EPTPainUser & HD Casting Feedback Thread! - Page 44
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phodacbiet
United States1740 Posts
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Fliparoni
205 Posts
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JimJigga
5 Posts
I don't like posting on TL in general because the community seems to be so anal about comments made here. With that said though, I do read most of the material and feel like I owe you a post because, like others in this thread, you got me interested in SC beyond a casual game. Here are my thoughts: I thought that your casting at IPL4 in Vegas was fine, not great. As has been said, I think the two areas of improvement are game knowledge and casting presence. As far as game knowledge goes, I don't think that it is nearly as big of an issue as people are making it out to be. I don't think that you are at the level of a Doa or Artosis where they heavily study the Korean metagame, but people are acting like you haven't been around the block. I think that your analytical commentary is far superior to Wheat or TotalBiscuit. To me it was clear that you weren't casting particularly well because you were simply nervous. I think that the quality of your live casts decrease compared to your private, solo casts more than any caster I know. Personally I don't blame you, because the SC community, while great, is incredibly critical and unforgiving. In terms of style and energy, don't try to be someone different than the casting personality that many have grown to love. My advice would be to find more ways to cast in front of live crowds, but not necessarily at large highly publicized events to just work on your stage presence. This leads into my next point which is in fact your stage presence. The problem is half due to nerves and half due to chemistry with PU. In my view, the problem is that PU is a very sarcastic guy who jokes by ragging on people. Your style on the other hand is just to be an incredibly nice guy, and more often than not you poke fun at yourself. PainUser's humor works out when the other caster is equally sarcastic and so then they can have equal banter back and forth. When he takes jabs at you, you end up just accepting it. I think that spending more time casting with PainUser, maybe even for just your stream, could help pan out your team chemistry. Please don't give up or take to heart the haterade on TL or Reddit. Dear PainUser, I really only started following you because you teamed up with HD. I think you game analysis is great. In terms of casting humor, I think that you just need to work with HD to sync up your senses of humor. Your voice kills me. Is it possible to get a new voice? Keep on keepin on gentelmen | ||
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Capulet
Canada686 Posts
On April 13 2012 06:32 phodacbiet wrote: I think people are just jumping the bandwagon on hating HD without actually knowing why they hate him. Yes, he isnt as knowledgeable as most casters, but his job isnt to teach you how to play. His job is to make the game entertaining and hype up the boring phases of the game and during battles. Look at the Stephano Vs. MMA game 2, stephano lost waaaay before the nukes (4 base going on 5 base terran vs 3 base zerg) and i think HD did a great job trying to hype up a boring won game.He just need to work on a few minor things but other than that he did a great job this weekend. I think the general consensus is that if you deliver misinformation, then the overall entertainment value decreases. I agree that HD's role in the PainUser/HD duel right now is to entertain and not to give the analysis. I think HD needs to draw a clear line between the analytical caster and the colour caster, at least for now until he gets a deeper understanding of the game. For example (and this is by no means an extensive one), PainUser should take care of explaining the upgrades, timings, etc. while HD tackles the main army confrontations, drops, expansions, etc. | ||
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iamtheoneneo
144 Posts
as per usual the reddit/TL community gets tainted by a very minor vocal group because they cant control their hormones properly and somehow see Starcraft and everything around it like its their godgiven right to have it perfectly how they want it to be. it doesnt take a genius to work out that esports commentators are few and far between and we should support those we have , not chastise them and tell them that they dont belong. Heck I think HD has been around the community a damn sight longer then most people posting in this thread and HD/Husky combined are quite clearly responsible with their early Youtube marketing in driving up interest and sales of starcraft 2.... so cut the man some slack | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
i always lol when you say something like: Battle cruiser gonna blow a load of yamato :D or "its hard for protoss players to deal with terran bio balls" :D | ||
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Dfgj
Singapore5922 Posts
On April 13 2012 09:56 iamtheoneneo wrote: Nothing amazing but watchable. That's nice, but I cringe whenever I hear misinformation in a cast, and that makes things less watchable for me. Casters are hired to do a job, if they don't do it well, why shouldn't people comment? | ||
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Hamzilla
United States143 Posts
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Glurkenspurk
United States1915 Posts
On April 12 2012 14:53 Parcelleus wrote: Painuser and HD, You guys have been the subject of internet trolls with nothing better to do. You guys are friendly , love SC2, human - which means errors can occur - big deal. You guys are a pleasure to watch, and you make a great team. Keep it up , and ignore the haters, not worth wasting your energy on. Cheers, Parcelleus. Fucking being friendly and loving sc2 isn't enough to be a good caster. This thread exists so that they can read criticism and improve. We do not need useless posts like yours that exist only to circlejerk their fanboyism for them. Anyway, I'm glad Painuser and HD stated that they are reading and trying to learn from these threads. It's always nice when they actually respond and try to improve. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On April 12 2012 14:17 xrapture wrote: He seemed fine to me, and certainly I didn't see any "misleading" things equivalent to "a football caster talking about how the point of the game is to get grand slams." I don't learn anything from any casters basically except when idra or another pro gamer casts analytically. Therefore, I like casters that I like. I wouldn't be playing SC2 if it wasn't for HD's casts on youtube, as I'm sure is the case for several hundred (thousand?) people so he'll always have a place in my heart. Still, I have no idea why HD was getting so much hate. HD, especially when he doesn't have a co-caster, just says a lot of things which are straight up wrong. For example, in the scarlett vs oz game 2, scarlett went for a 7 pool, but because hd was harping on about the colour of the t shirt of the producer or something for the first 2 minutes of the game, he didn't even notice until the pool was finished, he then saw there were ten drones finnished and declared it a 10 pool, saying it wasn't all in and that it was a clever pressure into expand build... Its things like this where casters say things which are directly wrong simply because they lack the game knowledge and/or are not paying attention to the game which make people really not like them, as a lot of people watch casting to learn, and if you never know if the caster has a clue what he's talking about, then you can't take anything he says at face value. I think HD either needs to practice alot and get a better understanding of all the matchups, or stick to being a play by play caster and not make any calls on strategy at all, leaving that to his better qualified co-caster. there are quite a few awkward moments (alot fewer recently though) where HD would say something, and painuser would then say the opposite about 10 seconds later, and HD would just agree with him, and i'm sitting here trying to work out what the casters are actually trying to say. Also, as quite a few people have said before, both painuser and HD have a tendency to get a little too excited when nothing is happening. If its just the begining of a game, or if one of the players has lost their entire main and is just microing a marine for the hell of it before gg-ing, there is no need to try and make it seem like its the most exciting thing you've ever seen. While i understand the need to make the cast feel interesting, this kind of enthusiasm just feels really fake, and because i have the feeling that the enthusiasm isn't genuine i find it alot harder to get amped up in the next game when something exciting is actually happening, because the casters tone is still the same excited pitch. If your always excited, then when something actually exciting happens, you can't turn it up anymore, leading to an entire cast at the same level of excitement which is rather flat. finally, i feel like hd and painuser seem to go on tangents for a bit too long at the start of a game, not saying anything about the builds til quite late into the game, and sometimes go on tangents in the middle of a game and end up missing major tech decisions and such because of it. the place for discussing anything not directly related to the game is between having announced the players, and when the commitment to a build is done, after that please focus on the game. Didn't meant to write that much but i sort of rambled :p, hopefully it doesn't come across as too negative, and hope to see you improve further.  | ||
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sirreginold
United States557 Posts
If I understood Korean, I would probably listen to the Korean commentators since they seem to bring the most excitement to the games and in-depth commentary as well. Not to mention professionalism. | ||
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coriamon
244 Posts
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
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JLew
Canada353 Posts
I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast.. | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 13 2012 11:24 JLew wrote: The hate for HD is so over-exaggerated it's not even funny.. He's by no means the worst caster in the world. To make myself clear, HD is nowhere near my favorite caster..but there are casters I know to be worse SC2 players than him that are more accepted by the community and not criticized for their lack of game knowledge.. I think HD's main issue isn't his game knowledge (my understanding was he is a mid-high masters player? Which isn't saying much but is as good as most casters except Day9, Artosis and Bitterdam.. and better than others like catspajamas and even djwheat if I am not mistaken).. the main issue is that he seems to miss stuff when trying to fill empty casting space with his talking.. I think HD is used to solo casting and tries to cram too much talking into the cast.. I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer. | ||
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tony241
24 Posts
- I think the clear thing here is that you aren't as good live as you are when you cast in a studio, pressure, nerves, whatever it is its like anything else, you get better with practice. Also, its hard when you hype something up, and it stays at plateaued because you started hyping it to soon. It should be like a crescendo to the climax, which don't get me wrong, is very hard to do. I guess it improves with game knowledge. Pain - I love your stuff, keep it up, and its not even because your pretty, question mark | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On April 13 2012 11:26 Alejandrisha wrote: Yes, and that's always been the knock on HD. It's better to be honest about what you know (as TB and Cats do) than try to make up stuff. It's like continually lying to get out of a bigger lie, instead of actually just being honest and realistic. Saying something completely wrong is infinitely worse for medium level+ knowledge viewers than making no analysis/prediction and just describing the game. Granted, I'm more critical than most but it's not like I randomly spew venom and never re-evaluate my stances, and I don't make judgements based on things like "hyping up the crowd too much" or their voice.I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer. When HDH first ran during the beta two years ago, I made the exact same criticisms of HD and Husky as I have in this thread, and it's the exact same criticisms we made of Klazart before that. Being popular and drawing in viewers doesn't excuse bad information and bad representations of the game. New/low level people won't realize this, but hopefully they get more involved in the game and gain more knowledge, in which case their tastes in casters often changes. There's been dozens of such comments in this thread reflecting that. After HDH ended, I commended HD because he was actually starting to ladder and stream, and I thought he was putting in the work to become a higher level caster, whereas Husky was just making music videos. Fastforward to mid-last year and the situations completely reversed. Husky was making leaps and bounds from MLG to MLG, while HD seemed stagnant at IPL3 as he did at IPL4. To make it any more specific, I would have to go back and re-watch IPL4 which I just don't want to do (and there's been many examples posted in this thread), but the theme of my complaint has been the same from HDH to IPL3 to IPL4. You can cater to casual fans without providing bad information. That's what the top play by play guys have learned to do, and it doesn't even require Masters level knowledge. | ||
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nyaru267
United States117 Posts
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On April 13 2012 11:26 Alejandrisha wrote: I think the big thing is that when hd doesn't know something for sure, he takes a stab at it, whereas catspajamas wouldn't claim to know something. Because people seem to only get all ruffled up when casters make a mistake, hd takes a lot of heat whereas catspajamas plays it safer. This is the single most important point in this entire thread (may have been stated before but it is well said here). HD is a great guy, but as a caster you have to know and play to your strengths and weaknesses. Look at djWHEAT as an example. He knows that he doesn't know something, so he will ask his co-caster (such as day9). This may seem like it will reveal your lack of knowledge, but it's quite the opposite! He asks the best questions because while he may not know something, it's quite likely many viewers do not know the same thing. Thus he gets day9 to respond with great information and everyone is happy. Instead, what you (HD) do is definitively declare something that is wrong. A good example that comes to mind is the losers finals at IPL4 between squirtle and nestea (IIRC). On tal'darim, squirtle gets a stargate (he is going to be up against a baneling allin), and you declare in the cast that the stargate is "horrible" and an awful decision. If you would simply ask painuser "what do you think of this stargate? Do you think it's a good idea?" Or "what do you think this stargate will help him with?" you would be in such a better position. Instead you definitively state that squirtle is terrible and made a terrible decision when in fact it was the best decision he could possibly have made in that position, and was the decision that won him the game. Try to be more neutral when you aren't sure of something and ask questions instead of stating facts. You are co-casting, not solo casting. Use the resource of a co-caster you have available to you! | ||
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Brutaxilos
United States2624 Posts
Anyways, aside from that here is my personal feedback. I've said this before but I would just like to reemphasize this. HD, be yourself. Back in the HDH you had great complement with Husky as you were more analytical and Husky was more joking. Nowadays, you seem to be trying to manage that role as well. I will be honest that you just aren't the most funny person (maybe its just the Asian awkwardness (I'm Asian as well and I sometimes feel that its just more difficult to speak more emotionally (I think its just a vocal range thing))). Be yourself! Don't force yourself to try and be funny. You're entertaining enough already.  As for Painuser, you're doing great. Nothing really else to say. Good luck you guys! | ||
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