TL Chess Match 4 - Page 73

I like where our queen is at, and see no point in hastly capturing a pawn. So I suggest we develop our pieces and start this by unpinning our horse.

The position after 11. Qxa7 Bg4 12. Qa4 Bxf3 13. Qxc6 Qd7 14. Qxd7 Kxd7 15. gxf3 Nxd2 16. Bxd2 Bxd2 17. Kxd2 Rxb2 18. Kc3 (protecting f2 without getting in the way of the Rooks):

Here you say that "Black soon will soon at least even up material"--but how? What's your plan for him?

Right now, what it looks like to me is that we've reached an endgame and we're still a pawn up. Yes, the doubled f-pawn creates a slight weakness (we have three pawn groups to protect instead of two), but overall I'd still rather be the side with the extra pawn.

Maybe I'm the one who's missing something. It's certainly possible, but then show me the plan.

11. Qxa7 Rb6 12. Qa4 Ba6 13. a3 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Qh4 15. Nxe4 Qxe4+ 16. Be3 Qxg2 17. O-O-O

11. Qxa7 Rb6 12. Qa4 Ba6 13. a3 Bxd2+ 14. Bxd2
[center]
Black to play
This works precisely because 12. Qa4 gains time by attacking the c6 pawn: when Black defends with the Rook, that's essentially an extra tempo Qa4 has gained, because the pawn will need to be defended again. White can afford to play a move like 14. Bxd2 and leave b2 undefended because if Black plays ...Rxb2, White can respond with Qxc6+. In this particular case, the Bishop on a6 means ...Rxb2 would actually be a losing move for Black. Frankly, I'm liking our position in the above diagram.

11. 0-0 seems promising and I like EvilNalu's line of 11. 0-0 Nxd2 12. Nxd2 Bxd2 13. Bxd2 Rxb2 14. Bc3. Black has to worry about the attack on his rook and the a and c pawns are still hanging in this line. We can regain our pawn with a more favorable position. Based on the analysis done already (thank you guys for taking the time to do so) on Qxc6+, I don't like the fact that the queens are probably going to come off the board and/or that our position may potentially be weaker than black's looking through all the potential lines (uncoordinated pieces) even though we have a pawn as compensation. The Qxa7 seems like a less forcing pawn grab and may give black more options to respond how he chooses, hence why I don't like this move. If we were to grab a pawn, might as well be the c6 pawn with check.


Edit in bold.

11...Qd7 (otherwise, either we can win another pawn with 12. Qxd5 or Black loses his ability to castle by moving his King) 12. QxQ+ (just about forced. Otherwise 12. Qc2 Ba6 puts us in a world of trouble. [for more details, see this post]) 12...BxQ (the most straightforward recapture and probably the most flexible for Black, who retains his King's ability to castle and his Bishop's to go to either side of the board.)

That brings us to the following situation:


and if we want to hold on to our extra pawn, we already have severe problems. Most of our pieces are tied up in one way or another. If we castle, for instance, Black can then trade off the minor pieces and then play Rxb2 after all, evening the material again, without his old weakness of doubled pawns. None of our options look promising:

• 13. a3: (the suggestion of jdseemoreglass, here. Its goal is to untangle the situation by forcing Black to exchange off the central pieces that are strangling us.) 13...B/Nxd2 14. Nxd2 N/Bxd2 15. Kxd2 (the order in which Black captures doesn't seem to make a difference. In either case, we recapture with our Knight and then King; otherwise, again, once the Bishop leaves c1, Black is free to even up the material after all with ...Rxb2.) 15...Rb3 and here is our position:
  
  
  White to play
  
  Do we really want to go here? Yes, we still have our pawn advantage for the moment, but our pieces are awfully tangled up, and our central pawns are exposed and vulnerable.
  
  One Black threat in this position is ...Bb5/f5 followed by ...Rd3 and ...Rxd4.
  
  Kc2 doesn't seem like an especially helpful move for us because of ...Ba4.
  
  Barring further analysis this should probably be considered the main line, although 13. Ke2 may actually be more promising (see below).
  + Show Spoiler [further analysis] +
  For some further analysis on this position, see the following posts: 1, 2, 3. The upshot of those is that two strategies were suggested for White to disentangle his position + Show Spoiler [strategies] +

  1) Extricate the a1 Rook by pushing the a-pawn and exiting via the a-file.
  2) Maneuver the King to a2 via c2 and b1; with the King thus guarding b2, play the Bishop to e3.

  However thus far, no way was found to make either strategy work in practical terms, without losing our material advantage at the least. (It's worth keeping in mind that all of the analysis on 11. Qxc6 (and 11. Qxa7, for that matter) has been predicated on the idea that we can gain and hold to a pawn advantage. If we gave up the idea of trying to maintain the lead of a pawn, then all of these lines would need to be reassessed from the beginning.
  
  
• 13. Ke2?!: I haven't much looked into this line--it certainly looks pretty desperate at a glance, and Black has moves like 14. ...Bb5+ and 14...Bg4 at his disposal, but perhaps this line is worth investigating.
  
  The method to the madness here is that this is the only move that immediately relieves the pin on the d2 Knight while still defending both f2 and d2.

+ Show Spoiler [Other possible 13th moves] +

Here it's harder to give a single main line, as this is a relatively less forcing move. Instead, here are Black's plausible alternatives along with possible White responses:

• 11...Bxd2+ 12. Nxd2 (takes pressure off us without taking any pressure off Black. Doesn't seem to be an especially good move for Black in this situation.)
  
• 11...Nxd2? QxR (extensively analyzed here: seems to be winning for us.)
  
• 11...Rb7 (defending the Rook and forcing us to move the Queen) 12. Qa8 (forestalling most of Black's attacking options for at least a move and possibly two, depending on what Black responds.)
  
• 11...Bb7 looks like one of Black's weaker responses, as it threatens nothing immediate, and blocks the critical b-file. This gives us the chance to play 12. 0-0, and we ought to be fine.
  
• 11...Be6, Bf5, and Bg4 seem like solid Black moves: answering our threat to the Rook while developing a piece. Bg4 in particular ratchets up the pressure on our position in general, and threatens among other things to double our f-pawns, weakening our pawn structure and our Kingside.
  
  On the other hand, one positive characteristic (for us) that these moves share is that they commit Black's light-squared Bishop to one side of the board, reducing the things that we have to worry about. In particular, ...Ba6 is no longer a threat, and ...Bd7 can no longer be played without loss of tempo.
  
  In the case of all these moves (but not 11...Bd7), a possible response for us is 12. Qa4 (threatening Black's c6 pawn) 12...Qd7 (defending with the Queen rather than the Bishop to avoid incurring a loss of tempo) 13. Qc2 or Qd1 (depending on where Black's light-squared Bishop is). The extra defender at home can be a big help in holding together our position.
  
  Black's ability to ply his Bishop between f5 and g4, between them bearing down on all of the useful squares our Queen might occupy is certainly worrisome in this line, but after, e.g., 11. Qxa7 Bg4 12. Qa4 Qd7 13. Qc2 Bf5 14. Qd1 Bg4 15. h3, we may be able to escape with no more than doubled f-pawns, while continuing to hold our pawn lead.
  + Show Spoiler [more analysis on this line] +
  In one position that Black can force in this line
  

  
  Black to play

  
  EvilNalu has shown that Black will be able to regain the pawn and have a stronger position in the endgame. Therefore it seems that this whole line needs to be reevaluated.
  
  This line could definitely benefit from further attention, both to double-check it to be sure it's safe for us, and to find improvements--12. Qa4 or 13. Qc2/Qd1 may not be our best approach.
  
• 13...Bd7, Be6, and Bf5 (yes, I know there's some overlap with the last list) seem like solid Black moves: answering our threat to the Rook while developing a piece. Bd7 in particular preemptively defends the c6 pawn, ruling out 12. Qa4 as a useful possibility.
  
  In the case of all these moves (but not 11...Bg4), possible responses for us include the two candidate responses in the 11. Qxc6 line (though here they come a move earlier because we haven't spent a move trading Queens): 12. a3 and 12. Ke2?!. (This doesn't mean that this line is equivalent to the 11. Qxc6 line: as usual, in any given position, having Queens on the board means that we have more options--something that's quite important to us considering that most of the rest of our pieces are on lockdown.)
  
• 11...Rb6 or Rb5. Here again, 12. Qa4 seems like a reasonable response, slowing Black by issuing a counter-threat to his c6 pawn.
  + Show Spoiler [further analysis] +
  See this post by EvilNalu, suggesting a particular continuation as strong for Black, and this response by qrs (me).
  
  Of the two Black moves, ...Rb6 seems the stronger, as it allows for the possibility of ...Ba6

Most of the above analysis could do with double-checking and/or deepening.

Some general points:

- Many of the issues we face in these lines are similar to the ones we face after 11. Qxc6, with most of our men locked up for one reason or another. A key difference is that our Queen (as well as Black's is still on the board). This matters, because the Queen is one of the few pieces that we are relatively free to move here: thus having it on the board significantly increases our options.

- One recurring theme here is that in many lines, playing 0-0 allows Black to recapture the pawn by playing ...Bxd2 and Nxd2 in some order (pulling our Bishop away from c1) followed by ...Rxb2.

- In some lines we may be able to gain some time by playing Qa4, extricating the Queen while threatening Black's c6 pawn.

- Another move that may be useful in several lines is b3, securing our b-pawn from Black's Rook and opening a diagonal for our dark-squared Bishop. On the other hand, we need to be very careful before relinquishing control of c3. One threat to watch out for in particular after playing b3 is ...Bc3, which often wins the exchange, as in the case of the 11. Qxc6 line.

- A counter-intuitive move that may be worth considering in some lines, here as in the 11. Qxc6 line is Ke2?!, relieving the pin on our d2 Knight.

- The bottom line is that 11. Qxa7 is much less forcing than 11. Qxc6, and therefore it's harder to predict what it will lead to. Speaking generally, it seems to keep the Queens on the board and allow a number of possibilities on both sides. More analysis on this move would certainly be useful.

11...B/Nxd2 12. B/Nxd2 N/Bxd2 13. N/Bxd2 Rxb2 (Here Black is the first to win the pawn, but we ought to be able to win at least one of his back.).

This looks relatively safe in the short term, but it abandons our material advantage before it starts, and it looks to give Black equality at the least.If you don't care to try to hold on to a material advantage, it's worth considering, although it's worth pointing out that if you don't care to try to hold on to a material advantage, then that opens up more possibilities in the 11. Qxc6 and 11. Qxa7 lines as well.

If we were to grab a pawn, might as well be the c6 pawn with check.

whether we get to say the word "check"

Qxc6+ will force a queen trade, which I don't think we want to do at this moment. (I'm not very excited about our position and trading down will only lead to bad position end game)

Regarding your edit, I just caught my mistake and I'll edit to fix it. I meant to say we will regain a pawn back with more favorable position and the queens still on the board. Sorry if I meant we will be up a pawn. I meant we will regain our pawn, I'll go edit that now.

Also yes, there are many differences between the Qc6+ and Qxa7 lines. I never said that the only difference is that one is with check. What I meant is that the Qxc6+ line is more forcing as it makes black respond a certain way (because he is in check).

Someday we'll castle, I'm sure of it. <3

OK. I edited the second thing back out, now that you've explained it was a misunderstanding.

About "forcing" vs. "non-forcing", I'd say that a forcing line is only good for us if it's actually a good line for us. After analyzing Qc6+, I don't think that's the case there. That's why I think summing up a key decision like this one with "might as well go with the forcing line" oversimplifies matters--we should go with the better line (as far as we can tell), whether it's forcing or has many branches. That includes 11. 0-0 as well, of course, but I see that one as more of a play-it-safe line: relatively low risk of turning out to be a blunder, but also lower potential to reward us with an advantage.

I agree with you qrs, we should try to play the best line, forcing or not. I'll admit what I said does oversimplifies matters and is not good for key moves like these. I'll be more aware of my words in the future.

First off, in the rook ending where you asked how black evens material:
[center]
Black to play
It's actually pretty simple - he plays 18...Ra8 and if white moves the a pawn then Rb3. For example, 18...Ra8 19. a4 Rb3+ 20 Kf4/d2/e2 Ra4. I hope you can see how awkward it is getting for white here. The a pawn is doomed and the d pawn is weak. The h pawn is also isolated and the f pawns are doubled with no prospects.

In the line: 11. Qxa7 Rb6 12. Qa4 Ba6 13. a3 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Qh4 15. Nxe4 Qxe4+ 16. Be3 Qxg2 17. O-O-O I think black has a major improvement: 16...Qd3 17 Qd1[forced] Rxb2. Maybe white can draw here but winning is certainly a pipe dream - note that white can't take tactical advantage of 18. Qxd3 Bxd3 19. 0-0-0 because black has 19...Rc2+ 20.Kb1 Rd2+ and draw looks likely.

However, I think you are right that 14.Bxd2 may be stronger for white.

That being said, 13...Be7 is a possible improvement for black. 14. Nxe4 appears to turn against white after 14...dxe4 15. Nd2 Bb5, when black will next play Qxd4. This means white's pieces will be tied up for a while. I'm not sure I can come up with any specific line where black wins but you can't analyze everything and at some point have to go by a gut feel/evaluation. And I think here black has all the play, and the extra pawn that you are so fond of is not really worth much - white's a+b pawns in a position where black has both files open will not stand forever - it's sort of like the Benko gambit where you know the pressure you get on the open files means the pawns will not amount to anything even in the long run.

Anywho, it looks like neither of our moves will be chosen so I guess I'll start analyzing Qxc6 (blech).

You're right. I shouldn't have missed that. For now I'm going to call this an unclear endgame--can't our advanced pawns be an advantage on our side?--but definitely not one where we're clearly ahead, and unless I can find an improvement, you do seem to have shown that we can't keep the pawn even after 11. Qxa7. I'll have to look into this further.

I missed that as well. However, as you say, 14. Bxd2 may obviate this particular line.
Here I think my move would be the more or less thematic 14. Qc2, adding to our defense in general and making Nxe4 a threat in particular. At a glance, I like the look of White here.

Well, I spent quite a bit of time on that, so maybe my analysis can give you a leg up. There's still time for our moves to catch up, though--don't you think?--although I admit I've been a bit disappointed at how many people vote with just a quick glance at the position, without paying much attention to the analysis. You're one of the few people who actually addressed it. I wonder where jdseemoreglass is these days...

Meanwhile, you've given me what to think about as far as 11. Qxa7 goes. At the moment, I'm still OK with how we're looking in your ...Rb6 line, but the ...Bg4 line clearly needs a little more work.

11. Qxa7 Bg4

11. Qxa7 Bg4 12. 0-0
Of course, this is the nice safe consolidating move that we've been dying to play all along--and that you're voting for--but so long as we were hoping to keep our pawn, we've been unable to play it--or so we'd assumed. Take a closer look, though:
12...B/Nxd2 13. Nxd2 N/Bxd2 14. Bxd2 Rxb2: this is the series of moves that we've been afraid of (unless we're willing to give back the pawn). However, 15. Ba5 bears down on c7, and unless I'm mistaken, we'll just win the pawn right back--and this time with what looks like a much more solid position.
Position after 15. Ba5

Yeah, I had analyzed all these lines (sorry for holding back, too much work to type them all out, especially when they likely will never be played anyway) and settled on 12.0-0 as white's best move. However, I think black can simply reply 12...0-0 and he has a great game. I think 13. Nxe4 turns out well for black after 13...dxe4 14. Nd2 Ra8 15. Qb7 Qxd4, so white has to play something like 13. Qa4 and black can play c5, removing his doubled pawns and securing a potentially troublesome passed d pawn (and white's e pawn may be in danger in some lines).

You probably still think white is good here (extra pawn) but I really think that because of the a+b pawns combined with open files for black, the extra pawn does not confer any advantage in the long run.

When we retreat, we will be able to put pressure on his forward knight, which will also carry forward once we clear that with what I want to do after we do Qc2. I want to do Nxe4 after. Wouldn't that win us another pawn? It looks like it would from my perspective. Once we clear that up, we will have a good angle on the h-pawn with our Queen.

After 11. Qxc6 Qd7, 12. Qc2 is very, very problematic. My summary a few posts up links to a post that talks about it. Basically, Black plays 12...Ba6 locking us down completely and threatening the devastating 13...Qb5, among other things.

We can't play Nxe4 because our Knight is pinned, and after 12...Ba6, it will stay that way forever.

I'm not at a chessboard but I had a look at this last night. After 11.Qxc6 Qd7 12.Qc2? then black can play 12...Ba6! and we have a whole bunch of problems. One possible continuation could be 13.a3 Qb5! (threatening mate in 1) 14.Qd1 and black has so much pressure against our king that it is probably winning and we are in a position where we have no good moves.

I think that if we play 11.Qxc6 Qd7 then 12.Qxd7 is pretty much forced