EPTqrs convinced me. I'm changing my vote to 11. Qxa7 and I suggest you all do the same. For reading, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=247015¤tpage=70#1400
TL Chess Match 4 - Page 71
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
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RAGEMOAR The Pope
United States216 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:13 hp.Shell wrote: Heh, this is kind of funny: every time I convince someone in one direction, I change my mind again. I found another move for Black which seems like it might give us problems after all (I edited my last post with it). Still looking into it: I'll update with the details when I'm done looking at it.qrs convinced me. I'm changing my vote to 11. Qxa7 and I suggest you all do the same. For reading, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=247015¤tpage=70#1400 | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
we take the bishop (no Rb8) instead of c6. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:22 hp.Shell wrote: It's hard to say what it is, but I don't think that it's really similar to that line. There are many more tactical complications here. I haven't managed to reach a firm conclusion one way or the other, but the line is interesting, and I think it's definitely worth looking into.Ah, so it was similar to the line where + Show Spoiler + we take the bishop (no Rb8) instead of c6. At this point, I think it's worth my doing a write-up on 11. Qxa7. Here goes: Qxa7 + Show Spoiler + If we play this move, our most immediate threat is Qxb8. Meanwhile, Black's threats, in general, include ...Rxb2 and ...Qg5. Obviously, these do not apply in all situations, but they are general themes to keep in mind. Considering that we are threatening his Rook, Black has at least two responses worth looking at:
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:18 RAGEMOAR The Pope wrote: This sort of post is not helpful at all. I don't think it's clear at all that Qxc6 is the best move. Unlike you, I'm posting analysis/reasoning to support my position.QxC6, clearly the best move | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What's wrong with black simply playing a normal developing move, such as Bf5, Bd7, Bg4. He develops a piece, defends his rook, and can safely castle or play something like c5 soon... We are up a pawn still, but our queen is in a poor position and might have to relocate with multiple moves such as Qa4, Qc2, etc. In exchange for the pawn black has slightly better development, an open file for his rook, and the two bishops. | ||
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wizard944
194 Posts
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
The more I look at either of the lines taking a pawn with our Queen, the less I like either of them. Black inevitably takes back our b2 pawn, unless we move our king out of position so that our bishop can defend that b2 pawn. If we don't, the material advantage is lost, and he is much more developed - especially following a queen trade. I think we should seriously consider 0-0. The same lines are going to follow as if we were aggressive with our queen, but we are going to be in much better position with our king. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:25 jdseemoreglass wrote: You're right, those moves are worth looking at as well, and there might be others as well + Show Spoiler [e.g.] +qrs: you say black only has two options worth looking at... + Show Spoiler + What's wrong with black simply playing a normal developing move, such as Bf5, Bd7, Bg4. He develops a piece, defends his rook, and can safely castle or play something like c5 soon... We are up a pawn still, but our queen is in a poor position and might have to relocate with multiple moves such as Qa4, Qc2, etc. In exchange for the pawn black has slightly better development, an open file for his rook, and the two bishops. 11...Rb6 I really meant that Black has two options that demand immediate analysis (especially the second) because of all the tactical complications involved. I've edited my post to say "at least two options". The lines that you suggest, I think, are a little more relaxed for us, for the primary reason that + Show Spoiler + in these lines, Black is no longer threatening to stop us from castling with moves like ...Ba6. One move that may be promising for us after the moves you suggest (except in the 11...Bd7 line) is 12. Qa4, moving our Queen back out and threatening the c6 pawn again--a threat that's a bit stronger since we're already one pawn up. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:32 Mash2 wrote: Inevitably? Did you look at the first couple of lines in my long post on 11. Qxa7? It may be debatable whether those lines are safe to go into, but the move you talk about is not inevitable.Black inevitably+ Show Spoiler + ...takes back our b2 pawn, unless we move our king out of position so that our bishop can defend that b2 pawn. If we don't, the material advantage is lost, and he is much more developed - especially following a queen trade. I think we should seriously consider 0-0. The same lines are going to follow as if we were aggressive with our queen, but we are going to be in much better position with our king. As for your suggested alternative, it may be safer than some of the lines we're considering, but I don't see how it does what you want it to do. At the very least, Black can play the same old + Show Spoiler + ...Bxd2, Nxd2, Rxb2 I'm not saying that the move is unplayable, but playing it seems to me like committing halfway, then getting nervous and pulling out. If we are so afraid to chase material, then we shouldn't have gone into this line in the first place. | ||
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:47 qrs wrote: Inevitably? Did you look at the first couple of lines in my long post on 11. Qxa7? It may be debatable whether those lines are safe to go into, but the move you talk about is not inevitable. As for your suggested alternative, it may be safer than some of the lines we're considering, but I don't see how it does what you want it to do. At the very least, Black can play the same old + Show Spoiler + ...Bxd2, Nxd2, Rxb2 I'm not saying that the move is unplayable, but playing it seems to me like committing halfway, then getting nervous and pulling out. If we are so afraid to chase material, then we shouldn't have gone into this line in the first place. + Show Spoiler + Yea, but if black does play the same old line of ...Bxd2, Nxd2, Rxb2 then we have the ability to take his a7 pawn or his c6 pawn evening the material advantage. Only in this line, we have our king castled. I dunno, I'm probably missing something as I don't doubt your chess knowledge is superior to mine. I was just trying to get the 0-0 move considered and discussed. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GrLa9.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oRKsV.jpg)  | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:55 Mash2 wrote: Don't worry about whose chess knowledge is superior. We're all just amateurs here. I've made mistakes in my analysis before. IMO, it doesn't matter which of us would beat the other in a 1v1: as long as we read each other's posts and respond based on the chess, not the person, we'll be stronger as a team.+ Show Spoiler + Yea, but if black does play the same old line of ...Bxd2, Nxd2, Rxb2 then we have the ability to take his a7 pawn or his c6 pawn evening the material advantage. Only in this line, we have our king castled. I dunno, I'm probably missing something as I don't doubt your chess knowledge is superior to mine. I was just trying to get the 0-0 move considered and discussed. In this case, as I said, I don't think that your line isn't playable or that it gives Black a material advantage. It certainly might be worth looking into. I just want to emphasize that the choice here isn't clear at all. Qxc6 has issues of its own if we want to hold on to our material. For example, + Show Spoiler + we won't be able to castle, and we will need to take a couple of moves to untangle our pieces as Black develops. In my opinion, the most critical line to evaluate is the following (pasted from my long post on 11. Qxa7, above.) (edited 6:32 KST) + Show Spoiler + 11...Nxd2: This one kicks off the fireworks! At this point, Black has just captured a piece, so obviously we have to capture back one way or another. I see two or three options: 12. QxR: The game gets even wilder. Black responds 12...NxN++. Although both Black's Knight and his Bishop are en prise, double check means we can't capture either. 13. Kf1 and 13. Ke1 lose instantly to 13...Ba3+, winning our Queen. Therefore, our only move at this point is 13. Kd1. At this point, material so far is technically even (Rook + pawn for Knight + Bishop), but our King is in a precarious position. On the other hand, two of Black's pieces are en prise, so he doesn't have the time to sit back and consolidate with impunity, for instance with ...0-0 or ...NxP. | ||
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Soluhwin
United States1287 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
...NxN 12. QxR The most recent version of my analysis of 11. Qxa7 is here. Black still has a number of other plausible responses to 11. Qxa7, but none of them seem as threatening. At this point, my vote is for 11. Qxa7. Here's the main reason I prefer it to 11. Qxc6: + Show Spoiler + (edited) It seems to allow us more chances to consolidate our position while keeping our pawn. I'm not saying that one move is clearly better than the other, but I do think that all of us should at least keep an open mind to both before finalizing the decision for one of them. I'm going to take a look at jdseemoreglass's analysis of 11. Qxc6 now. Maybe I'll try to post a summary afterwards. | ||
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On September 21 2011 06:51 qrs wrote: OK, after spending some time looking at the scary-looking tactical line following 11. Qxa7 + Show Spoiler + ...NxN 12. QxR The most recent version of my analysis of 11. Qxa7 is here. Black still has a number of other plausible responses to 11. Qxa7, but none of them seem as threatening. At this point, my vote is for 11. Qxa7. Here's the main reason I prefer it to 11. Qxc6: + Show Spoiler + It allows us to castle and consolidate our position while keeping our pawn. I'm not saying that one move is clearly better than the other, but I do think that all of us should at least keep an open mind to both before finalizing the decision for one of them. I'm going to take a look at jdseemoreglass's analysis of 11. Qxc6 now. Maybe I'll try to post a summary afterwards. Good enough for me. I'm officially changing my vote from Qxc6 to Qxa7 | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
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keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
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