On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
Flash's dominance was not emblematic of BW sickness IMO. I think it was rather a sign that the skill bar simply wasn't rising as quickly as it had up to that point. Yes, I think the main reason BW players tended to retire at a rather young age had more to do with the general level of play constantly rising than it had to do with the older players skill getting worse. I don't necessarily think Nada as of 2009 played much worse than Nada as of 2005, it was just that everyone else had caught up.
And naturally, there will eventually be a point at which the general skill levels can't increase as rapidly anymore. I believe that's what happened in BW in the TBLS era. New things were still discovered, players were still getting better. But perhaps not as rapidly as before. Giving people like Flash the opportunity to dominate for a much longer time.
On October 04 2013 13:13 Ribbon wrote: The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
TLBS = Team Liquid Bull Shit?
TBLS = TaekBangLeeSsang (Did i spell that right ?) Taek = Bisu Bang = Stork Leessang = Jaedong/Flash (mean the two lee(s) if i'm not mistaken).
Yeah lol. I was trying to make fun of Ribbon's spelling mistake TLBS instead of TBLS
Oh ok. I thought that you didn't know because you have a low post count i assume you were new and didn't know about bw. My bad
On October 04 2013 16:07 Caladbolg wrote: And while we call him God, he wasn't immortal at all. He bled.
Right.
The time I followed BW most closely was the time when Flash and Jaedong was the finals of everything (Can anyone really claim TBLS was 4 players of equal skill?), and Effort beating Flash (even if the final game was just a BO win) was a huge deal. By the end of KeSPA BW, Flash was a really good player. In fact, he was probably still the best player in BW. But I think the length of his reign was starting to get people to overhype him slightly. Making it to the elimination bracket of the last three OSLs was a massive acheivement few can do. But is failing to make the finals of an OSL three times in a row what a god would do? I realize it's a ludicrously high standard, but the way people talk about Flash (especially in retrospect) was that he never really beat everyone, he just allowed them to lose, and he was literally invincible etc etc etc. (In fairness, a lot of this comes from hipster SC2 players who will go on at length about how BW was the superior game despite never playing or watching it) As someone who was admittedly a Flash anti-fan pretty much since day 1, it grates a bit. I hated him being so good
Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work
That actually sounds really cool. Recommended VOD?
Didn't Valks not fire lategame BW because of the sprite limits that were the eternal bane of my infiinite minefield UMS maps from when I was 10?
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I'm sure there were many others that felt the same, which probably explains, to a certain extent, why Jangbi's back-to-back championships were so memorable.
Yes, I'm tripping myself up with my "TBLS was the entirety of Starcraft and also Flash was losing dominance" arguments at odds with themselves. There was a very very very long period of TBLS, and then other players started to win things, which was good but maybe too little too late to save KeSPA.
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
On October 02 2013 02:56 Tunga wrote: After only following the BW scene and not the SC2 scene, I'm wondering why is it so hard for the most successful broodwar players to play SC2 at the same level?
I feel like I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but Flash is actually doing about as well in SC2 as he was in the last year or so of BW. Which is to say, really good but still kind of over-rated.
2010 Bacchus OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 16 2011 Jin Air OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 8 2012 Tving OSL - Eliminated in the Round of 4.
I promise not to hammer you too hard... 2010: He also WON 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Bigfile MBCGame StarCraft League 2010 Korean Air OnGameNet Starleague Season 2 2010 WCG Korea Finals (silver)
SPL FINALS Champions
2011: He WON The last MSL 2011 ABC Mart MBCGame StarCraft League SPL Finals Champions 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL 34 wins - 13 losses (72.34%)
2012: He placed 4th in the ONLY individual league while: Carrying his team to the Winners League Finals Carried his team to Another SPL finals 19-5 with 79.17% win rate in SPL
In those three years: 216 wins - 77 losses (73.72%)
You may have survived your statement a little if you left out 2010...but still good grief. He WON 14 games in a row before losing and everyone was calling him immortal! And he only lost cause of a missing turret. So I'll end this with a nice commerorative picture.
I'm not saying he was bad by any means. He was still an S-class player. I'm just saying that his "fall" in SC2 is partially because his record is overstated (especially newer people who started with SC2 and think Flash literally never lost in BW).
Between Proleague and GSL, Flash is a combined 82-45 in SC2. (I think It'd be higher if I included MLG, but I don't know where those stats are). If BW never hit any issues, would be have been shocked to see Flash getting 65% right now? Dude was a Bonjwa for like a million years, and was already on track to be "merely" the best player on KT. He's getting older, yo. Going from 73% in PL to 68% in PL was going to happen. Especially given that he was 86% in 2010 and you're giving me a three-year number.
On October 02 2013 13:19 tomastaz wrote: Bisu =( I hope SC2 becomes popular again. If only some of the problems could be fixed.
FX Open just pulled sponsorship from their Korean team, explicitly because SC2 isn't worth it anymore. While I think the HotS was a major improvement over WoL, and that LotV will likely be a major improvement over HotS, it's never going to be the game BW fans want unless they break the pathing, which Blizz has explicitly ruled out. If Blizz raised the supply cap to 300 or at least 250, we'd get out of the "3-base cap" (side note: what was the cap in BW? 5 mining bases?), which Lalush says would help a lot and I'm a little more skeptical of because I see 4 base Zergs a lot and even saw Scarlett take five bases before the ten minute mark yesterday (ironically, the game kind of sucked). But at this point, even if SC2 became the HD BW everyone wants, it'd probably be too late.
I don't get how you conclude that Flash was going to eventually be surpassed. He had a couple of bad tournaments (2 OSLs, if you define losing out in the RO8 and 4 to the Legend of the Fall and Crown Prince is bad), and Fantasy was catching up, but overall Flash was still the best (proleague + individual leagues).
His reign was longer than the other four Bonjwas combined. That shouldn't have happened.
There is no question that it did, and should have happened. Results are determined by how well you play. If you maintain a significant skill edge over your opponents, your results should correspond with that skill difference. Whether his reign was the same length as 4 Bonjwas, or double/triple/10 times longer - it is completely irrelevant. In this case, what you think should or shouldn't have happened, has no bearing on reality.
The fact that no one came along to surpass his is emblematic of how sick the BW scene was, imo (and was also really boring).
There is no need for anything. Flash did not need to be so much better than everyone else(except Jaedong), but he was, and he deserved his spot at the top. Similarly no one needs to come along and start playing better than Flash - but If someone earns it/deserves it, and becomes better than Flash, so be it.
The last three years of KeSPA was TLBS and friends. I was sick of Flash vs Jaedong every other finals back in 2010. It was the same thing, over and over and over.
I actually think Flash's eternal reign was in and of itself bad for BW, but it was at the very least a symptom of a BW that was kind of treading water a little.
I was never a Flash fan, but there is nothing more compelling than watching a player - whatever the sport - at the absolute peak of performance, and that was what Flash offered. His lucrative contract, and hype in the Korean scene: "The Ultimate Weapon," - the tension in the air every time he sat down in the booth, backed that up. Again, whether you personally think he was good or bad for BW is irrelevant; the real conception of things is far more complex and meaningful. BW was in no way treading water. If you look at the playstyles every couple years since Pro-BW started, there have been observable changes in every time period - indeed this is one of the features that sets BW apart from any other RTS game 10+ years after its creation. Indeed one of the reason's Flash was dominating so badly, is that was doing things no one else had done before - the essence of innovation...His perfect macro timings, strategical adaptability, innovative builds, his mind reading comsat scans, unbelievable game sense, and much more. BW in 2011/2012 was still as interesting as anything else, and would have remained so; players, maps, strategy, tactics, always changing always improving, and there was no indication otherwise (although the play did become noticeably sloppy when players were forced to split time).
When I was following BW most closely, you could set your watch by TvZ. Terran would take a control group of medic marine up to the near the Zerg's natural, then Zerg would make sunks and Terran would turn around, happy to have forced said sunks. Mutas would harass Terran for a bit until science vessels came out, because science vessels hard counter mutas. Terran would then go into SK Terran against Ling/Lurker (and some scourge) into Ultra/Ling/Defiler, irradiating lurkers midgame and defilers lategame and occasionally irradiating ultras even though this made Ultras "do more damage" against Terran's own bio. Is that still TvZ? Because that's what it was when I was watching it.
By your posts, it just seems like you lack any realistic/coherent conception of Flash, or the Korean Pro Broodwar scene. Did you follow the scene in detail? If so, it did not avail you much.. Even bad posts sometimes have redeeming qualities, but in this case, every single point in your previous post, was bizarrely misguided, irrelevant, or simply wrong.
Most of my BW experience comes from Violetak's channel and occasionally Sayle. I'll admit that my knowledge of BW isn't encyclopedic, though I'll also admit that I just really hate Flash and his stupid ruler, and I have since late 2010. Hyuk was the true superstar of BW, in my mind. He left a 3hp nexus in my heart ♥
You obviously have certain personal feelings on what Flash and the BW scene were/should have been, however, how the situation was perceived by the majority of fans, and those personally involved in the Korean BW scene (ie. players, coaches, casters - those with the most informed/relevant opinion), was completely the opposite. (which is why first hand immersive experience regarding Korean BW (ie. watching/understanding ALL the games, and listening to/understanding ALL the professional Korean/foreign commentary for the past 5 years or so) would be informative - watch/understand everything, and it would be terribly difficult to miss all the things you seem to have missed.
Your personal feelings on Flash/TBLS and Broodwar (ie. what was boring, what should or shouldn't have happened), cannot reasonably be transposed onto reality(mostly because opinions that are not fully informed, are not meaningful), and are probably due to lack of information/understanding regarding the scene (especially Pro Korean commentary)(regarding almost all of your points: the exact opposite is likely true). Examples of why this is likely the case, can be found in my previous post.
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Firebats, I see, are now more is style for Terrans. As is getting manhandled, apparently.
Let's see...
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
And as to your TvZ description... I dunno if you were able to follow the time when mech transitions were the flavor of the month, or when Flash executed such brutal timing attacks that you'd wonder how a Zerg could ever reach mid-late game against him, or the Valkyrie era when Valkonic began to work... Sometimes even wraiths were being incorporated (esp by Light, to devastating effect) as a counter-mutalisk threat that also served as a drone-line harasser. So many different things happened and it was beautiful to watch. Crazy Zerg? Yeah it worked. Early defilers? Yeah just spam sunkens.
How can any one forget when guardians and queens became standard in ZvT?
Or when Jaedong used lurkers + ensnare to demolish Fantasy's bio?
You guys are right. It's been a while since I've followed BW that closely in non-silly tournaments. I'm sure that TvZ isn't "push out with Marine Medic to force sunkens, then defend muta/ling until Science Vessels are out, and then go Medic/Marine/Vessel against Lurker/Ling into Lurker/Ling/Defiler into Ultra/Ling/Defiler and a few lurks (and some scourge during all this to kill vessel clouds).
Oh, this is much more interesting. The Zerg kind of played like what I think is "normal", but the bio/vessel into mech build is something I haven't seen much of (even if I've seen a bit of mech TvZ). I think BW Tanks are the coolest unit ever - which is why I'm that weird guy in the corner whose favorite matchup is TvT - so this was really neat. I was much more interested in this match than the earlier one. Is this something that happens often?
It's really late, but I think I'll watch the rest of the recommended SRT Ro16 VODs tomorrow. Are there any English SRT casters?
while I can't say I fully disagree with your statement, I don't full agree either. I mean ya, in general, most TvZs I've seen have that kind of structure but then there are ones where the terran goes for cheese or another strat. Ex. a sunken bust, 2 port wraith(seen Hiya do it) or opens mech. You say that a terran defend against muta/ling until science vessels are out? That's not always the case(sunken bust for ex). Take a look at the jaedong vs Skyhigh game on destination. It's in the unusual and cool games thread, last page. Amazing game and shows just how dynamic the matchup can be if you prepare for your opponent and prepare snipe builds
But a "standard" TvZ is about the same?
standard is usually 1 rax FE vs. hatch first in TvZ far as I know. Didn't disagree with that part*
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