and 3, so prepare well for Heart of the Swarm."
Kim Taek-Yong was well aware that Lim Yo-Hwan was investing a great deal in reviving him. In order to respond to this trust, he stayed up late practicing for Heart of the Swarm.
However, the results were not good, and even up to the moment of retirement, Kim Taek-Yong was very sorry toward Lim Yo-Hwan who had placed so much trust in him. He was not able to tell him, and it stayed in his mind even after leaving the team.
Kim Taek-Yong said, "To coach Lim Yo-Hwan who invested so much in me without hesitation, I am forever grateful and sorry. I hope that he will do well in whatever he chooses from now on."
Kim Taek-Yong told us of his regrets and advice regarding e-sports.
Prior to his retirement, as a member of "TaekBangLeeSsang" leading the world of e-sports, Kim Taek-Yong had feelings of sadness regarding the current league system. He had the opinion that the current problems were due to an inability to satisfy the content-hungry fans.
Kim Taek-Yong's first point was regarding Proleague. He said, "It's not that I don't understand the sponsors' and Kespa's point of view, but playing so many matches, the players slowly lose their personality and the fans get bored easily."
Kim Taek-Yong believes that if Proleague had just one round with an appropriate number of games, StarCraft: Brood War could also have lasted longer. With a five round Proleague requiring so many games, the players tired quickly, which lowered the quality of play and also tired out the fans.
Another point was, "Focusing on Proleague so much at the expense of individual leagues also caused problems." He said, "Progamers define their unique styles in individual leagues, not Proleague, so when teams and Kespa de-emphasize individual leagues, it's difficult for memorable games or unique players to come out."
Kim Taek-Yong also had many regrets about the switch to StarCraft 2. Players, sponsors, and organizers all shifted their concentration to future plans, which ended up making the present situation worse and worse.
"Right now, everyone needs to unite and work together, but instead they only speak outwardly about how to revive the scene, while inwardly they think, 'What will we do once everything falls apart', and so the current problems remain unsolved."
"In order to overcome the current crisis, everyone working in e-sports needs to combine their strength. I hope that e-sports and StarCraft 2 events will receive so much love as to make me regret retiring."
On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote: but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway)
Savior came instantly to my mind. He dominated with only 200-250 apm, while there were players with over hundred more apm.
I don't know on what level play you're talking about, but when you're on top and mechanics are close to perfect, decision making is the most important part. 150(E)APM should be enough.
On October 02 2013 04:19 Ribbon wrote: but the difference between 200 APM and 300 APM was the world in BW.
(Not to imply BW didn't have decision making. But if I only had 150 APM it didn't matter if I outsmarted Flash, he'd beat me anyway)
Savior came instantly to my mind. He dominated with only 200-250 apm, while there were players with over hundred more apm.
I don't know on what level play you're talking about, but when you're on top and mechanics are close to perfect, decision making is the most important part. 150(E)APM should be enough.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I agree with everything that Bisu said is wrong with the way SC2 is currently broadcast. Back when SC2 was first picking up steam, I was saying that the amount of games and tournaments being played wasn't sustainable. Over saturating the market is terrible for the long term viability of anything. The OSL wouldn't be nearly as prestigious if it was played every month.
Less focus on individual leagues effects player perception too. It's where players made their mark; royal roaders would burst into the scene, underdogs would become heroes (Bisu vs. Savior?) and the attention on the individual made for great publicity for the game. It's similar to how professional wrestling in the US is based entirely on personalities; the stories alone that are generated by these players can be enough to drive a scene.
On October 02 2013 06:23 Tunga wrote: Thanks for the answers. I've mostly ignored the SC2 is dying meme but I guess there's some evidence to prove it's kinda true.
What's funny is that there is strong community support for Starcraft 2 in foreign scene. It's just the most of the pessimism comes from the Korean scene which were incompatible for Starcraft 2 to begin with but were coerced into it anyway. I doubt the game would have gotten this much bitterness and stigma had they established themselves on foreign scene only without directly affecting Brood War.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
I agree with the theory that APM/mechanics has less of an impact in SC2 though. I'd go so far as to say that SC2 is primarily about unit composition and engagements, with economy not really being that big of a deal because of the easy macro mechanics (and thus, a lost battle in BW that leads to the opponent attacking with a superior force can be delayed and even stopped by superior macro play, whereas a similarly lost battle in SC2 means an instant supply gap that will not be recovered in time before being overwhelmed). In that sense, the individual advantages of the S-Class BW players in mechanics weren't really felt all that much in Sc2. This is why mechanically sound A-Class BW players now dominate the SC2 scene - there's really no differentiating the mechanics of someone like Innovation to that of, say Fantasy or Flash (who's even less of a multitasker). Of course, overshadowing all these points is the passion of the player for the game, and the tailoring of his or her skills to the differences. I remember thinking in BW that MVP was a really good player - superior mechanics than most - but that he was held back by taking too many risks, something that turned into a strength when he played SC2.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened. BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch. I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
In terms of why would he slowly slide down? He's getting older, yo. BW, especially KeSPA style sweatshop BW, is a game for young people. He'd be slowing down.
I agree with the theory that APM/mechanics has less of an impact in SC2 though. I'd go so far as to say that SC2 is primarily about unit composition and engagements, with economy not really being that big of a deal because of the easy macro mechanics (and thus, a lost battle in BW that leads to the opponent attacking with a superior force can be delayed and even stopped by superior macro play, whereas a similarly lost battle in SC2 means an instant supply gap that will not be recovered in time before being overwhelmed). In that sense, the individual advantages of the S-Class BW players in mechanics weren't really felt all that much in Sc2. This is why mechanically sound A-Class BW players now dominate the SC2 scene - there's really no differentiating the mechanics of someone like Innovation to that of, say Fantasy or Flash (who's even less of a multitasker). Of course, overshadowing all these points is the passion of the player for the game, and the tailoring of his or her skills to the differences. I remember thinking in BW that MVP was a really good player - superior mechanics than most - but that he was held back by taking too many risks, something that turned into a strength when he played SC2.
SC2 is, in fairness, mechanically much harder than any game besides BW. And there are differences that are notable at a high level. Scarlett's mechanics are simply better than most Zergs, and it wins her games. But it rewards APM a bit less and decision-making a bit more (not to say that SC2 requires 30 APM or that BW is "I can click faster so I win", of course). They're slightly different skill sets. And vastly different skill sets going from BW Terran to SC2 Terran or BW Protoss to SC2 Protoss, since the races are so wildly different. SC2 Protoss is probably the biggest nexus of all SC2's flaws differences from BW, which is why KeSPA Protosses seem to be the group who hates SC2 the most. (Like Bisu! On topic once more!)
One point I'd like to add is that SC2 is less forgiving due to lack of defender's advantage. That's why it seems like engagements and compositions are the emphasis over the econ (which basically everyone can do decently). Basically one bad engage and you lose in the mid-game because the enemy army can just run up and start killing your natural as your units stream out of your base.
Actually I don't think the easier macro is that big of a deal. Basically by the end of BW, everyone could macro really well. All it really does is lower the amount of memory and APM dedicated to the econ. So naturally this should free up mental resources for other stuff like strategy and micro. However, SCII doesn't require super micro because of the tendency for SCII units to not be able to kill much more than their cost no matter how much micro you have.
So given the lack of defender's advantage, and unit potential when microed, you end up with giant army blobs colliding into each other which is quite dull compared to the variety of viable army encounters in broodwar.
A lot of SC2 pros are actually not as on top of their macro as they should be.
On October 04 2013 03:06 Antisocialmunky wrote: So given the lack of defender's advantage, and unit potential when microed, you end up with giant army blobs colliding into each other which is quite dull compared to the variety of viable army encounters in broodwar.
Watch any SC2 TvZ in the last few months (I recommend this one!*), the "my blob beat your blob so I win" has been replaced with a 20 minute endless rally battle. People are getting kind of sick of it because it's all that happens TvZ, but I'll take it over Infestor/Broodlord blobs, or the Colossus Blobs we used to see PvP
On October 04 2013 03:06 Antisocialmunky wrote:However, SCII doesn't require super micro because of the tendency for SCII units to not be able to kill much more than their cost
I don't think I've heard that one before. I've seen a 75/25 mine kill 1275/425 worth of banelings in one shot, and every Terran's lost their whole army to two storms at least once. If anything, it's too possible for units to trade efficiently. If two armies kill each other, the game goes on. The "my blob wins lol" happens when one army vaporizes the other.
*Youtube and TL seem to hate each other. My example game starts at the 61 minute mark
Well I guess I'm somewhat stuck in the past as I quit watching sometime right before HotS.
Actually I'm pretty familiar with the 20 minute endless rally battle as mass marining strategies always had that as a the trademark if you could keep the zerg from massing. I personally still like TvZ match up the best but I don't like the widow mine making Terran reinforcement paths so harass resistant. It was better when you had to mass reinforcements to move out because zerg could catch you out in the open.
I would say that the widow mine, some of the new HotS units, and sentries have Broodwar levels in efficiency. But I was mainly referring to units where micro can make them several times better. Tricks like splitting marines against banelings or zerg splitting against widow mines would be good examples of this in SCII. But hellion micro isn't on the same level as vulture micro (hellions pause just long enough where speedlings can catch up to them if they fire), HTs are nowhere near as powerful as old HTs even if you account for clumpiness (HT's and reavers made M&M completely impractical after all), and I don't think there's anything comparable with microing defilers and dark swarm.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch.
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
In terms of why would he slowly slide down? He's getting older, yo. BW, especially KeSPA style sweatshop BW, is a game for young people. He'd be slowing down.
Flash was still relatively young, and was revealing signs of significant improvement in his play, even up until 2011/2012. He was not slowing down, and likely would have continued to improve. Until he started slumping hard suddenly(not a slowing down - just playing terribly) near the switch, he was unquestionably the best player in the world by far (except Jaedong) due to both his winning record, and the style in which he won his games: Flash's methodical/skillful/soul crushing destruction of his opponents revealed an unquestioned dominance in EVERY facet of the game. If things had continued there is little doubt that he would have maintained his position at the top. (again, not just by his record, but the content of the game, you could tell Flash was still crushing, and continuously improving, even relatively late - most games there were essentially no openings for his opponent to capitalize on) For anyone who has followed BW in detail, these are things that would be patently obvious. Just watch all the Proleague/MSL/OSL games since Flash entered the scene, and it should be easy to see. Also, ask anyone in the professional Korean scene, and they will tell you no different.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Actually I don't think the easier macro is that big of a deal. Basically by the end of BW, everyone could macro really well.
While it's true that modern players macro a lot better than the early generation players, and that there has been a general increase in understanding, regarding what constitutes effective macro, to say "everyone could macro really well" is incorrect. In 2012 (and the years preceding) there was an absolutely huge discrepancy in macromanagement ability overall: compare players like Flash, Best, Really, Zero who were able to gain an edge(in one respect, at least) on essentially any other opponent, by way of superior macro - this edge would be magnified in the late game. There were players on the opposite spectrum, who actually were forced to avoid late-game macro oriented games, because their macro simply wasn't good enough. Of course, there were players, everywhere in between as well.
All it really does is lower the amount of memory and APM dedicated to the econ. So naturally this should free up mental resources for other stuff like strategy and micro.
This was the theory of course, and on the face of it, not necessarily unreasonable. However, whether or not this concept(automining) - put into practice - would yield a better/more entertaining/more fun game, even in optimal circumstances (ie. with a good game in all other respects) cannot be concluded at this point. The fact that in you can gain on edge on opponents by so many means (strategically, economically, tactically, by micro) is - to put it lightly - not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed Starcraft's mechanical complexity/difficulty, might have been a primary reason why it has been so successful, and removing it might not have had the desired effect, or even detracted from the overall quality of the game, both from a casual and professional entertainment standpoint.
Was automining a/the problem in SC2? It's hard to tell. SC2 was such an abject failure in all the aspects that made BW such a successful game(from a player, and professional entertainment standpoint), it doesn't really serve to focus on one.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch.
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch.
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥
Last 3 years of BW was basically Leessang Rok (Flash v Jaedong), rookie sensations like Snow, the ascension of Fantasy as the successor of the SKT empire, and the resurgence of Jangbi. It wasn't all TBLS. Stork and Bisu were only successful in one aspect (Stork in individuals, Bisu in proleague). Flash was the name to beat, but it made things more fun. If you were an anti-fan, you'd cheer for anyone to beat him (like when Really broke his TvT streak). As a fan, you'd just sit there amazed at how good he was.
And while we call him God, he wasn't immortal at all. He bled. Reality, Jangbi, Fantasy... anyone had a shot, but Flash was good enough to always bounce back and reclaim the throne. It really saddened me when he never got the chance because the scene shifted to SC2.
Honestly, I can't see how the scene stagnated or became dull. It was really really fun, up to the time when Bisu beat Flash for the proleague GF (something he's always had a hard time doing).
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up.
And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I'm sure there were many others that felt the same, which probably explains, to a certain extent, why Jangbi's back-to-back championships were so memorable.
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
BW needed another Revolutionist (back on topic, yeah!) to knock him off his perch.
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥
On October 01 2013 23:46 evilfatsh1t wrote: its not ill wishing. its speaking the truth. when bisu says first hand that he is saddened by a non existant fan base in korea, you know sc2 is a failed game.
It's not a failure if it isn't as huge as broodwar was at its peak. Starcraft 2 is big globally but just not at the level BW was in Korea. MOBA is the next big thing, resulting in Proleague shifting towards LoL more.
Most of the people wanting someone to retire is for selfish reasons (wanting them to play bw again), not because they are heartbroken how they suffer from playing this rotten ridiculous game called sc2.
We don't like it when our beloved player plays a game they don't like. We don't like it when we know they've worked so hard to be on the A-team just to play a sequel when the fans that support the scene doesn't like. We don't like it when they're being forced to play a game they didn't have passion for it.
I don't know what your second point means. Starcraft 2 fans don't even like the game? Or that every sc2 fan would prefer broodwar if it came back, implying that they all used to follow bw before sc2? I don't believe either one and but hey that's just my opinion.
Otherwise you have fair points. I'm just calling out all the people who want players like Jaedong or Flash to switch back even though they have had great results after transitioning.
It means the pros work so hard on BW to become the best at it. And then they were forced to play a different game or bye bye their job. Yeah what's no to love right ?
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up.
And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit?
TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken).
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up.
And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit?
TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken).
Yeah lol. I was trying to make fun of Ribbon's spelling mistake TLBS instead of TBLS
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up.
And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit?
TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken).
Yeah lol. I was trying to make fun of Ribbon's spelling mistake TLBS instead of TBLS
Oh ok. I thought that you didn't know because you have a low post count i assume you were new and didn't know about bw. My bad
On October 04 2013 16:07 Caladbolg wrote: And while we call him God, he wasn't immortal at all. He bled.
Right.
The time I followed BW most closely was the time when Flash and Jaedong was the finals of everything (Can anyone really claim TBLS was 4 players of equal skill?), and Effort beating Flash (even if the final game was just a BO win) was a huge deal. By the end of KeSPA BW, Flash was a really good player. In fact, he was probably still the best player in BW. But I think the length of his reign was starting to get people to overhype him slightly. Making it to the elimination bracket of the last three OSLs was a massive acheivement few can do. But is failing to make the finals of an OSL three times in a row what a god would do? I realize it's a ludicrously high standard, but the way people talk about Flash (especially in retrospect) was that he never really beat everyone, he just allowed them to lose, and he was literally invincible etc etc etc. (In fairness, a lot of this comes from hipster SC2 players who will go on at length about how BW was the superior game despite never playing or watching it) As someone who was admittedly a Flash anti-fan pretty much since day 1, it grates a bit. I hated him being so good
Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work
That actually sounds really cool. Recommended VOD?
Didn't Valks not fire lategame BW because of the sprite limits that were the eternal bane of my infiinite minefield UMS maps from when I was 10?
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I'm sure there were many others that felt the same, which probably explains, to a certain extent, why Jangbi's back-to-back championships were so memorable.
Yes, I'm tripping myself up with my "TBLS was the entirety of Starcraft and also Flash was losing dominance" arguments at odds with themselves. There was a very very very long period of TBLS, and then other players started to win things, which was good but maybe too little too late to save KeSPA.
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥
You obviously have certain personal feelings on what Flash and the BW scene were/should have been, however, how the situation was perceived by the majority of fans, and those personally involved in the Korean BW scene (ie. players, coaches, casters - those with the most informed/relevant opinion), was completely the opposite. (which is why first hand immersive experience regarding Korean BW (ie. watching/understanding ALL the games, and listening to/understanding ALL the professional Korean/foreign commentary for the past 5 years or so) would be informative - watch/understand everything, and it would be terribly difficult to miss all the things you seem to have missed.
Your personal feelings on Flash/TBLS and Broodwar (ie. what was boring, what should or shouldn't have happened), cannot reasonably be transposed onto reality(mostly because opinions that are not fully informed, are not meaningful), and are probably due to lack of information/understanding regarding the scene (especially Pro Korean commentary)(regarding almost all of your points: the exact opposite is likely true). Examples of why this is likely the case, can be found in my previous post.
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Firebats, I see, are now more is style for Terrans. As is getting manhandled, apparently.
Let's see...
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
But a "standard" TvZ is about the same?
standard is usually 1 rax FE vs. hatch first in TvZ far as I know. Didn't disagree with that part*
EPT
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