EPT[D] PvZ Beating Stephano Style Roaches - Page 74
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eXeSnight
United Kingdom6 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On May 04 2012 18:43 NrGmonk wrote: Yea, I'm of the opinion that you need immortals as well. If you rely solely on gateway walls and units, you won't have enough dps to punish roaches killing your walls. Too bad cause this basically means that you need to incorporate immortals someway into every macro build. I've seen 2 builds recently that looked pretty decent vs this. One was Puzzle's builds in the GSL which was quick robo into double obs immortal into 3rd. The other was Hero's build vs Stephano in EGMC, which was double voidray into phoenix plus 1 robo into mass immortal off of 1 gateway, then add gates into 3rd. I think immortals work well but there are also some disadvantages with them. On maps where the 3rd is far away like daybreak their slow speed is a problem. Also if the opponent goes mutas immortals kinda suck. I like Hasuobs' build. He goes twighlight blink, sentry and hallu. He uses it to scout and to locate the army. | ||
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Avean
Norway449 Posts
There are two builds ive done (Builds ive made myself) to beat this. 1) Go two robo out of 2 bases and pump immortals. Zerg hit me with 200 army and i had 120 and i beat him. I had like 16 immortals and sentries. But the important part here is that even though u will beat his first army, its important to go after his bases IMMEDIATLY cause he will pump out speedling or lay down a hydra den. If you not attack immediatly you will simply loose cause zerg at this point will out produce you. 2) Attack them with 6-gate before 9 minute mark. They are saving alot of money to pump out roaches. If you miss this timing you are dead  If anyone has a better build then please post it. But reading people going 4-5 colossus ? That will never work unless you have a shitton of sentries. Roaches can take alot of punishment and focus target your colossus in seconds. In my opionion you need to hard counter in mass with immortals or get them when they are vulnerable. | ||
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Partypants
Australia50 Posts
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Complete
United States1864 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:27 Partypants wrote: Toss has figured how to stop your 3rd incredible easy now , so much that i don't 3 hatch vs them. Last 4 toss have hit hard with 3-4 zeals then followed it up with 3 gate/voids non stop around 8 min , and its not pretty considering your still droning at the point. Should note this is FFE You need to scout and recognize you're getting pressured and stop droning. Your first wave of units should be finished by 7:30-8:15 depending on what you scouted early in the game in terms of chronos/gateway timing. After that you need to make an informed decision about how the game is going, and possibly sack an ovie or 2 to figure out what's going on. If there's a chance he has a forward pylon then there's a chance he's being aggressive you need to make more units, obviously its preferable to be 100% certain by diligent scouting for proxy pylons/probes. Other than that you should have a very good idea what's going on with speedligns if he has to march accross the map. Protip: a properly executed 3 hatch opening is the 'counter' to every 2 base protoss ffe timing in the first 12 minutes of the game. | ||
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FataLe
New Zealand4481 Posts
On May 09 2012 08:27 Partypants wrote: Toss has figured how to stop your 3rd incredible easy now , so much that i don't 3 hatch vs them. Last 4 toss have hit hard with 3-4 zeals then followed it up with 3 gate/voids non stop around 8 min , and its not pretty considering your still droning at the point. Should note this is FFE oh that's cool. funny cos gsl zergs still 3 hatch. you must be right though. On point, I don't believe in double robo off two base, feels like you're going too blindly. I prefer the stargate to quick robo build or quick 3rd hard passive play. Seems the only viable way unless you're going to whip out the plethora of 2 base timings to 3rd. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
Most P's have learned how to battle the maxed roach push (kinda map dependant tho and still requires good micro/ crisis management from the toss). After some weeks, Z's realize this. Then now, smart and top Z's are faking this pressure, and rushing some tech (banking into muta, roach/ling/infestor pushes, or brood rush with infestor backup). More than ever, for any macro toss, proper scouting info is a must at about 9-10 min mark. | ||
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Partypants
Australia50 Posts
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Partypants
Australia50 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 09 2012 09:35 Partypants wrote: explain to me how you scout 4 hidden zeals being hidden in the back of a toss's base , that first 10 min is crucial , u get supply blocked your dead. there going standard ffe into void but pumping out zeals into 3 gate. those rubbish games of white-ra vs steph his zeal opening were stupid. these actually do damage + as guy above said toss know how to shut this down properly now, heavy sentry with alot of immortals rapes it badly or extreme air pressure ie . squirtle vs steph 6/0 lol You don't know what you're talking about. You scout "hidden" zealots by looking at his gateway. Then make lings appropriately. Just because you can't defend it doesn't meant high level zergs can't. You should hit barely above 60 drones vs a 4 gate into immortal all-in. Squirtle never played Stephano. | ||
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chestnutcc
India429 Posts
On May 09 2012 12:18 NrGmonk wrote: You don't know what you're talking about. You scout "hidden" zealots by looking at his gateway. Then make lings appropriately. Just because you can't defend it doesn't meant high level zergs can't. You should hit barely above 60 drones vs a 4 gate into immortal all-in. Squirtle never played Stephano. He's referring to Stephano's Korea replay pack, which has several games vs squirtle, all of which he loses. But that was while ago, and squirtle used heavy two base pressure / all ins each game. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
SG goes void-4-5 phoenix, add your 3 gates after starting the void or the 1st phoenix; add robo after the 3 gates With your 1st phoenix, you need to scout the main and figure out what your opponent is doing with his Lair tech. Roach Warren, Evo, no ling speed This is the best indication that you are facing fast roach max. Zergs employing this will start exclusive roach production somewhere between 58-62 drones. This is usually reached around 9 minutes. If you see the roach flood begin at around 9:30-10:00 and no additional tech structures, it is happening! You want to add 2 additional gates immediately, to delay your twilight (get +1 armor after +1 attack, or skip armor and wait for a later +2), and begin cb'd immortal production. You don't want to over due it on sentries; 6-7 will do just fine. You always don't want to go overboard on your 3rd's simcity. I find that using gateways to limit space end up hurting me, as it limits the amount of your stalkers and immortals that can attack. You will want 2-3 cannons at the third, though. You cannot skimp here; the cannons are good not just for dps, but also for detection if your observer is elsewhere. 6 gates and a robo worth of production will do while you are saturating your third, but you will need to have 8-10 gates available when you no longer need to produce probes. I have had some success adding an additional void ray or two, since 6 gases is more than enough to support pure stalker/immortal. if you can kill the 4th afterwards, do it. if you can't, i think you really do need to go colo to deal with bl's eventually. blink ht archon and mothership are great and all, but reliable aoe against broodlings is absolutely invaluable | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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eery1
52 Posts
On May 09 2012 17:55 Alejandrisha wrote: SG goes void-4-5 phoenix add your 3 gates after starting the void or the 1st phoenix; add robo after the 3 gates ***insert third here*** add 2 additional gates immediately delay your twilight (get +1 armor after +1 attack, or skip armor and wait for a later +2), begin cb'd immortal production 2-3 cannons at the third 6 gates and a robo worth adding an additional void ray or two Been playing on NA cuz it's summer here (finally) and just using Alej's 3 base 3 colossus build these past two weeks then doing pretty much this same thing I've been able to hold fine against zergs at my level too [low diamond so insert grain of salt clause]. If I'm not mistaken, the third can be taken around 10:30 depending on how well your harass is doing and with some SG unit control you're able to see the mass roaches heading to your third/nat and do some pinch hitting with your voids/phx. At around 12minutes I'm at like 125-ish food, three cannons, 8ish sentries' worth of energy and a couple of immortals and voids which is good enough to give me a fighting chance. By around 12:40(?) your next warp in on like 6 or 7 gates comes in boosting supply to around 140-ish. I'm not good enough to get blink by this time so I don't know if that affects anything but with the sentries and immortals plus a ramp or some sim cities I'm usually able to hold with better micro. edit: Just wanna add that, yeah, they probably aren't hitting me with 200 worth of roaches at the perfect timing but playing smoothly with this style I'm able to defend my third without having to oversaturate my nat too badly. Also, the enemy has to build lings, queens, and spores to defend because Alej's build lets you do a bit of pressure with at least two zeals a void and a couple of pheonix from the eight to nine minute mark so that probably does at least a little to dent perfect macro, right? | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
I'm just saying if they have the spare minerals to make 2 extra queens out of each of 4 hatches, those 8 queens can take out a gateway in about 10 seconds (with +1), and though I doubt all 8 can fit in a concave out of range of the cannon - several of them can be out of cannon range if protoss uses standard cannon placements. Anyone else nervous about this? | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On May 09 2012 17:55 Alejandrisha wrote: i've had no trouble dealing with roach maxes when taking the 3rd after SG into robo SG goes void-4-5 phoenix, add your 3 gates after starting the void or the 1st phoenix; add robo after the 3 gates With your 1st phoenix, you need to scout the main and figure out what your opponent is doing with his Lair tech. Roach Warren, Evo, no ling speed This is the best indication that you are facing fast roach max. Zergs employing this will start exclusive roach production somewhere between 58-62 drones. This is usually reached around 9 minutes. If you see the roach flood begin at around 9:30-10:00 and no additional tech structures, it is happening! You want to add 2 additional gates immediately, to delay your twilight (get +1 armor after +1 attack, or skip armor and wait for a later +2), and begin cb'd immortal production. You don't want to over due it on sentries; 6-7 will do just fine. You always don't want to go overboard on your 3rd's simcity. I find that using gateways to limit space end up hurting me, as it limits the amount of your stalkers and immortals that can attack. You will want 2-3 cannons at the third, though. You cannot skimp here; the cannons are good not just for dps, but also for detection if your observer is elsewhere. 6 gates and a robo worth of production will do while you are saturating your third, but you will need to have 8-10 gates available when you no longer need to produce probes. I have had some success adding an additional void ray or two, since 6 gases is more than enough to support pure stalker/immortal. if you can kill the 4th afterwards, do it. if you can't, i think you really do need to go colo to deal with bl's eventually. blink ht archon and mothership are great and all, but reliable aoe against broodlings is absolutely invaluable I've been finding delaying the twilight and blink while going +1/+1 with 3 immortals is really good myself as well. Blink isn't as important as good forcefields and a solid defensive position when defending against the roaches so delaying it seems ok to me personally. On May 11 2012 03:41 Treehead wrote: Am I the only one worried that zerg's might start using range 5 queens to take out our simcities? I realize this requires a creep highway, and therefore is vulnerable to... early pushes with an observer? I'm just saying if they have the spare minerals to make 2 extra queens out of each of 4 hatches, those 8 queens can take out a gateway in about 10 seconds (with +1), and though I doubt all 8 can fit in a concave out of range of the cannon - several of them can be out of cannon range if protoss uses standard cannon placements. Anyone else nervous about this? If anything about 5 range queens worries me is it being more difficult to get my probe in to scout how much gas has been mined when trying to rule out a roach all in. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On May 11 2012 03:49 ZeromuS wrote:I've been finding delaying the twilight and blink while going +1/+1 with 3 immortals is really good myself as well. Blink isn't as important as good forcefields and a solid defensive position when defending against the roaches so delaying it seems ok to me personally. I do this as well. I also add an additional forge when I add the TC for the quicker armour, because of some zergs opt for really quick broodlords, and armour is pretty good against those. It also seems like a good long-term investment. Do you guys think it is worth it? or too expensive? | ||
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SCSbonkers
United States32 Posts
Personally against the max roach build that has been becoming more and more popular; or at least it seems in my PvZ ladder games in top 25 masters on the NA server, I've found that opening FFE into double robo and mainly all sentries works well. With a good sim city to funnel burrow movement, 3-5 immortals and 4-8 sentries with +1 (or +2 if you want to delay colossi), I can usually hold fairly well with good FF's. Just be sure not to lose the sentries, as 400-800 gas down the drain is GG at the 12-14min mark. I just make sure I have col tech and am making colossi as soon as I cap on the immortal count that I think is sufficient (usually 4). Then spend my warp ins on stalkers to make it a viable build. Taking the third after holding the push isn't that hard. Scouting Keep in mind that this build really only works solidly vs the 200/200 roach build that Stephano has so popularized. Hydras and Mutas obviously counter it instantly. Scouting is key in the first 10minutes (for every match-up), especially if you suspect the heavy roach play. General Build Idea After FFEing, I 3gate robo with observer first (it's even nicer now with the observer build time buff.) With this scouting observer, I remain active and check for all the signs that indicate a "Stephano" push. If the indications are there, then I throw my second robo down. If not then I just play a "Standard" PvZ with 1 robo and colossi. Of course this is all fairly vague, so feel free to message me. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
The second "innovation" was something I came up by watching Puzzle and Huk. Instead of trying to sim city your third on certain maps, instead sim city the ramp leading to your natural. Maps this is applicable on include Cloud Kingdom, Daybreak, and Atlantis Spaceship(when you take the rich 3rd). On each of these maps, there are problems with sim citying your 3rd for different reasons. Cloud Kingdom's 3rd has 2 entrances to sim. Daybreak's 3rd is relatively wide to fully sim and it doesn't have a ramp so roaches can easily pick off gateways if you try to do it that way. Altantis Spaceship just has an easily accessible rich 3rd you can abuse if you sim the ramp near your natural. So what you do is sim your natural and position your army at your 3rd unless you see a major attack coming from to your natural. Also, you can rally immortals to your natural to act as cannons. This game is a good example of the type of sim I'm talking about. | ||
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