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On September 07 2012 13:43 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:41 RCMDVA wrote:The new non-farm payroll number coming out in 8 hours is going to have a bigger impact on the election/undecideds than any of the speeches. 8:30 Friday morning : http://www.bls.gov/ces/ I think you are vastly over-estimating the economic suavity of the swing voter base, many will not even acknowledge the numbers release.
Indeed. A lot of people take a look at milestones, like 8% unemployment, and how those milestones are sold to them. Even seemingly noticeable things, like energy and food prices, are responded to through news and not explicit realization of prices or how it affects them. People notice $4.00 gas, the news makes a story about it, and people complain that they've had to cut back on X, Y, and Z to pay for gas, when, in reality, their monthly expenditures varied less than what they would experience on a particularly hot summer month.
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On September 07 2012 13:49 Signet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? No you're no alone, this bogus statistic doesn't help the conversation and probably isn't helpful in achieving the goal of reducing income disparity. The statistic makes it sound like employers are paying women less for doing the same job. In reality, women often do not go into the same jobs as men, there is evidence that women don't work as many hours as men, and women more often than men choose to sacrifice their careers for their family.Especially on the former point (choice of career field), there is probably some improvement that can and should be made... things like how girls are treated and what interests are encouraged for them early in life probably have an impact here. It's both an issue of fairness but also of maximizing efficiency in a global capitalist system... we don't want to have talented young women who we are steering into careers where they won't tap their full potential, because that reduces our national productivity/competitiveness. (edit: links http://www.stlouisfed.org/publications/re/articles/?id=2160http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_gender-gap.html)
Is it evidence that they make that sacrifice, or evidence that the sacrifice is impossed on them? The quick, dirty problem is that women are paid less in the same position as men. The more nuanced problem of our day is the assumption that a woman will have to make that choice (or a woman will always choose to sacrifice career for family).
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On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth?
The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors.
The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it?
Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).
Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).
Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal Pay
The Wage Gap Myth
Women In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than Men
Women between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men.
This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts.
Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home).
Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".
There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs.
TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience.
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On September 07 2012 13:42 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? Anyone with a good forum memory knows that you really don't enjoy discussions of the wage gap lol. You think it is a myth, and many others do as well, but, believe it or not, large numbers of people do not agree with your judgement
It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact. The GOP is the party of bogus math, climate change denial, and the evolution "controversy", and it's pathetic that the Dems are at their level of math.
On September 07 2012 13:42 farvacola wrote:I really don't think many swing voters are going to be too swayed either way in regards to the issue.
That would be my point. The most important women's issue is protecting abortion rights from the Christian Right, so it's sad to see the Dems throwing around bad math like the GOP does.
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On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience.
However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter.
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On September 07 2012 13:36 dvorakftw wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 12:25 MinusPlus wrote:On September 07 2012 12:22 dvorakftw wrote:On September 07 2012 11:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
“You might not be ready for diplomacy with Beijing if you can’t visit the Olympics w/o insulting our closest ally.”
Amazing. It's like he knows no one has any clue about all the things he's done to England over the last three and a half years. Then again, I'm certain he considers an iPod with his speeches the greatest gift of all. You posted this already. They seemed like fairly mild offenses (for the most part) then, too. Also, do you have like a compendium of these links or something? You post a link to something relevant (barely, usually) in almost every post, usually about 2 minutes apart. It's as if you had a direct line to every talking point that's already been brought up, discussed, and debunked here since before the thread started. \ I read a lot and I remember most of what I read. That makes it easy to search and find. And can you explain how correctly noting the problems London had with its Olympics is worse than dissing the Queen and the Prime Minister and Winston?
That sounds like an incredibly useful skill toi have. I'm unfortunate enough to only remember specific words and wording, but I not to key in on titles and headlines -- unless they're titled with made-up words or "foreign" patterns, -- so it takes me a bit longer to find things.
Honestly, I'd prefer not to talk about how Michelle Obama was being so blatantly disrespectful by putting her hand on the Queen, because that isn't interesting to me.
I'd actually much rather talk about education reform, if possible, both because it's something I actually like discussing, and since you posted this earlier:
I thought it was interesting that you claimed this was a reason for conservatives not to talk about education. Care to elaborate a bit more, or give thoughts on an "ideal" system, maybe?
Forgive me for not having paid much attention to Rice's & Jeb Bush's speeches at the RNC, but reading over excerpts from them makes it it seem that they both kindof avoided talking about one of my biggest issues with the system as-is, so I'm curious to see how people with differing views & politics think about it.
(This thread moves too quickly for me, I think I'm already four or five pages behind now. >_<)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors.
well, then this is an interpretative issue. and you'd be in a fairly weak position if you think time worked is purely a matter of choice.
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On September 07 2012 14:07 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience. However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter.
In practice, the act encourages employers to overpay women to reduce the likelihood of a potentially costly lawsuit.
The main issue, though, is that the Dems are deliberately perpetuating a feminist myth, which further plays into the false (not to mention misogynistic) narrative of women as victims rather than equals.
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On September 07 2012 14:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. well, then this is an interpretative issue. and you'd be in a fairly weak position if you think time worked is purely a matter of choice.
Read the entire post instead of just the first paragraph. There are links to articles and studies which address this, especially the Dept. of Labor study.
On top of that, the "wage gap" also ignores factors like occupation, education, and experience. In reality, women recieve equal pay for equal work.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
you seem to know a lot about how women live in a wide swath of social strata.
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On September 07 2012 14:17 oneofthem wrote:
you seem to know a lot about how women live in a wide swath of social strata.
No, but I defer to legitimate scientific sources on any issues involving fact. Similarly, I may not be an expert on climate change, but I defer to the experts who concur that it's happening; same goes for evolution. In the case of the wage gap, the Department of Labor says it doesn't exist, and the empirical literature overwhelmingly backs them up.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
feminists would say that these 'choices' are not really genuine choices etc etc. you can go on forever about this.
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On September 07 2012 14:20 oneofthem wrote:
feminists would say that these 'choices' are not really genuine choices etc etc. you can go on forever about this.
And we have studies which show that they actually are. So the feminists are wrong. To repaste something I posted earlier:
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On September 07 2012 14:15 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:07 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience. However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter. In practice, the act encourages employers to overpay women to reduce the likelihood of a potentially costly lawsuit. The main issue, though, is that the Dems are deliberately perpetuating a feminist myth, which further plays into the false (not to mention misogynistic) narrative of women as victims rather than equals.
I'd think companies would attempt to pay women fairly before they would pay them in excess...
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On September 07 2012 14:24 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:15 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 14:07 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience. However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter. In practice, the act encourages employers to overpay women to reduce the likelihood of a potentially costly lawsuit. The main issue, though, is that the Dems are deliberately perpetuating a feminist myth, which further plays into the false (not to mention misogynistic) narrative of women as victims rather than equals. I'd think companies would attempt to pay women fairly before they would pay them in excess...
All of the research shows they already do:
Women In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than Men.
Female U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: study
Women between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men.
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On September 07 2012 14:26 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:24 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:15 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 14:07 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience. However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter. In practice, the act encourages employers to overpay women to reduce the likelihood of a potentially costly lawsuit. The main issue, though, is that the Dems are deliberately perpetuating a feminist myth, which further plays into the false (not to mention misogynistic) narrative of women as victims rather than equals. I'd think companies would attempt to pay women fairly before they would pay them in excess... All of the research shows they already do.
All of them? They ALL pay women the correct wages? Again, the law is very lightweight in general.
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Sunprince is everything this thread should be. Anyone who disagrees with him needs to go get some actual sources that are relevant. No one cares about your anecdotal evidence or how you feel, we want studies and research.
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On September 07 2012 14:29 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 14:26 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 14:24 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:15 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 14:07 aksfjh wrote:On September 07 2012 14:02 sunprince wrote:On September 07 2012 13:44 oneofthem wrote:On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? do you have compelling research suggesting that it is indeed a myth? The “pay gap” is probably the most widely-cited example of supposed disadvantages faced by women today. It is also totally misleading, as it is only a snapshot of average yearly full-time incomes that does not account for overtime (about 90% male), type of work, or other non-discriminatory, voluntary factors. The US Department of Labor funded a study that proved this and found the pay gap is caused by choices, not discrimination. Women work (44/56)x100=78% as much time as men. Kind of explains the gap by itself doesn't it? Gender pay gap is not what activists claim (Canada).Equal pay statistics are bogus because they don’t compare like with like (UK).Fair Pay Isn’t Always Equal PayThe Wage Gap MythWomen In Tech Make More Money And Land Better Jobs Than MenFemale U.S. corporate directors out-earn men: studyWomen between ages 21 and 30 working full-time make 117% of men's wages.According to the U.S. Census Bureau, single women between 22 and 30 years old earn 8% more than comparable men. This was further supported in the book “Why Men Earn More" by Warren Farrell, who examined 25 career/life choices men and women make (hours, commute times, etc.) that lead to men earning more and women having more balanced lives, and that showed how men in surveys prioritize money while women prioritize flexibility, shorter hours, shorter commutes, less physical risk and other factors conducive to their choice to be primary parents, an option men still largely don’t have. That is why never-married childless women outearn their male counterparts, and female corporate directors now outearn their male counterparts. Farrell also lists dozens of careers, including fields of science, where women outearn men. Women simply have more options than men to be primary parents, and many of them exercise that option rather than work long, stressful hours. That is why 57% of female graduates of Stanford and Harvard left the workforce within 15 years of entry into the workforce. This is an option few men have (try being a single male and telling women on the first date that you want to stay home). Blaming men for women’s choices is unfair. In fact research shows most men have no problem with their wives outearning them. Research also shows most working dads would quit or take a pay cut to spend more time with kids if their spouses could support the family. Not to mention the fact that parents share workloads more when mothers allow men to be primary parents. In reality, career decisions, not sex bias, are at the root of the "wage gap".There is also the myth that women are kept out of certain more lucrative fields by sexism. The truth is that women stay away from math out of their own free choice. Cornell determined that there discrimination is not responsible for the lack of women in science. Business Insider concurs. TL;DR: The 77 cents to a dollar wage gap myth is based on the unadjusted wage gap, which means it does not take into account factors like hours worked, occupation, education, or experience. However, at the same time, the legislation proposed doesn't FORCE unjust equal pay by the same criteria. It gives women the ability to confront employers in a reasonable time frame. Saying the law is unnecessary is really just saying the law is redundant. The cost of implementation is relatively nothing. This would be the equivalent of killing a fly with a fly swatter. In practice, the act encourages employers to overpay women to reduce the likelihood of a potentially costly lawsuit. The main issue, though, is that the Dems are deliberately perpetuating a feminist myth, which further plays into the false (not to mention misogynistic) narrative of women as victims rather than equals. I'd think companies would attempt to pay women fairly before they would pay them in excess... All of the research shows they already do. All of them? They ALL pay women the correct wages?
On average, women are paid more for comparable work. While there might be exceptions, it's clear that wage gap issue is a myth.
Would you argue that we need legislation to ensure that white people aren't discriminated against in pay? That's about how ridiculous this thing is.
On September 07 2012 14:29 aksfjh wrote:Again, the law is very lightweight in general.
I don't disagree particularly strongly here, but the main issue is that the Dems still perpetuate the myth by throwing it around in every other speech.
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On September 07 2012 14:06 sunprince wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 13:42 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 13:37 sunprince wrote:
Am I the only one getting sick and tired of listening to Dems harp on the wage gap myth?
I know they need the woman vote and the support of feminist groups to win the election and all, but do they really think women are gonna run to the GOP if the Dems stop buying into failboat statistics on a single issue? Anyone with a good forum memory knows that you really don't enjoy discussions of the wage gap lol. You think it is a myth, and many others do as well, but, believe it or not, large numbers of people do not agree with your judgement It's not a matter of opinion, it's fact. The GOP is the party of bogus math, climate change denial, and the evolution "controversy", and it's pathetic that the Dems are at their level of math. On September 07 2012 13:42 farvacola wrote:I really don't think many swing voters are going to be too swayed either way in regards to the issue. That would be my point. The most important women's issue is protecting abortion rights from the Christian Right, so it's sad to see the Dems throwing around bad math like the GOP does.
This is not true. The number one women's issue is jobs and economy, just like men's. At some point it would be nice if both parties (and I actually think the Republicans are closer to this) stopped treating women like a special class of citizen that needs to be protected and realize they are multiple issue voters, just like men.
All of the Planned Parenthood/Abortion talk at the DNC was about shoring up the base it was not about bringing in independent women voters. It's why you didn't really see much of it during the 10 o'clock hour during the week.
Here's a link to the most recent poll I could find on the topic.
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