Take it and trade it
TL Chess Match 4 - Page 70
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EnderSword
Canada669 Posts
Take it and trade it | ||
hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
On September 20 2011 20:24 qrs wrote: Why is it so definite that we don't want to + Show Spoiler + retreat with 12. Qc2? Yes, Black can prevent us with castling Kingside with 12...Bh3, but he can do the same with ...Bb5 after we trade Queens. + Show Spoiler + 12. Qc2 just feels super defensive for only taking a pawn. Imagine you're in a gunfight with someone, you shoot at them once and it nicks them in the upper arm. Then they lob a grenade at you. That's what's happening in this game right now. Edit: off topic, the active users caught my eye ![]() | ||
Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
I like black pawns and I cannot lie. | ||
chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The best move in this position, I don't see a better move. The only thing I like about this series of moves if we gets to speed up the game, lol | ||
Mash2
United States132 Posts
If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook? | ||
Ikari
United States176 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Lot of trading coming up... | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Trading queens after this capture is probably the best follow up, but it would probably be more entertaining and exciting to keep queens on the board as long as possible. I'm gonna have to analyze things down the line to see which I prefer, but I'm too lazy right now ![]() | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 20 2011 22:36 Mash2 wrote: hp.Shell already mostly addressed this on the previous page. + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + If we Qxc6+, we are doing so with the intention of trading after, correct? What about Qxa7, what would be the negatives of taking a different pawn and applying pressure to his rook? If we keep the Bishop on c1 to protect the b2 pawn and instead recapture on d2 with first our Knight and then our King, Black still probably gets the pawn back (and a generally dominating position) with ...Qg5+. edit 2: after looking at this move more carefully, I'm no longer sure that it's bad. I changed my vote below. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
11. Qxc6+: 10 (Raysalis, qrs, Bill Murray, hp.Shell, shackes, EnderSword, Chezus, chesshaha, Ikari, jdseemoreglass) ![]() 11. Qxc6+ is looking certain to be our move at this point. If Black plays 11...Qd7, we have essentially two options: 12. QxQ and 12. Qc2. From people's comments, it seems like there's a developing consensus that + Show Spoiler + 12. QxQ jdseemoreglass says he intends to analyze both moves, which sounds like the prudent thing to do. I understand that some may not have time to do extended analysis, but at the least, if you're going to say that you think one move is best, please come up with some kind of reasoning besides a gut feeling. Otherwise, we could easily find ourselves riding a bandwagon with no driver. | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous... ![]() + Show Spoiler + After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5. 1) 11. ... Qb7. This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6 ![]() We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier: 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3 ![]() Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1 ![]() I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage. 2) 11. ... Bd7. This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board. ![]() 3) 11. ... Kf8?! This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place. 11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O ![]() | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Rb8 was a solid response. After Qxc6, he will 99% likely play Qd7. At that point I suggest we trade queens, giving us a slightly advantageous game. If he plays Bd7, we get another pawn+attack his knight. If he moves his king, we messed up his castle. Either way, we have a little advantage. | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9151 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 00:59 jdseemoreglass wrote: OK, this makes sense. I'm on board with the general consensus now that if 11....Qd7 we have no choice but to play + Show Spoiler +Some more analysis. Things are getting interesting, and dangerous... ![]() + Show Spoiler + After Qxc6+, assuming that's what we decide, there are 3 possible responses from Ng5. 1) 11. ... Qb7. This is probably the best move. Here, we almost certainly have to trade queens. I wanted to keep queens on the board, but we simply can't allow black to play Ba6. For example, 12. Qc2? Ba6, and our king is trapped in the middle, our knight is pinned, and we are in terrible shape. Here black has deadly threats, such as Qb5 and Qg4. We are simply losing here. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qc2? Ba6 ![]() We have no choice really but to play 12. Qxb7+. Here black also has an interesting option... The simple recapture Bxd7 looks most obvious, which could lead to the example position I described earlier: 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Bxd7 13. a3 ![]() Or, black could even play Kxd7. This would connect the rooks and begins to activate the king now that queens are off the board. Here black would have the intention of playing Ba6. The threat of keeping our king in the center isn't so bad here with queens off the board. Trying to castle right away would lead to 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1, moving into another pin, because Rd1 could be met with Be2, Re1, Bxf3, and we are in serious trouble. 11. Qxc6+ Qd7 12. Qxd7+ Kxd7 13. O-O Ba6 14. Re1 ![]() I think a better move would be 13. a3, which is very similar to the line and image posted above. No matter how black responds now, we will be able to exchange a piece and remove the knight from e4. The more we simplify the position a pawn ahead, the more we can solidify our slight advantage. 2) 11. ... Bd7. This move looks bad at first glance, because it simply loses a central pawn, but the follow-up seems at least playable to me. Black can win a pawn back with: 12. Qxd5 Nxd2 13. Bxd2 Bxd2+ 14. Nxd2 Rxb2. The resulting position still looks better for white. We are up a pawn, have stronger control of the center, and black's pawn structure is very weak. Perhaps the only advantage black has is the bishop on an open board. ![]() 3) 11. ... Kf8?! This is probably the most interesing move here... With it, black prevents the trade of queen's and goes for a dynamic, attacking game. The black king looks less secure, but the dark-squared bishop is currently defending the diagonal well. By keeping the rook on h8, black is threatening a king-side attack by eventually playing h5 to try and bust open the king-side. By keeping the queen on the c6 square, black is also threatening a rook shift with tempo, for example 12. O-O Rb6 13. Qc2 Rg6. However, he probably has to develop the bishop first because I don't see a good way for him to respond to Qa8, pinning the bishop and holding the black queen in place. 11. Qxc6+ Kf8 12. O-O ![]() 12. QxQ For what it's worth, when I questioned that earlier, I had done no analysis at all: I had only glanced at the board and noted that Black had our pieces awfully entangled, and that the way to disentangle them was probably + Show Spoiler + a3 My questioning the move wasn't meant to say, "I think the other one is better", but more as a general thing: while I think it's fine to vote based on your gut feeling of which move is best, I don't think you should advocate a move unless you're prepared to justify that feeling by analysis and/or explanation. | ||
Malli
Germany138 Posts
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On September 21 2011 00:40 qrs wrote: hp.Shell already mostly addressed this on the previous page. + Show Spoiler + If we keep the Bishop on c1 to protect the b2 pawn and instead recapture on d2 with first our Knight and then our King, Black still gets the pawn back (and a generally dominating position) with ...Qg5+. ahh ok, in that case Qxc6+ | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
11. Qxa7 (threatens the Rook, so Black can't just play the whole sequence he wants to without first defending it). 11...Rb7 (the move I originally counted on: Black defends the Rook with tempo). 12. Qa8 (the move I hadn't paid attention to: White takes the Queen out of danger while pinning down a bunch of Black's pieces: in particular, the Queen has to stay home to defend the Bishop. This buys an extra move for us, as 12...Qg5+ is no longer a good option for Black. Furthermore, it pins Black's Rook to his c6 pawn, so that if we play 12. Bxd2 Rxb2, we can respond with 13. Qxc6+ and stay a pawn ahead. hp.Shell actually alluded to this in his original post, but I misunderstood what he meant.) | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
In particular, it may allow us to keep the pawn and still castle, which I'm don't think we can do in the 11. Qxc6+ line. Castling is a very useful move here if we can play it: it takes a lot of the pressure off us. The "main line" I've been looking at is + Show Spoiler [line] + 11. Qxa7 Rb2 12. Qa8 It's certainly possible that I've overlooked something, and that this move is a mistake, but for the moment, I'm changing my vote to Qxa7. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
Move 11 Votes 11. Qxc6+: 13 (Raysalis, 11. Qxa7: 1 (qrs) ![]() The emerging consensus is for 11. Qxc6, but can anyone say why 11. Qxa7 is worse? I thought it was worse myself, at first, but when I looked at it more carefully, I wasn't able to find a good reason to say that. It might even be better. See my post above. My analysis could certainly be mistaken, but in that case someone should come forward to refute it. | ||
hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
On September 21 2011 03:29 qrs wrote: After spending a little more time looking at the possibility of 11. Qxa7, I'm no longer sure that it's clearly worse than 11. Qxc6. It has certain advantages. + Show Spoiler [advantages] + In particular, it may allow us to keep the pawn and still castle, which I'm don't think we can do in the 11. Qxc6+ line. Castling is a very useful move here if we can play it: it takes a lot of the pressure off us. The "main line" I've been looking at is + Show Spoiler [line] + 11. Qxa7 Rb2 12. Qa8 It's certainly possible that I've overlooked something, and that this move is a mistake, but for the moment, I'm changing my vote to Qxa7. + Show Spoiler + 11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 Nxd2 13. Nxd2 Rxb2 This loses our one-pawn advantage we gain with Qxc6+ and also opens up the opportunity for 14. ...Qg5 putting lots of pressure on us and threatening 15 ...Qxd2# (well, it might as well be # in that case.) Or maybe 11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 R | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On September 21 2011 03:49 hp.Shell wrote: You should put your lines in spoilers so Ng5 can't read them.+ Show Spoiler + 11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Bxd2 Nxd2 13. Nxd2 Rxb2 This loses our one-pawn advantage we gain with Qxc6+ and also opens up the opportunity for 14. ...Qg5 putting lots of pressure on us and threatening 15 ...Qxd2# (well, it might as well be # in that case.) In your line, first of all, what happens if we just play + Show Spoiler [this?] + 13. QxR edit, since you edited your post to add another line: I agree that your second line is better for Black (which is why I said "first of all"), but suppose we play + Show Spoiler + 11. Qxa7 Bxd2+ 12. Nxd2 (not 12. Bxd2). Now we're back to the old situation: if Black plays 12...Nxd2 then we can take his rook. edit 2: I think I may have found the problem with this line: + Show Spoiler + 11. Qxa7 Nxd2! If 12. QxR, then 12...NxN++! (double check, not checkmate) seems to create grave problems for us. | ||
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