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Terran do have other options through, they are called marines. You just can't do it at certain timing intervals but enough numbers of them will beat any sort of pure Zergling style. You will still need to add some factory tech to deal with the banelings, unless you can split like a masters. Just like it have always worked in SC2. Hell add in just a few siege tanks works wonders against that style. Bio/tank is a timeless classic.
Without a role against protoss or even Terran, i really don't see how lone firebats will fit in. And Blizzard already did the math on how strong those guys need to be for that to happen, we don't need to argue about that really. The Marauder/firebat hybrid was an idea designed to combat the limited role of each of those units. However it was apparantly impossible to mix in the weakness of the firebats range and attackcone and at the same time the marauder on its own got a vast buff in the variety of units it could fight (suddenly they worked vs Hydras). Leaving us with a unit that was too diverse for its own good.
However i do think we need to consider how to progress from here. We have been with the firebats before. They are truly lacking in diversity, when they can't be used against Terran or Protoss, or even half of Zerg. There are like 2 units it is designed to kill. I don't even know if drops are that good with them.
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The Barrack is loaded with units now
It might be a little bit ugly
A better tooltip in the barack could make it more clean, if its possible?
On the first row, every unit that do not require a techlab
On the second row, you have "techlab required"
Then the third row: only units which require techlab
Hmm
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Terran do have other options through, they are called marines. You just can't do it at certain timing intervals but enough numbers of them will beat any sort of pure Zergling style.
50zerglings beat 25marines without stim quite easy.
It takes a long time to reach a high amount of marines, so firebat is very handy in the opening.
Also, they are used against zerg in darkswarm.
There is also the potential that bio will work against protoss(?)
so firebats have a role against zealots there.
Ghost(?)
No change to ghost?
Right now, he feels rather boring to use.
You make him, use his "lockdown", thats it.
I had something minor inplace for him.
Replace "lockdown" with "snipe".
Snipe:
10 range, 25mana, 25damage(ignores armor)
When you target an enemy, the ghost stands in place for three seconds. Then shoot.
If ghost get hit while standing in place, the snipe gets interrupted.
If target moves 13range away, the shoot gets interrupted
When hit:
On mechanical units: Not able to shoot or cast spell for three seconds(Works against reaver, arbiter), also works against warpprism, dropship(not able to drop or unload)
On biologicalunits: The shoot penetrates(think of railgun from quake)
The railgun on biological units would be something.
I understand if you dont want this
Wouldnt necessarily make him fun to use either.
Although, atleast some more fun ability
The purpose of replacing lockdown: Mainly because with lockdown used on warpprism, he can still load/unload units(micro reaver), so terran with bio(even with ghost) have nothing against reaver right now.
Also, rather boring spell to use(nobrain spell)
Since we are working on the sentinel, i believe it could be more fun if we see bioplay, that protoss use sentinel over reaver for both sides(more micro, and more tactic this way)
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I do approve of the flame cannon thingys as well. Just make sure they cannot slaughter an endless amount of lings each. Let them have the firbat's current attack (maybe slightly buffed) and slightly more hp. You'd need to make more than one of those to protect SCV's from zing run-byes later in the game and where you place them will be important.
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Why not combine the need for Ghosts to be more interesting with the need for early counters to Lings?
An ability thats good at dealing with masses of units on a semi early spellcaster that already gets a bonus against light units.
The simplest version would be "Drop Pyroturret", basically letting the Ghost drop a timed version of the discussed turret.
Other ideas could be a simple AOE blast that sets fire to all units in the radius, a much weaker but very cheap and spammable snipe designed to deal quick burst damage to a lot of units or some kind of disrupter bomb that hinders enemy control of the units for a short period.
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The purpose of replacing lockdown: Mainly because with lockdown used on warpprism, he can still load/unload units(micro reaver), so terran with bio(even with ghost) have nothing against reaver right now.
This is a very good point.
The current "lockdown" is almost a better counter to Stalker/Dragoons than the Reaver. Basically, the slow'ed ability of lockdown isn't particularly usefull against units that are either superfast (like speedprism) or superslow (like reaver), but is better against units of medium speed (such as Stalkers/Dragoons) that otherwise would be able to escape.
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@Ghost
He can need a second look aswell. I am willing to do something more with him.
@Flame turret
If we place a Firebat in the Bunker, we get a Flame turret? I think it is important that T has acess to a mobile way of dealing with mass Lings. If T has a unit that can "summon" flame turrets, this might help to solve that issue. But would it not be strange if Ghosts have that ability? A small sneaky agent throws 1-2 big Flame turrets on the ground.
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If we place a Firebat in the Bunker, we get a Flame turret? I think it is important that T has acess to a mobile way of dealing with mass Lings. If T has a unit that can "summon" flame turrets, this might help to solve that issue. But would it not be strange if Ghosts have that ability? A small sneaky agent throws 1-2 big Flame turrets on the ground.
I agree with this. I don't think we have to make this issue more complicated than it really is. While Firebat isn't the most interesting unit, it is neccesary to deal with Dark Swarm and for bio to move out early game.
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If we place a Firebat in the Bunker, we get a Flame turret? I think it is important that T has acess to a mobile way of dealing with mass Lings. If T has a unit that can "summon" flame turrets, this might help to solve that issue. But would it not be strange if Ghosts have that ability? A small sneaky agent throws 1-2 big Flame turrets on the ground.
The point is through that the flame turret could also replace the planetary, since it doesn't cost supply, which widens it's use beyond against Zerglings. As long as our "solution" for Zerglings cost supply, there is a very strict limit for its usage as static defense. Also the flame turret would kinda be wierd on the ghost, i agree. "Pocket Turrets" are not unheard off as Swann could drop one in the WOL campaign called "flaming betty". But he was more of a combat engineer than a ghost type of unit.
Additional note:
Another reason i don't like the "pocket turret". Stealthed Sentry drops from Hell. Forcefields... i mean Turrets that last at least trice as long, and deal AOE damage. Steathed sentries, i mean ghosts that does much higher damage to workers too. Everything you loathe about sentry drops, finished in less than half the time...
Might as well give firebats a "hellfire gauntlets" upgrade that gives the +12 damage to light, and just endure that they too will be relentlessly dropped on workers. Because those at least would also be useful against Terran and Protoss.
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The point is through that the flame turret could also replace the planetary
Terran dont need any staticdefence.
Also, if it was a staticdefence, like the photoncannon.
What would happen when terran do their tank pushes combined now with the new flamethrower.
When terran have limit mech armee, now they build tons of flamethrowers.
But would it not be strange if Ghosts have that ability? A small sneaky agent throws 1-2 big Flame turrets on the ground.
I would like this actually.
Remember in the sc2beta, ghost could summon six marines to harass.
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That was an alpha build, and I think Blizzard was rightfully mocked for the calldown marine idea.  Interestingly, the community used to be really opposed to any sort of summoning ability, like the infestor's infested terran. I do not know why, maybe it reminded them of warcraft 3, a game that team liquid considered to be awful at the time.
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Just wanna point this out here.
Probes mine minerals the fastest.
Second comes the drone
And last, the scv
"The relative mining efficiency of workers is scv mining at 100% efficiency, drone at 182/174 = 105% efficiency and probe at 182/154 = 118% efficiency, based on the mining animation lengths"
Seems the reason for this is because: The nexus is the closest to the minerlas, and command center farthest away
That was an alpha build, and I think Blizzard was rightfully mocked for the calldown marine idea. Interestingly, the community used to be really opposed to any sort of summoning ability, like the infestor's infested terran. I do not know why, maybe it reminded them of warcraft 3, a game that team liquid considered to be awful at the time.
One ability i was looking forward to alot actually. Was sad when they removed it.
Blizzard had so many harass things going before they released thegame fully.
Viking>transform
Ghost>Summon
Reaper>bombs on the ground
Maybe even more, but everything got removed or didnt work
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On October 05 2013 22:51 Foxxan wrote:
Just wanna point this out here.
Probes mine minerals the fastest.
Second comes the drone
And last, the scv
"The relative mining efficiency of workers is scv mining at 100% efficiency, drone at 182/174 = 105% efficiency and probe at 182/154 = 118% efficiency, based on the mining animation lengths"
Seems the reason for this is because: The nexus is the closest to the minerals, and command center farthest away
Source? This was the case in BW, but not in SC2. (I thought).
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Oh, OK. Well I am 98% sure that was unintended and I don't think there is any need to replicate that. Also I don't think it's statistically significant.
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It can be desirable to have differences between workers. For instance, if drones outrange probes it could encourage worker harass. Or you could make chronoboost more powerful if you increased probe build time slightly. Not to say that these two ideas are brilliant, but just as an example. I actually think it is a bit boring that workers are more similar in sc2 than in bw, it is like a step down in diversity.
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On October 05 2013 22:28 Foxxan wrote:Terran dont need any staticdefence.
I disagree. Harassment got much stronger in SC2 with stuff like Warp-in and Unlimited selection, making Zerg much easier to control. At the same time both protoss and Zerg got strong anti-harass tools besides their static defence like Recall(rift in Starbow) or Queens as a first line of defence.
Terran got none of that and that is why the planetary exist. Also why the missile turret is so potent in SC2. It is the only line of defence and it better damm do the job. And it is why i insist that if we want to remove the planetary we got to replace it with something.
We got to understand that we are still not Brood war and this is where there is the largest difference.
Also, if it was a staticdefence, like the photoncannon.
What would happen when terran do their tank pushes combined now with the new flamethrower.
When terran have limit mech armee, now they build tons of flamethrowers.
A valid concern, but you got to remember that they only got 4 range. Against anything that shoots, this flame thrower is just an overpriced supply depot. Which begs the question, why havn't terran been making offensive supply depot walls to back up their tank positions. If it happens then i havn't seen it. I will admit that i have seen missile turrets being made to provide air coverage through.
Still i really would like to see this on the test map.
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Warpin and feedback are also strong antiharassment tools for sc2 protoss
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Harassment got much stronger in SC2 with stuff like Warp-in and Unlimited selection
Warp-in is beeing looked at and its already nerfed a bit.
Everyone got unlimited selection, dont see the problem.
making Zerg much easier to control
why? Because they have more units?
But they have less spellcasters. And terran have very many marines against zerg.
It goes in both ways, someparts might be easier for zerg, and some parts are easier for other races.
At the same time both protoss and Zerg got strong anti-harass tools besides their static defence like Recall(rift in Starbow) or Queens as a first line of defence.
I would call these things minor in defence.
but you got to remember that they only got 4 range
Only four range is alot of range, on an aoe light static defence.
Against anything that shoots, this flame thrower is just an overpriced supply depot
I dont know the price yet. But still, siegetanks shoots farthest in the game.
Zealots are melee, so are lings. It sounds got damn overpowered in my eyes.
The static defence will take no supply, and do more light damage than vultures.
why havn't terran been making offensive supply depot walls to back up their tank positions
It happens here and there
Warpin and feedback are also strong antiharassment tools for sc2 protoss
starbow have no feedback (yet atleast)
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@Mining
I've explained this before and it is explained on the article peice itself.
It isn't due to bases being further away. It is due to the actual structures themselves being shaped better for receiving minerals.
If you read further about this and what game play effects it had, it was overall incredibly minimal to the actual economies of each race relative to each other.
It really isn't something you'd want to mimic.
Here is a source to show just how little effect it actually has:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=83287
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EPT
