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On December 23 2010 02:05 Aberu wrote:
You are also suggesting they write books about starcraft, and then sell their autographs at events in Las Vegas. I think you are officially the most unrealistic poster in this thread.
That's exactly what I was suggesting. From my post I thought I made it apparent that I admire cheaters like Pete Rose, and that other cheaters should try and emulate him since he is so well respected.
The was no sarcasm whatsoever in my reply, or this one. You are a valued TL member. I hope that you have a great day!
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On December 23 2010 02:12 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:06 zev318 wrote:On December 23 2010 02:05 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split. Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites. It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do. Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more. That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about. Hey murder is the same as trying to make money from a tournament! People do kill for money. Quit trolling, I was calling him out on his slippery-slope fallacy.
At the risk of distracting things... This was not a slippery slope fallacy. He wasn't claiming that doing it in this case would lead to murder being accepted. He was saying that the principle in question when applied to other situations (like rules against murder) would lead to obviously incorrect conclusions. As such, this principle's reliability should be questioned. This is a totally valid logical argument. It has the unfortunate downside of almost never being understood by your audience, but it is entirely logical.
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On December 23 2010 01:41 goldfishs wrote:Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN! 1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it. 2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them. 3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours.
I feel so ashamed by posts like yours. People take stuff for granted so fast.
Trying to loophole a system that is feeding your hobby is so disrespectful to a level that is staggering and clearly shows the immaturity of these kids.
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Are these marches broadcasted? No.
Does that vindicate them from anything? By principle, no.
Was this wrong to do? Probably.
Have their reputations taken a hit? Yes.
Moral of the story?
Be more discreet when you're planning to cheat a system.
Edit: there goes my 800th post...
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Read this thread, I'm not sure what is more surprising -
a) that players with reputations behind them (something to lose) would be so careless about how they conduct themselves,
b) that an admin would be allowed to be an admin if he has close/personal ties to the players, or that an admin would be dumb enough to say yes (first off) to a plan that obviously exploits the setup of a tournament prize payout and goes against its purpose, i.e. to reward the single most consistent winner,
c) that anyone here defends either of these players based on size of tournament or inability to be "matchfixing" due to public participation/viewership/etc.
The truth, if all the facts in this thread are correct (and translations), is that this isn't exactly "matchfixing" in the historical meaning of the word, which usually involves third party gambling or interest in the outcome of a game. It is a concious decision/agreement between two players to exploit a prize system that was setup to give out a 'special' reward to a player that proved hismelf to be a consistent winner over all of his peers 11/18 of the time.
The mere fact that these two players are concerned that a setup like this will not see either of them walk away with the prize unfixed is proof that they don't deserve the grand prize, only a player that can 'earn' the majority of wins derserves it. If I was the tournament organizer or admin I wouldn't allow either of these players to compete after this incident.
Finally, blaming a 'poor' tournament structure for this is just wrong. The point of a strcuture like this is to provide incentive for players to compete in multiple tournaments, and to reward the player that wins an exceptionally high percentage of matches against other players of similar skill. The structure is fine, players should have enough integrity to realize and respect the reason for a setup and play within the rules to attempt to earn the best prize, not find flaws with it and exploit them.
Ultimately, this just supports the idea that the players involved value the prize more than the competition. Because, even if they are friends, as competitive players they should try to prove they are better than one another in any given day/match every given day/match. To do otherwise spits in the face of the spirit of the game.
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No.. The moral of the story is to man up and play the game legit.. Some $1.000 or $2,0000 dollar computer or laptop is not worth the embarrassment or bad publicity you will get within the Starcraft 2 community for attempting to pull off stunts like this.
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On December 23 2010 02:07 Rabbitmaster wrote:
I actually saw this live on sjows stream and im swedish so i understood what they were talking about. Tbh i didnt interpret it as match fixing in any way.
What else is it then? Its pretty much the definition of matchfixing. Its discreditable and disrespectable and should be punished. I'm not saying the tournaments prize system is good, but that does not change the fact that they planned on fixing the matches if they needed too.
Can't believe so many people are ok with this... In the end, would it have been ok for Savior to fix matches if he said that he needed the money because his salary is so low for the number of hours he always has to work for?
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Its a shame to see all the angry, hateful people in this thread bashing morrow and sjow. They didnt do anything wrong, this doesnt matter and has been blown way out of proportion.
Some people just love to hate and cry about everything, be it balance, how people play, or what questions a player asks about a tourny between friends. Perhaps they should just grow up and enjoy an awesome game.
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United States22883 Posts
I'm curious how people would view this if one of them wasn't heavily favored to win the event.
Say TLO had also been invited, so instead of just fighting between themselves for the finals, they would have been working together to lower TLO's chances of getting to 11. Is that worse in people's opinions?
+ Show Spoiler +If so, how is that different than the actual situation? Ignoring the possibility of an unknown causing an upset, the skill level of the competition determines whether it's ok to game them or not?
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Running a tourney where the prize pool increases depending on who wins is a bad idea. It gives players major incentive to talk about stuff like this, and the fact is that they asked permission first. Nothing wrong here.
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On December 23 2010 02:13 Zocat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. This is my thought exactly. "Hey IdrA wanna earn 500$? Just let me win the games". (I assume the notebook is worth more than 500$^^) "Ok, deal, just 2rax me, it's strong enough to beat me when I make some tiny mistakes and no one will know". Or what will happen in GSL Code S? Think about the oGs group (Nada, MC, Inca) + sanZenith. Imagine 1 oGs player (let's call him MC^^) is qualified. sanZenith pulls a miracle and is tied for 2nd place with another oGs player. That oGs player is playing MC last. Should MC let him win so 2 oGs players advance? Even though MC is the better player and would normally beat him which would lead to sanZenith advancing? The tournament format is strange, sure. It sounds similiar to premiums (like in football contracts, where players get more money for goals, advancing in tournaments, minimum league rankings,...) but in this case it's tournament side not sponsor/club side. But I dont think "Oh this sucks - I will try everything to exploit the system" is a good way to solve those problems. Reminds me of the Morrow ESL casting incident where he also acted first and sought communication later. Ah well - maybe it's just his age 
wasnt everyone complaining it looked like gomtv was fixing the brackets. matching boxer up with terrans. and some other unofficial bracket methods. but then people justified it by saying "its ok because it helps esports" is that any better than this (if it was true). how can the fans hold the players to one standard and the organizers to another? even if its "in the best interest of esports"
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On December 23 2010 02:22 Jibba wrote:
I'm curious how people would view this if one of them wasn't heavily favored to win the event.
Say TLO had also been invited, so instead of just fighting between themselves for the finals, they would have been working together to lower TLO's chances of getting to 11. Is that worse in people's opinions?
Yes of course it is, as bad as this is that would be so much worse just because they are doubling up on a player in a non team event.
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On December 23 2010 02:12 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:06 zev318 wrote:On December 23 2010 02:05 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:50 Treemonkeys wrote:On December 23 2010 01:42 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:38 floor exercise wrote:On December 23 2010 01:33 Aberu wrote:On December 23 2010 01:21 zev318 wrote:
its like Idra throwing the final series vs QXC in EG masters for some extra cash, i bet all of you who thinks this isnt a big deal would fucking flip out. It's not the same as that. First off, this isn't a big tournament, this is a tiny LAN that has an incentive for winning a lot of the series. Morrow and Sjow wanted to play the matches, but they also wouldn't want to eliminate each other from earning their prize. Plenty of pro-gamers have done this in the past because they have little to no incentive to turn down an offer with the risk of losing thousands of dollars. You work your butt off all year to get good, you finally get to the point where you are confident you can make it to the finals and get 10,000 bucks. But the opponent says look whoever wins this we'll split it 50-50. 2nd place is 2,000 dollars. You would be fucking stupid not to split. Why stop there? Why not the top 4 of GSL collude to just split their combined prize pool 4 ways? It's probably about 35-40 grand each, which is really nice if none of them are the absolute favorites. It goes against the spirit of competition. People aren't going to like it no matter how many different ways you try to rationalize what they were trying to do. Well the fact is, it goes on all the time. Without anyone knowing. And when people are transparent it's a scandal. The pro teams from korea get paid well enough where they don't have a survival issue where they would do this. I had met progamers that were damn hear homeless from games that don't have the awesome sponsorship, and every win with their immense talent was important. They would always make top 4 at tournaments, but due to the crappy payouts they would split. Just because they were splitting doesn't mean they wouldn't play out the match, and try their best to win. The finals matches of smash were always amazing, but everyone splits. Because competition is more important to that community than who gets the money. If everyone splits, they will still try their absolute best to win, because winning matters more. That's like saying this murder is okay because there are plenty of others you never knew about. Hey murder is the same as trying to make money from a tournament! People do kill for money. Quit trolling, I was calling him out on his slippery-slope fallacy.
Uh, no you weren't, you might have been trying to. I was comparing the excuse of "it happens all the time", I wasn't comparing match fixing to murder.
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On December 23 2010 02:22 SharkSpider wrote:
Running a tourney where the prize pool increases depending on who wins is a bad idea. It gives players major incentive to talk about stuff like this, and the fact is that they asked permission first. Nothing wrong here.
THANK YOU. Everyone is getting so butt hurt over a silly format and a question about the silly format.
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On December 23 2010 02:21 FrostShadow wrote:
Its a shame to see all the angry, hateful people in this thread bashing morrow and sjow. They didnt do anything wrong, this doesnt matter and has been blown way out of proportion.
Some people just love to hate and cry about everything, be it balance, how people play, or what questions a player asks about a tourny between friends. Perhaps they should just grow up and enjoy an awesome game.
lmao, people who want legit tournaments are angry and hateful? You just pulled that out of your ass.
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Whether or not the tournament is poorly designed doesn't give you leave to conspire to essentially defraud the hosts of the grand prize allocated to someone who puts on an exceptional performance.
If you want the grand prize earn it the way it's intended to be earned, through fair competition.
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when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there
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Morrow may be a very good guy IRL but he always seemed to be sketchy to me online. I ran a BW tournament a long while ago and had to remove Morrow from the tournament for very similar behavior. I guess it will just take a little growing up before it hits him.
With that being said, both players are very skilled and it's sad to see them wanting to match fix when they spent all their time practicing so they could go and legitimately win tournaments.
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Tournament format is irrelevant. Size of the tournament is irrelevant. The only thing that's relevant is what they tried to do, which is match fixing. Don't like a tournament due to its size or format, don't participate.
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On December 23 2010 02:22 Jibba wrote:
I'm curious how people would view this if one of them wasn't heavily favored to win the event.
Say TLO had also been invited, so instead of just fighting between themselves for the finals, they would have been working together to lower TLO's chances of getting to 11. Is that worse in people's opinions?
I don´t understand how they could lower TLO´s chances? They would still have to beat him 1v1, it´s not like they could 2v1 him.
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EPT
