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On another topic:
there are 2 big problems atm:
-tvp terran ecolead gets too strong because CCfirst can't be punished, while nexus first is not done due to potential reaper openings
-tvz hard to balance because reaperopenings are too good at forcing out units constantly, giving the terran again a big ecolead
i've seen many potential fixes for one of those issues, but i do think we should just take the easy way here and just remove the reaper. Agreed the reaper might lead to some action in early game zvt, but the same can be done with vultures which come out a bit later and give the zerg enough time to get some drones out. The reapers role after the earlygame is non-existent and the only other use of it is scouting. Terran has the possibility to scan if he needs to scout, problem here is that it shares energy with macro mechanics, so optimally terran should not use scan.
I think scan in bw makes terran much more different from the other races, he does not necessarily needs to rush out an end-tier caster to move out on the map and he has the possibility to scan army movements, making strategical and tactical play much more viable and thus giving it all the more a TERRAN feeling (and a cooler way to scout army movements than the sensor tower, which is not good to use offensively).
I think we should reintroduce the comsat station.
Together with removing the reaper we get:
Toss can nexus first again, letting toss fight on equal ground with the terran in the early game (solving the economic problem) and making 1 gate expo a choice and not a necessity.
Terran does not automatically have scan available, making dt builds more viable.
Mid/late game mech play gets more interesting, because the terran can scan the army movements of the toss if he uses it right.
ZvT has no imba unit dictating the early game.
only question remains, what shall be the requirement for building the comsat station?
edit: with reintroducing the comsat station i imply that macro mechanics and scan should have separate energy
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only question remains, what shall be the requirement for building the comsat station?
Orbital command -> combat station
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@ Reaper
I think I agree on the reaper removal. At least for now. It is paramount that we try how this game is/feels with ported maps, new eco, new movement speed etc. And a "hard-to-balance" early-game unit that upsets BW balance does more harm than good at this current state. Terran has plenty of harass tools. Time to see how good vulture drops, early marines pushes and banshees are instead!
Also, the barracks already have 6 units atm which is quite a bit, this solves that problem as well.
@ Map-pool
I have ported Tau Cross and Roadrunner into maps that have the same rush distances than their BW counterparts (+- 1,5 seconds). They are both 144x144 (the playable part) compared to 168x168. They are being textured / will be textured and should be ready for game-play soon. I plan to do the same with destination. It will be good to get more maps than just fighting winter spirit with the right size!
Hopefully we can start to phase out some of the old, big maps.
Edit: If wanted, we can start to play on these maps now, but they look very ugly with no textures atm.
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The game needs more maps not only maps with BroodWar. In SC2 are really good maps.
I see that this game is going only in BW and in a few months can be 99% BW.
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Reaper
Hmm.. It is indeed a problematic unit.
Maps
We use many BW maps, mainly because they fit better with the Sbow balance, compared to SC2 maps. Maybe will mapmakers be interested in making maps meant for Sbow later on. (Completely new maps.)
Terran macro mechanic
I think I will have a working version available tomorrow. I will write more details later on.
Is Sbow too much like BW?
I see that this game is going only in BW and in a few months can be 99% BW.
>>>+ Show Spoiler +If we assume BW is the base game, I make an overview of everything new the races have in Sbow. (Stuff that is not in BW.)
Terran
Orbital with Calldown SCV and Supply drop
Supply depots can be lowered into the ground.
Reactor & Tech lab
PF
Sensor Tower
Reaper
Marauder
Matrix on Medic
Viking
Banshee
Nerve Jammer
BC with "better" Yamato and a strange teleport ability. (I will look more into this later.)
Dropship with speed boost
Protoss
Chrono boost
Rift
Warp gate
Stalker
Sentinel
Scout with Phase missile
Corsair with graviton beam
Fleet beacon upgrades
Warp Prism
Observer ability
Zerg
Queen with Inject, Nurturing swarm and Creep spread
Zerg ground units can upgrade move while burrowed
Baneling
Scourge with splash
Viper
Overlord drop creep
Spine & Spore crawlers can move
Nydus worm works slightly different
Devourer works diferently atm, compared to BW
Then the races also have some modified balance compared to BW. (For example Dark Swarm and Stimpack are much weaker now.)
In terms of quantity, Terran seems to have the most new stuff. But some of the stuff is more impactful than others.
But I intend to make all races feel somewhat rewarded in this area. Not fun if one races feels new and exciting, and another race just feels like BW. Keep in mind that the Zerg likely will get the Roach. (I am playing around with some concepts and dynamics.)
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Since this thread is a little bit like "design by committee", it's probably tempting to keep units in the game if even only one person likes the unit. The result will be that the barracks has six units though. 
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I like the idea of the reaper, but for now I do think it should be left out of the game.
It can always be added later with a design more fit to any problems in the metagame that may arise.
Is it just me, or are the problems and changes (apart from this reaper buisness) we are discussing getting smaller and smaller nowadays? seems like the mod is starting to really take shape.
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Terran macro mechanic explanation
Ok, here is how I have managed to get it to work. (With a lot of help, mainly from Charysmatic at sc2mapster.com who created the trigger.)
1. Orbital command has an ability called Overcharge.
2. Overcharge costs X energy and can be used on CC, OC, PF, Barrack, Factory or Starport.
3. A permanent buff is added to the structure. It right now looks like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YMzZsz3.jpg)
4. The structure can now produce 2 units at the same time. (Like a reactor.)
5. As soon as one of the two units finishes, the buff is removed.
6. Any combination of units can be produced at the same time. (Even tech lab units)
7. If a structure already has Overcharge on it, Terran can not cast it again on the same structure.
8. A structure can fly around with the buff on it.
9. The ordinary Reactor will be removed from the game. (Only Tech labs)
10. To sum it up: This ability is basically a one-time-reactor that must be renewed throughout the game.
Some practical situations Overcharge can be used in:
- A Barrack produces nothing. Drop Overcharge on it. Pump Marines.
- A Barrack produces a Marine and has 3 Marines in queue. If Overcharge is dropped early in the production process, it will last longer. If Overcharge is dropped 5 seconds before the Marine is finished, the second unit will only be produced for 5 seconds. (Since the buff is removed when the first unit finishes.)
Kinda like Chrono boost used on an upgrade. If P casts it when an upgrade has 5 seconds left before it is finished, the rest of the Chrono boost effect is wasted.
However, lets say you queue 4 Marines. The Marine is 1-2 seconds away from being finished. You cast Overcharge at that moment. Sometimes the buff will be removed exactly when the Marine finishes. (It gets added and removed almost immediately.) But sometimes the buff will "survive" the unit who just finished, and instead start to produce the two next units. So it is a small window of time, just when a unit is almost completedf, where it is hard to know if the buff will be applied or not. It happens quite rarely, but might be annoying, I will see if it is fixable.
How can we balance this?
All races now have a method to temporarily boost their worker and army production. (Inject, Chrono boost, Overcharge.) All methods require APM and focus on the base.
How good must CB, Inject and Overchage be to make them equally strong?
Shall we still keep Calldown SCV in the game, but in a much weaker form? (50 energy, 60 sec cooldown?) Mainly due to all fun utility that ability has.
Thoughts on this macro mechanic?
Poll: What do you think of this macro mechanic?Sounds good! Just need to balance it! (9) 60% I think we should keep Calldown SCV and Tech lab/Reactor (4) 27% I think it needs some additional design work. (2) 13% No macro mechanics at all please! (0) 0% 15 total votes Your vote: What do you think of this macro mechanic? (Vote): Sounds good! Just need to balance it!
(Vote): I think it needs some additional design work.
(Vote): I think we should keep Calldown SCV and Tech lab/Reactor
(Vote): No macro mechanics at all please!
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@Macromechanic Overcharge
1) You use it on a factory with techlab on:
- You produce tank = twotanks=44BT
- You produce vulture=two vultures=28BT
All in all, everytime you use overcharge, you get two units=same BT as one
To make this even, CB needs to have its effect till that unit is done also.
2)You use CB on gateway
- You produce a zealot=CB needs to be in effect from beginning to end
- You produce Dragoon=CB needs to be in effect from beginning to end
CB needs 100% effect
How about inject? Toss,and terran gets two units for the same BT as one.
I think it needs to be redesigned to more sc2 style inject.
3) CB and Overcharge
- Have CB have less effect on upgrades
- Also less impact on lategame units such as arbiter if overcharge gets reduce effect also
All in all, diminish effect.
One possible thing i would kinda try out is:
Have it have less impact on CC and nexus.
- More focus on macro=more action
Hard to try this now, since inject is both eco and units
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How to balance the macro mechanics
The game would indeed be easier to balance without them. BW is easy in that regard - all races have equal saturation time of workers. All units and structures have a set value in production time that can not be manipulated by Inject, CB, Nurturing swarm or anything. More production buildings = the only way to transform more resources into units. Zerg is the only exception, since Z bases can saturate faster than any other race. (But at the expense of less unit production.)
I do think that macro will feel quite lame in Sbow without any macro mechanics at all. And if we manage to get them balanced, I think they have potential to add more depth and variation to the game. Most importantly, they add an APM skill ceiling to macro. (Although its debatable how important that is.)
Here is my suggestion for balance:
Some critera I want all macro mechanics to have
- Require quite equal effort in APM
- Roughly as efficient
- Can speed up worker and unit production.
Some factors worth to consider:
- How powerful is the effect at speeding up worker production?
- How powerful is the effect at speeding up structures, upgrades or unit production?
- How versatile are the macro mechanics?
- What other abilities share the energy pool?
- What is the cost to upgrade the macro mechanic? (OB, Queen, Nexus upgrade)
- How long time does it take to upgrade it? (Lost worker production)
Almost all details below are what we already have in the game. I note where there is a difference.
Terran
+ Show Spoiler +Orbital command costs 125-150 minerals. (75 now)
Build time 40-45 seconds. (30 now)
Requires Barrack.
Starts with 25 or 50 energy. (50 now)
Max energy 100. (200 now)
Three abilities:
Calldown SCV - 25 energy, 50 minerals, 30 sec cooldown. (Same as now)
Overcharge - 25 energy, adds a one-time-reactor to a Barrack, Factory or Starport.
Scan - 25 energy (50 now)
Protoss
+ Show Spoiler +Upgraded Nexus costs 75 minerals
Takes 30 sec to research.
Requires Gateway
Starts with 50 energy.
Max energy 100.
Two abilities:
Chrono boost - 25 energy, speeds up production by 100% for 10-12 seconds. Cannons are only speeded up by 50%.
(The production is speeded up by 50% during 15 seconds in Sbow atm)
Rift - 50 or 75 energy, teleport 5 ground units to the Nexus.
Zerg
+ Show Spoiler +Queen costs 150 minerals
Requires Spawning pool
40 sec build time
Starts with 50 energy.
100 max energy.
Three abilities:
Inject - 25 energy, speeds up larva spawn rate by 60% for 40 seconds.
Creep tumor - 25 energy
Nurturing Swarm - 25 energy, heal 75 life, or speed up the morphing rate on target structure by 100% for 15 seconds.
Some comments:
+ Show Spoiler +The saturation time will be very even between the races. Just as in BW. If they use the macro mechanic non-stop to speed up workers, it will take ca 320-340 seconds for each race to produce 24 workers from the main base. (Right now in Sbow, Terran is fastest, Zerg close second, P far behind.) Although it becomes more complex the more bases the races acquire. Zerg still benefits the most there.
The races will have quite similar APM requirements in the macro mechanics, since all abilities have the same cost and fairly similar duration. Inject lasts 40 seconds though, but if I shorten the duration, it will still take 40 seconds for Queen to regenerate that amount of energy. Creep spread and Nurturing Swarm requires more APM though.
Terran will however have the strongest unit macro mechanic - Overcharge. But if the energy pool is shared with Scan, it is dangerous for T to overcommit. It is also more expensive and vulnerable to get OC now, since both the cost and build time is increased. (More lost worker production time.)
Keep in mind, Terran has this macro mechanic as a permanent thing in Sbow atm. Reactors give this effect non-stop, without any APM requirement, without any energy cost, all the time. So it will still be a nerf to T early army production.
Chrono boost will be a bit stronger now, mainly because it is very weak in Sbow atm, compared to T and Z macro mechanics. But it is the most versatile of the abilities - can be used on econ, defence, unit production and upgrades. It does not share energy with any other important spell, and can always be spammed. So I think it should still remain a little bit weaker than Z and T.
Scan and shared energy is a potential problem. If the energy cost of the OC macro abilities are too high, there will never be energy for Scan. If the energy cost is cheaper, it will be more easy to regenerate energy for a Scan. It is a risk for T to spam Overcharge or Calldown SCV too much at the wrong situation, and thus they can be a little bit more powerful?
We can also remove Calldown SCV altogether, and just let Overcharge affect CC, OC and PF too. But I like the versatility of Calldown SCV. It can be used in many situations for all kinds of tricks.
Longer build time and cost on the OC might help to make CC first play more vulnerable vs Protoss.
I will continue to do more calculations/testings tomorrow. But it is hard to know exactly how this will work in a real game, since build orders, early pressure, maps, meta game, and other factors contribute to this. We also have factors like: Shall Queen have its attack available from the start? Shall Reapers remain in the game?
I try to look at this in pure numbers - how fast can races saturate their bases? How much units can the races have at that point of time in the game?
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Three abilities:
Calldown SCV - 25 energy, 50 minerals, 30 sec cooldown. (Same as now)
Overcharge - 25 energy, adds a one-time-reactor to a Barrack, Factory or Starport.
Scan - 25 energy (50 now)
Wait, what? I thought overcharge would replace Calldown SCV. I thought it was soo cute and clever. You get to produce two scv's OR two combat units. Now you chose between eco or macro!
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keep calldown scv (calldown scv mid map build sensor towers = loads of fun) but I like the overcharge idea. TBH, even though I die to fantasy's reapers every time I play, I'll be a little sad to see them go. They REALLY forced out some creative defenses and made the early game into an interesting challenge. That said, zerg cannot expand with them and any lair timing with mutas or lurkers to take the third can get easily shut down by a follow up marine medic ball.
More importantly: The burrow second tier upgrades say that defilers can move while burrowed. I can't find the burrow button on defilers in the first place. Halp! Also, vipers in the editor. Localization errors fml EU!
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I do like how assymetrical the macro mechanics outlined are. Seems like Terran has the most raw power in the abilities on OC, by the cost of being less flexible and sharing energy pool with scan. Protoss has the rediculously versitile CB, that is also a bit weaker than the other abilities. Zerg is in the middle with a choise between faster tech or faster production, and a fairly strong boost with both abilities.
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On October 07 2013 05:46 [SC]Django wrote:
The game needs more maps not only maps with BroodWar. In SC2 are really good maps.
I see that this game is going only in BW and in a few months can be 99% BW.
By porting BW maps to the "right size" (according to movement speed and rush distances) we get a sense of how large the maps should be and how many bases they should have etc...
I want to port out some more BW maps and try them out. THEN I think we can start to make our own maps according to some golden rules that we discover in the process. That's how I think about the current situation at least.
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Btw, maybe it's interesting/inspiring to have a look at some of these threads: link link, especially the earliest ones that were responses to Blizzard's original macro mechanic proposals and aren't colored yet by experience.
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Thoughts on macromechanics
The problem with the suggested approach is that it makes it impractical for terran to OC in scenarios where he wants to do 2-base pressure oriented play, as it simply takes forever for the OC to pay off.
This would't be a big issue if A) 2-base play wasn't standard in BW or B) The macromechanics weren't so easily accessible for the other races.
However, in bio vs zerg, the terran wants to stay a long time on 2 bases, and thus teching to OC isn't really an option for any other purpose than for scans. Even with the current cost of 75 minerals, its still a waste of ressources to get it vs zerg for any other purpose than scan - thus I believe terran is in desperate need of production speed ability at a low inital investment.
On the other hand zerg gets an absolutely free lunch in the Queen with no downside to it relative to in BW. Thus, this is creating a zerg-favored dynamic relative to BW.
Dirtybag has also pointed out that terran loses production time by having to upgrade to tech lab's, which can have a decent impact of the early game. Giving terran early access to reactoraddon seems like an interesting compensation, however with the high fixed investment fee, this won't be practical.
But even in situations where you plan to take a somewhat quick 3rd, I think you will just delay the OC for a long time, since you as terran need to have a certain unit count out to secure a 3rd base. If you have to invest alot of ressurces into OC upgrade, then you can't have the army count out at the same time.
So in a normal game it is my theory that you will only use scv calldown maybe 3 or 4 times throughout the entire game, since you will first get the OC so late into the game where your already decently saturated.
Different solutions
I see two other approaches that I believe can create a better balance;
Approach 1: Cheap upgrade to OC --> Starts with 25 energy --> Acces to scan, 50-energy cost Scv Calldown and reactor addon.
This means that the fixed fee you have to pay to research scan is lower than in BW, but the opportunity cost is a lot higher. So you have acces to scan earlier on, but you now have to choose carefully when you want to scan. If you plan to move out and opponent has Lurkers/DT's (and you have no SV's), you will need to sacrifice a bit of econ or production speed.
I don't believe this has a significant effect on balance as the strenght of macromechanics doesn't matter that much post 10 minute mark, thus as long as terran can use macromechanics pre 10 minute mark, it will be decently balanced.
Relative to chrono boost the macroabilities should be slightly more energy-efficient (as in 20%, not 150%) to compensate for the increased opportunity cost.
Approach 2: Cheap upgrade to OC --> Starts with 25/50 energy --> Access to 50-energy cost Scv calldown and reactor addon, but to access scan you need to invest into an addon to the OC that has a seperate energy pool from the OC. The efficiency per energy of Scv Calldown should here be the same as the efficiency of Chrono Boost.
This is probably most similar to BW in terms of fixed fee investment and there is no opportunity cost for scan. The opportunity cost here is between the reactor add on and scv calldown. As game progresses and you get a good saturation, the need for calling down extra scvs become less important, thus reactor-addon will turn into a "brainless" macro ability late game.
Final remarks
Both of these approache's have differences relative to BW in terms of the effect on balance, however in some ways it is a small buff for terran, in other ways vice versa, thus I think it may even out. The current suggested approach on the other hand is a big nerf to terran early game. When one race gets the short end in the early game it often times accelerate, which means that they get further behind as the game progresses, and need to play a turtlish defensive game as they have a lower unit count.
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One of the tricky aspects of chronoboost is that it's not functional as a production mechanic in most cases because, say, building one additional gateway is equivalent to having perfect mechanics throughout the entire game. It's mostly useful for upgrades and specific timings for important units like the colossus.
If you make the OC mechanic overly strong you'll get mass orbitals in late game as a replacement for actual production buildings, but if you make it too weak it's no longer discriminating. It might be a tricky balance.
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On October 07 2013 18:27 Grumbels wrote:
One of the tricky aspects of chronoboost is that it's not functional as a production mechanic in most cases because, say, building one additional gateway is equivalent to having perfect mechanics throughout the entire game. It's mostly useful for upgrades and specific timings for important units like the colossus.
Yeh, me Dec and Dirty also discussed the idea of buffing Chrono on gateways only (if that's possible). So it could be 50% on forge, stargate, robo, upgrades, nexus, but 100% boost on Gateways.
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@Response to comments on Macro mechanics
The problem with the suggested approach is that it makes it impractical for terran to OC in scenarios where he wants to do 2-base pressure oriented play, as it simply takes forever for the OC to pay off.
thus I believe terran is in desperate need of production speed ability at a low inital investment.
Giving terran early access to reactoraddon seems like an interesting compensation, however with the high fixed investment fee, this won't be practical.
In the current Sbow balance, T pays 75 minerals for OB, and 50/50 for a Reactor. Both those methods boosts army and worker production. If Orbital costs 125 or 150 minerals, and starts with enough energy for both Calldown SCV and Overcharge, then it will still be quite evened out for T? Overcharge only works once though, unlike a Reactor. But it can also be used to get two powerful units out, for example two Siege tanks.
The current suggested approach on the other hand is a big nerf to terran early game. When one race gets the short end in the early game it often times accelerate, which means that they get further behind as the game progresses, and need to play a turtlish defensive game as they have a lower unit count.
Keep in mind that Calldown SCV, OC and Reactor are the best macro mechanics atm in Sbow. Especially worker production is superior. The solution suggested above intends to increase the build time of OC by 10-15 seconds. (Since right now T looses no mining time at all since he can calldown SCV immediately.) Another approach can be to add a starting delay to Calldown SCV. Or maybe just let the mineral cost of OC be higher. The cost is 50-75 minerals extra for OC, but T gets potential for a reactor in that price.
So is this such a huge nerf to T early game?
Approach 1:
Approach 2:
By Hider.
This is potential solutions aswell. If the energy cost is 50 for Calldown SCV and Overcharge, it will be less APM demanding though, compared to the other races, since it can not be used as often.
As game progresses and you get a good saturation, the need for calling down extra scvs become less important, thus reactor-addon will turn into a "brainless" macro ability late game.
But as long as T takes new bases, or looses workers, he will always want to use Calldown SCV? As long as there is a need to produce workers, there is a need for Calldown SCV. Hopefully Overcharge does not feel too brainless. Both it and CB has some decision making involved in it. Later in the game, it can be important to use Overcharge on the right structures to produce the units needed. But on the other hand, BW had a braindead maco mechanic built into it - select only one structure at a time. But each braidead clicking also resulted in a quick decision - what do I produce in this structure?
On the other hand zerg gets an absolutely free lunch in the Queen with no downside to it relative to in BW. Thus, this is creating a zerg-favored dynamic relative to BW.
Perhaps should it get an energy activation for its attack, or something else. To make it less superior, if needed. (As has been suggested.)
Dirtybag has also pointed out that terran loses production time by having to upgrade to tech lab's, which can have a decent impact of the early game.
But it was the same thing in BW for Factory and Starport?
Wait, what? I thought overcharge would replace Calldown SCV. I thought it was soo cute and clever. You get to produce two scv's OR two combat units. Now you chose between eco or macro!
Both ways work:
- Either SCV Calldown + Overcharge on Barrack, Factory, Starport. T can now boost econ or army production.
- Or Overchare that works on Command centers too. The same spell boosts econ or army production.
So its two ways to reach the same goal. I would prefer to keep Calldown SCV, mainly due to all utility that ability has. And it is quite fun. (IMO)
One of the tricky aspects of chronoboost is that it's not functional as a production mechanic in most cases because, say, building one additional gateway is equivalent to having perfect mechanics throughout the entire game. It's mostly useful for upgrades and specific timings for important units like the colossus.
If you make the OC mechanic overly strong you'll get mass orbitals in late game as a replacement for actual production buildings, but if you make it too weak it's no longer discriminating. It might be a tricky balance.
Good point.
Yeh, me Dec and Dirty also discussed the idea of buffing Chrono on gateways only (if that's possible). So it could be 50% on forge, stargate, robo, upgrades, nexus, but 100% boost on Gateways.
That is possible.
Another concern regarding macro mechanics, how can we make so boosting worker production is NOT the superior way to use CB and Terran macro energy? Like, if you don´t boost workers, you get far behind. Less effect on workers?
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Queens are 150 minerals. Not a 100% free lunch. They are not worth that as a fighting unit.
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EPT
