EPT[D] [G] Zerg FAQ - Page 5
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drooL
United Kingdom2108 Posts
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Bellygareth
France512 Posts
In short: keep your money low still applies. The only time I stockpile is when I wait for a specific tech building to finish and I know I have enough money and supply to build the new units. Now pros will show better insight than that I'm sure  | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
1. When seeing your opponent has forge fast expanded and is Chronoboosting Probes from both nexi should you try to match him in worker count or go all in with roaches, or sacrifise some econ to put pressure on him with a few units? 2. Whenever A puts early pressure on me with 4 gate he makes me build units and sacrifice economy, when he transitions into Collosus I never get my curroptors out in time due to having to mass an army and not getting gas in time at expo... after the initial pressure from toss should I all in counter attack or? 3. You scout a 4 gate you know its coming, how many gas gisyers should I have? and When should i transition into lair? | ||
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BleaK_
Norway593 Posts
My question: Against 6 gate into robo - Colossus, I find myself maxed with roach/hydra (and have spire up, for scouting colossi), and I feel I have to "sacrifice" some of the roach/Hydra to get corrupters out. Do I stop producing Hydras at a moment to get out corrupters? Or should I keep "sacrificing" units to keep the gateway units low? | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 17:04 nesf wrote: In ZvP, has the roach range upgrade made Roach/Hydra more viable than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs Colossi? Can we use Roaches similar to Marauders to run in and snipe Colossi and gain the advantage of a unit that is still useful after the Colossi have fallen versus the Corruptor? In ZvT, is feinting muta with 6-10 and then transitioning into Baneling/Infestor/Roach worth considering over more standard muta ball herding play? In ZvP Roach / Hydra / Ling is a viable composition. Its all going to depend on the ammount of collosi and the ammount of stalkers. If they have a very stalker / collosi heavy army hydra / roach / corrupter is still the way to go. If they have more zealots, or storm I like roach / infestor / hydra. Basically what I'm trying to say is if you can read your opponent and hes spending ALOT of money on collosi then you should get corruptors regardless. ZvT is a very interesting match up right now. Baneling / Infestor / Roach is a very strong combo especially with those few mutalisks. If you add in zerglings you have a interesting triple threat that can deal with tanks as well as bio balls. Muta / Ling forcing them into marine / tank play and then going infestor roach can be very strong. So yes its worth considering. @Genocide There are several ways to deal with mass thors. If its a very early push then the best way to deal with a marine / thor (only!) push would have to be Baneling / Roach / Ling. If you have time to get into an end game, perhaps think about adding in some ultras, and / or infestors. Its all about massing though. You can't run in a straight line against the terran ball, with roaches you'll have to come from at least 2 directions, say the front and a side. You want all your units attacking his, and you want to get a good surround on some units. | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 18:11 osten wrote: I have a problem lately, which is that I get an economical lead, sometimes even three base against one, mostly because I successfully defended an attack he did. I then get tech & upgrades, saturation and concentrate on getting the counter to whatever he is going for. Then suddenly he attacks, I see it in time, I have like 200/200 and more food ready, and it consists of mainly the counter to whatever he makes, and I almost always have him beat in both attack and armor upgrades. Then I die. Because he had some redicilously strong unit such as siege tank or colossus or voidrays etc. Sometimes I outfood him 50 food and he stil a-moves me because his units are so much stronger. So I produce 200 more food while he kills expansion of his choice, but he just steamrolls that too. Then he takes his second base. Ok hehe so maybe I exaggerated but I hope you get my point. I am always going for macro/ 200/ max upgrades/ max production as a goal before I finish him because anything else is dangerous. And it's hard to survive earlygame, but when I get maxxd, his base productions and units are better with 3 less expansions and less upgrades ready. It feels like zerg is useless in the beginning and end. And middle. What to do? Halp And @ LeCaster This is a problem a lot of high level Zergs are having versus strong Protoss and Terran. Terran right now we can deal with end game well with muta / ling / baneling / infestor into Ultralisks or Broodlords. Dealing with protoss end game is a different story. The best way to deal with this is if you know your army of 200/200 is a bad composition versus your opponents army you want to save up both minerals and larva to get the correct composition versus the protoss. You then want to use your army to either A. Destroy his production facilities or B. Kill some of his economy. If you kill some of his army all the better, but its important that you do some damage to his ability to expand and build more units that will counter your new composition. Then while building up your next army you can do things like drops, or more harass with lings. Its by no means easy, but if the protoss then attacks you'll want to defend it with your new army composition asap. Vs. Colosus I recomend Ultralisks / Hydralisks / Infestors (Gas heavy much?) Vs. everything else I think its probably the best idea to get 8-9 Brood Lords and keep units around them to make sure stalkers can't blink under them. Also its very important that you keep your upgrades up, and start them fairly quickly. You want to be at least even with the protoss in upgrades. Hope that helped a little bit, but I know its not easy to deal with a maxed protoss! | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 19:06 MandoRelease wrote: Awesome Thread, here's my question. Early game I never know if I should see my units/buildings in terms of larvae or in term of ressources. In particular when I go 14 hatch. I find there's a 2 minutes window where either going spine crawler or zerglings has a huge impact on the game. Against Terran it is particularly hard for me because if I make 1 spine crawler after seeing a early second rax and he doesn't attack, i find myself thinking i should have made zerglings instead. But then again, I don't know what should be my view on things, larvae or ressources. What are the advantages and downsides of each way of seeing my units ? EDIT : By ressources i mean only minerals and gaz. I know larvae can be considered a ressource as well, but not for the purpose of my question. Very interesting question... I feel that versus Terran early you're going to want to be extra defensive. Whether you do that by zerglings or spinecrawlers is somewhat a question of personal choice. The benefit to zergling is that you'll have an army for later and its more of an offensive unit. The benefit to spinecrawlers is that its stronger against the "Foxer" push and that you can get more drones. The "Safest" way is spinecrawlers, but either way you should get several zerglings to scout the Terran and to help block your ramp and stop hellions from running right on past. Hope that helped.. if it didn't you could ask again! @ dthree The problem with the "Foxer" style is they split up their marines and so the banelings can't hit them all initially. Muta / Ling / Baneling / Infestor is still the way to go. The reason for this is that you can Fungal growth the marines that are up, and just Move the banelings near them and keep them moving, (on a seperate hotkey from your muta / ling ) so you don't lose them all. You'll want your muta / ling to clean up the rest of the army. The reason I love this composition is for its mobility, and ability to stop dropships. I will say this doesn't work so well against Thor, Banshee Marine.... but thats a whole different question! :D | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On November 24 2010 23:21 Phrencys wrote: If you scout an opponent massing an army in his base (ex: MM, zeal/immortals) at which point do you stop droning in order to prepare for his push? Do you build like enough speedlings/crawlers to defend X% of their army then drone up to the point where they move out? Here's how it feels for me ATM: - Waiting till they move out, you risk not having enough stuff when they arrive. - On the other hand if you over-prepare for a push that never comes, or comes much later, you're giving away economy for army that would likely still be inferior to his so you can't use it offensively yet. This is a Hugely situational question. Against Protoss I find it smart to get at least one spinecrawler and to get speed zerglings in a somewhat large number. The reason for this isn't that their good against zealots, but there so you can counter the protoss if he leaves his base with his army. You can then prevent any reinforcements from coming and then go back to your nat and help flank his army.Versus simply a hugely heavy MM push your going to want to consider banelings very early (before lair) if they do it very quickly. (foxer push) I'll generally stop drone production whenever I know that I have a slightly good lead on economy over my opponent. That way when I just completly make army I know that if I stop it , I'm still ahead on economy. Hope that helped! @Nazza Its better economy to get your hatchery first. Its not too huge of a difference, but there is one. There is no solid counter to Thor on your cliff that I know of. There are ways that you can get somewhat even. Getting dropship and taking your 3rd early and if they dropship your cliff, you can dropship their main and just move your drones to your 3rd. (A base without a cliff) I find that their is no really good counter versus this, and that no matter what against a good Terran you will be a little bit behind. @Salami Yea that's pretty much how you kill a 14 Hatchery. | ||
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Bayaz
United Kingdom4 Posts
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On November 24 2010 12:58 Communism wrote: Great thread guys, there is a lot of good information being thrown around, and thanks to all the root players helping out. After reading Catz post It got me thinking about sending drones (3-4) to harass SCVs building the wall and generally mess with a T. What kind of damage do you expect to inflict with this kind of harassment, i mean i can see how it could help, but what exactly is your mission with those drones. Also wondering how you guys actually go about implementing this in game to maximize the advantage you get, such as supply timing to send the drones, number of drones to send or any other insight anyones got. many things are acomplished, the follow up is not super aggressive, but he has to prepare for it. with micro as 4 drones regening ar emuch more effective than 4 scvs, terrans need to pull at least 5 scvs that are NOT mining to deal with the harrass, or battle my drones with 4 (i won't engage anymore than 4) i will usually delay the barracks as well by killing the scv building it. this will delay their orbital command (also delayed when they pull 5 scvs) consider also the fact that terrans have to use their scvs for building so when they pull 5+ plus 1 or 2 building stuff they barely have anything on their mineral line while im mining just fine, at the worst case scenario i won't kill anything but he will have to delay his oc by using his scvs to defend as well as changing or losing the scv building the barracks. later oc = later mule which means less income. worst case scenario using my 4 drone rush doesn't seem to set me behind at all where best case scenario (killing 2-3 scvs+) will almost guarantee me a win. Also me being aggressive prevents them from being to aggressive and gives me a safe way out, and ofc great scouting information early on. | ||
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Kiyo
United States1 Post
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Phrencys
Canada270 Posts
On November 25 2010 02:21 Sheth wrote: Versus simply a hugely heavy MM push your going to want to consider banelings very early (before lair) if they do it very quickly. (foxer push) I'll generally stop drone production whenever I know that I have a slightly good lead on economy over my opponent. When you say early banes, do you mean that you go: @100gas Metabolic, @50 gas Nest, @100 Lair while droning up relying on a spine+speedlings? That sounds kind of hard to support with an early economy. About knowing you got a good lead on your opponent's economy: how can you figure it out? Often I think I'm doing fine but then realize that I spend more larvaes/ressources on units that I should've and suddenly my opponent flies a CC to his nat and Maynards half of his SCVs. | ||
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ShadowWolf
United States197 Posts
I'm 0 - lifetime against that 6 gate attack that cuts probes in the 30s and comes with stalker/sentry off 2 base. My gut feeling is that Burrowed Roach with Ling support is the way to go, but I'm having troubles with either my Roach count being too low or Burrow showing up too late. Major things I think would help is what the optimal time this rush should be hitting me ( around between 8:00 and 8:30 is my current guess ) and how you guys are dealing with getting a sufficient Roach count + Burrow in time for the rush to hit. Are crawlers really helpful here or is it just by-luck that most successful defenses seem to use them? I tried reviewing some replays on various sites, but a lot of Zerg are still losing I guess :-\ I don't have any replays, but hopefully I explained well enough! ( p.s. I watch Catz's stream quite a lot :-D ) | ||
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bellyfrog
New Zealand72 Posts
I had a really long game yesterday which I did win but I was fighting with mass ultra/ling/muta vs huge numbers of marauders with like 15-20 marines to kill my mutas. It was a major pain in the ass. It felt really weird to have such a hard time against him when I was effectively on 3/3 upgrades vs his 1/1. I only really won by starving him so he couldn't take a third, but it was pretty close as he was sniping out my hatcheries with stim marauders pretty regularly. I just wonder what I'm doing wrong in terms of unit mix and how I should go about microing this army. It seems intuitive just to mass ling/bling/muta and burn the marines with the blings but when I was doing that he was sniping and microing the marines pretty effectively against the banelings so he still had a nice chunk of marines to take out my mutas after the blings were gone. That was one confusing game, felt like I had the lead all game and yet still took me 30 min to put him away. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
1) It seems like most players assume zerg can out-macro T and P and hence the popularity of the 14 Hatch or 15 Hatch build. What are situations you wouldnt do this build? 2) Assuming you go 15 Hatch, what are some strong transitions from this to do against T/Z/P? 3) What are some key things I should look out for in regards to keeping macro up? 4) What are some indicators or times when you think its generally safe to drone up? 5) In the early game, to get a good eco start, we wanna drone up as much as possible but obviously you need some units/defense to stop early game attacks. How do you know what to build as 'generic defense'? I know you will probably say, scout and then build counter units. But in the early game, tats quite tough cos i'll send a zergling or two up and they have units at the top ramp to shoot them down quickly. 6) Suggestions on how to manage hatcheries better? If I have 4 hatches across the map, its hard to keep using queens to spawn on them all the time!! Do even the pros manage to keep all the hatches up with max larvae?? Heaps of questions i know but thanks! | ||
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lux27
Germany33 Posts
2) any tipps on baneling micro? 3) when my 1st extra hatch spawns, should i transfer so many drones that each base has a equal number, or do i just take a few? | ||
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Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
On November 25 2010 01:54 BleaK_ wrote: Love this thread! Thank you so much! My question: Against 6 gate into robo - Colossus, I find myself maxed with roach/hydra (and have spire up, for scouting colossi), and I feel I have to "sacrifice" some of the roach/Hydra to get corrupters out. Do I stop producing Hydras at a moment to get out corrupters? Or should I keep "sacrificing" units to keep the gateway units low? You can do either. If you go pure hydra / roach you'll have to sacrifice your army and then get a coorupter heavy army. If you save some larva that might work, but they both have upsides. Its gonna depend how colossus heavy your opponent is going. | ||
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ROOTCatZ
Peru1226 Posts
On November 25 2010 10:09 lux27 wrote: 1) when is the 1st time you chose to spawn a creep tumor instead of inject larvae? 2) any tipps on baneling micro? 3) when my 1st extra hatch spawns, should i transfer so many drones that each base has a equal number, or do i just take a few? 1) whenever, match dependant, I like to either spawn my first creep tumor asap off of the queen on my expo OR get an extra queen and make many many creep tumors and have it all go purple. 2) send banelings on mvoe only so that they won't explode to lings, while you have lings on attack move so that they can snipe lings coming their way to try to pick off banelings. u need 2 banelings to kill a baneling, ofc if there's more than 2 bunched up, sacrificing 2 is worth it to kill over 2, if you feel like you're ahead, trading 2 for 2 works. 3 banelings nessesary to kill a baneling while its morphing, so again, if there's 3+ banelings morphing you can explode 3+ banelings and expect to break even or pull ahead (if there's more than 3 bunched up morphing. 3) I like transfering a few only, your goal is to get saturated on both bases and to lose the minimum amount of mining time, so either you don't transfer any or transfer a few if you have 16 or over in your main. afterwards rally drones to your expansion (if you're already saturated at your main) and so on.\ hope this helps | ||
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Lavitage
United States71 Posts
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djengizz
Netherlands42 Posts
In ZvT or ZvP, when would you decide to go for fast Metabolic Boost (let's say 14 Extractor, 14 Pool, 20-ish expand) instead of going Hatchery before Extractor (let's say 14 Pool 16 Hatch)? Is there still a need for the very fast Metabolic Boost after the Reaper nerf? And as a second question: I saw ROOT.CatZ do a one base tactic on LT vs Terran on close air positions involving a Nydus Worm in combination with Infestor harass from the cliff. He explained the reason to do this one base opening was the possibility for drops on your cliff. If you decide to open 1 base like that what would be the time to expand and be safe from the drops? When going one base on LT would it always involve some early aggression? | ||
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