EPTI'm all for the macro mechanics being used on either economy or production but I really want for the Scan requirement to be changed.
[A] Starbow - Page 435
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Jawra
Sweden146 Posts
I'm all for the macro mechanics being used on either economy or production but I really want for the Scan requirement to be changed. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
That is why suggested making the reactor drop supply based rather than unit based. This will easily limit the abusability of saving reactors for things such as Tanks or Science vessels, instead of using them for Marines and Vultures. Boost production of 4 Marines or 1 Science vessel... what would you choose? Boost production of 1 Marine or 1 Science vessel... Yeah one choice is obviously better. I don´t think the ability can check for supply. This is basically how Terran "drop-down-one-time-reactor-ability" has to work: - Use the ability at the OC to target a production facility. - that structure gets a buff that lasts an unlimited time. - as long as this buff is on a structure, the structure can produce 2 units at the same time. - when it starts to produce 2 units at the same time, the buff "knows" that a double production has started. - as soon as one of the doubled produced unit finishes, the buff is removed. The other unit who already was in production remains where it is. (It does not loose any time.) So it is basically a one-time-reactor that is removed after it has been used once. The practical problem is if you already have a unit in production that is almost finished. Lets say your Marine has built 18 of 21 seconds. You have other units in queue. You drop a reactor on the Barrack. Ohh bad luck! The other Marine will start to produce simultaneously. But as soon as the almost finished Marine is completed, the buff will be removed. So you only saved 2-3 seconds in production time. (If you instead used this ability at the start of the production cycle, you would save much more time.) This ability will be much stronger on higher tech units. If you use it on 2 Marines who just starts producing, you save 21 seconds of BT. If you use it on 2 Battlecruisers, you save ca 100 seconds of production time. Or if you produce 1 BC and 1 Viking, then the buff will be around for ca 100 seconds. Thus you can produce 2-3 Vikings while the BC is being built. Compare it to Chrono boost , Nurturing Swarm, Inject who are always constant and as effecient, no matter what you use it on. (Although it can be bad to use CB just when an upgrade is almost finished. Or use Sbow Inject when the Hatchery already has 3 lava. And Z has no resources to use on those larva.) I am not super good at the editor though. Maybe there are other ways to make this ability work more smoothly. But it just comes down to this fundamental question: Should all races have an APM-demanding ability that can boost both army and worker production? (So we get some kind of skill barrier in macro.) If yes, then Terran needs an ability in this area. (Since Calldown SCV only boosts worker production. Reactors are automatic and do not require any APM) Another approach can be to make Reactors require APM and focus from the player. T must go back to his base, select a Reactor, click on a nearby structure to boost it? (Preferably in a meangful way) | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
I think a more interesting angle is to create a layer of mechanical optimization that you can take advantage of for already existing design. A good example would be the ability to boost worker mining by giving certain manual commands: you can always return to manage your base for this purpose, but it will not alienate new players because it's not artificial difficulty they have to overcome before they can play the game, as is the case sometimes with the macro mechanics now. (of course it depends on how significant the effect is) Maybe there is some potential in the reactor vs tech labs aspect, perhaps switching should be encouraged more? I think if somehow you can constantly ask the player: "is my reactor/tech lab configuration correct?" the best players might become known for clever optimizations. I don't know how to achieve this though, perhaps you could allow the two add-ons to transform into one another with a sixty second build time and a small cost? I suppose the latter suggestion doesn't really answer the question of what would be a good apm sink though. and I do like my idea for calldown scv being replaced by 'improve scv' tbh.  | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The balance for reactors vs tech labs is that with the former you can only create weaker units, allowing you to boost the tech labs defeats the purpose of this division. It might be possible to make a "calldowned reactor" only boost certain units. If a structure has this buff on it, no tech lab units can be built or queued. Hm, I think it can work. and I do like my idea for calldown scv being replaced by 'improve scv' tbh. Atm I look mostly for a way to boost Terran unit and worker production via macro mechanics, APM, focus in the base. Both SCV calldown and improve SCV boosts workers only. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I am almost afraid to suggest this since I might be the one .... | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Cause it seems like Terran will have the strongest one? You obviously will have to buff both CB and inject alot. I see no problem with this. Now we are talking impact, will it be good or bad for gameplay. Will it fuck balance? Try it in testmap, see if it is fun | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
1) Merge goliath with the valkyrie. - gound mode, works just like the goliath. - Air mode, works like the valkyrie from broodwar. Can shoot air only, good against light. When he shoots, he needs to fire all his missiles, makes him stand still for three~ seconds until he can move. Missiles are not instant, makes mutas, scourges fine/good against this. Requires micro from both. - The airmode(valkyrie) have reduced stats from broodwar since his cost is reduced. - In starport, he starts in the air mode - From factory, he starts in the groundmode - Increase his cost slightly(works for both modes), 125/50/2 <- Only 25 additonal minerals(Maybe even not necessary) - Requires an upgrade to unlock the "transform" ability. 2) Ground mode(goliath) He do 2x1 in groundmode(right now he do 1x1) Buff his attackdamage 25explosive damage(armored) -> 18.75 vs medium -> 12.5 vs light The intention behind this is to make him a big threat to dragoons. In this however, a relevant buff to medium units and also against zealots since they will take 25damage on their shields. 3) Air mode(valkyrie) - Zero base armor - Adapt the other stats, with the new cost Destroyer http://postimg.org/image/qpuhg0r0z/198974e3/ Best model i could found in the map editor. Not to bad though. A new protoss unit(replaces stalker) He can move up/down cliffs, to compete with the new mobile goliath. Hover unit 1) How his attack work: He has an autoattack which needs mana to be used. - 50mana to use his autoattack - He regs 50mana every two sec to a maximum of 100mana. (Can use a small burst if he have maximum mana) His attack is range seven, 20explosive damage which bounces three times 100%/50%/25%. The bouncing do not hit hovered units or burrowed - Against armored units his attack do 20/10/5. - Against medium units his attack do 15/7.5/3.75 - Against light units his attack do 10/5/2.5 If you amove this unit, he will when out of mana move forward. Every time he is gonna attack, he stands still in place before and after the attack to encourage even more micro. My highest priority with this unit was against terran mech. - Good against the new goliath and clumped up siegetanks - Good at harassing structures(bad at harassing workers) - Hopefully can be fun/good to use against other units such as terran marines, zerg hydra etc, with micro from both sides 2) How you make him, and stats - Builds from robotic, unlocks with robotic support bay - 50/150/2 unit cost, 44Build time - Armored unit 140health, 50 shield Roach *Would like to see him different from hydralisk, and have him as the zerg concept: Swarm of units, micro involves alot about movement. 100/35/1, close to hydra in cost. 110hp, 2 attackspeed (More than double from hydra in speed) Slower movementspeed than hydras - Do lower damage to armored units than hydra - More damage to light units than hydra - More about burst *Range 2-3 Different from hydralisk five range. Weak against archons while hydras good against archons. Harder to reach critical mass since much shorter range. *One base armor: Better in small numbers against zealots, and worse in higher (opposite of hydras) Reduced damage from marines, hopefully makes marauder a better choice. Burrow while move ability: - Able to use him as an "core" harass. If wholes are to be found - Able to get close to siegetanks - Used in battle, to take out key units - Moves faster while burrowed - Takes no splash while burrowed Armor type: Armored. Weak against dragoons(opposite of hydras) Summarize Terran - Will use Goliath, vulture, tank as core units against protoss. (Right now, goliath is used as an AA purely in tvp) More starport openings, which will mean more dropplay.In both tvt and tvp. - Can "Punish" heavy dragoon openings - Alot more tactical/strategy with the new goliath Protoss - Will use zealot, dragoon, destroyer as core units against terran. With the move up/down cliffs on destroyer, we might see some new tactical/aggressive play in pvt - Will have to build more than just pure dragoons in the opening(more variation) Balance problems - May have to change the cost of the robotic facility - May have to nerf the reaver (would like to see this unit in general less deathballish even without these changes) - May have to reduce 10shield from zealot, and give 10 to health(against the new goliath) If the new destroyer unit for protoss becomes very good. May have to nerf the arbiter(which for the record he already is btw) If terran abuses their mobility with dropships and flying valkyrie, protoss have the option to add in corsairs which are good against units with low armor Mech play in general against zerg, has never been an problem. Zerg will have to use abduct alot more. And Hydras are still good against the new goliath. Lings are and will be costeffective still against new goliath. Every armor of ultralisk reduces damage from goliath by two. How to make this work - Get the unit testmap to work - Have the players try stuff while you do irl stuff kabel - Have a bit of patience, when there are so nice stuff made already. - Ask dec and xia for help | ||
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Zaphod Beeblebrox
Denmark697 Posts
That unit would be a nightmare to balance, being both good at fighting a lot of ground units, great at anti armored air, and great at anti mass air. Its basically a warhound+goliath+valkyrie in one unit. Destroyer: Bad name, but I guess its just hard to come up with good names for Protoss (Hint, they are mostly based on historical military groupings). Apart from that the concept isn't too bad, but it really just is too much like the Reaver. I can't see a place for a unit like this in the Protoss lineup. Roach: I have said numerous times that the Roach is a great unit for the wrong race. It just doesn't fit Zerg very well. Good ideas to make it fit in better though. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Here are remaining things to do in Sbow: - Macro mechanics - Viking - PF? - Adjust the Stalker/Dragoon/Immortal dynamic - Sentinel and spells - Warp gate? - Viper - Guardian & Devourer - Roach - Fix bugs and improve things like Spider mine, Carrier micro (if possible) The Roach you describe Foxxan, is almost what we already have in the test map. Its the opposite of Hydra, and it intends to have the unit relationships you describe. So I agree with you on that. I am looking at different ways to make the micro of it more interesting/fun. Any ideas? Feel free to invent potential spells for Sentinel and Viper. The main problem I have with those units are: - Safeguard is quite lame and is not required anymore. (Not the way it works.) It was added at a time when only Stalkers were in the game, and they were not that good vs armored units. So Safeguard was a way to "balance" P vs mech. Now it is instead really broken. - Breed will not be required if the Roach is in the game. (Since it basically spawns a Roach.) - Abduct is a deathball spell. The more units you have in the army, the stronger is Abduct. With no unit support, Abduct is useless. I would prefer if Zerg had a snipe spell that worked outside combats as well. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
@safeguard Any idea how u want it? Or possible to redesign it completely? Something that is needed, i know that ofcourse. Summoning a moon from the sky would be no thanks @Abduct Never thought about it as deathball before, you might be right there. So right now, viper feels a bit lame(so does defiler also to me), ensnare and abduct. Not really any countermicro or counter against these spells at all except the scienvessel but that unit is "counter" to everything biological(zerg) | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
The Roach you describe Foxxan, is almost what we already have in the test map I see no testmap around. Last time i checked this unit out he had 160hp and was 2 supply I am looking at different ways to make the micro of it more interesting/fun. Any ideas? Hard to have any ideas when i know 0% about him. I take it as he has changed since i last saw him I have done it for over a year. Tried a lot of new units and new concepts. Otherwise I will never finish this game. I know what you mean, but have you ever been this close before? With the mod as good as now? You have great "support" around you. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
@safeguard Any idea how u want it? Or possible to redesign it completely? Something that is needed, i know that ofcourse. I am open for all kinds of relevant ideas for the Sentinel and for the Viper. I will not work with those units right now, mainly since I focus on macro mechanics atm. (I am working to get the "reactor-calldown-spell" for Orbital command to work. Just to see how it will look and feel.) But potential ideas are always nice. Summoning a moon from the sky would be no thanks : D @Roach & Testmap Ah, the testmap is down. I think the Roach should be in the normal Starbow unit tester now. (The stats might be a bit off since I have not tried him so much vs other units.) Edit: No, the Roach is not in the Unit tester. It does not work properly. : / I know what you mean, but have you ever been this close before? With the mod as good as now? You have great "support" around you. I have just been quite bad at setting a direct goal, or boundaries at what I do. Just overall quite inefficient. When I started this, I created completely new units, abilities, structures and a lot of crazy stuff. It was hard to balance. But that did not matter that much since I never thought people would care that much about this. But as more people got involved to follow the "development", I felt I had to be more realistic and actually make the game playable. Then I floated around for a long time, trying stuff, doing this, doing that. Most of it comes down to knowing nothing about anything when I started. Then I have realized new aspects worth to consider. Which means I have replaced old stuff cause I thought it was bad design/balance/boring/flawed/shit. Much of it is also due to the feedback I have received from many of the better players. In fact, without good players and so much support, I would have given up a long time ago. A few months ago I was like "Ah damnit, this will never end." I decided to go a lot more for BW, and just make a fanmade version of a potential BW 2. And so far it seems to have paid off. I think the game is better now than before. But ever since I started have people told me to not do anything more. "Now Sbow is perfect." But I have changed stuff anyway, mostly because I thought that process was quite fun. But now I am quite tired of it and just want to finish this game asap. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
To bad you are tired of it kabel. With good design on starbow i believe the game could reach very high literally. Even as an potential esport even. Have you thought about giving away the leadership to someone? | ||
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Deleted User 97295
1137 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
To bad you are tired of it kabel. With good design on starbow i believe the game could reach very high literally. Even as an potential esport even. Have you thought about giving away the leadership to someone? Just to make myself clear: Its not that I am super tired and just pukes when I think about Sbow. Its not like that. ^^ I just feel like I want to complete this game. Not walk anymore in circles. And it could have been completed a long time ago if I just had better focus and goals. And not being so shattered. But it is also combined with my lack of time. Since I work so many evenings per week, it is hard to be online when people usually play on EU. Which also leads to some missunderstandings sometimes - players have one view of the game and potential problems, while I have another view that is not as updated. I have given it away two times in the past, mainly due to time constraints. Danko was the Sbow boss for some weeks ca 1 year ago. Then Xiphias & December was in charge of Sbow for 2 months during April & May. Then I came back when summer started. It might be that I have the final word, since I am the uploader. But I don´t consider this game my own effort. Many of you are involved. Dec and XiA have done huge work in the editor. Xiphias has done great work with the economy. Lots of important ideas come from many in this thread. And important feedback aswell. So I will stay around and finish the game as well as I am capable of doing. As long as other valuable persons in the project remain, so will I. Then the game will be as good as it will be. Thats all I can do. @Laertes Oh, I did not interpret Foxxans words like that at all. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
I do believe through that the Perdition turret would be an alright replacement for both the planetary and the Firebat. The firebat by itself btw is still very limited in use and is leaving Terran with an overloaded Barracks. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I do believe through that the Perdition turret would be an alright replacement for both the planetary and the Firebat. The firebat by itself btw is still very limited in use and is leaving Terran with an overloaded Barracks. T should have a method be able to fight hordes of Lings, especially out on the map. It is an important tool for the BW balance. Peridition turrets gives him that option in a stationary way. Just as a Bunker or Spider mines. The Firebat is however quite limited. It will probably only see play vs Z. But it still gets the job done. One could ofc add Hellbats instead. I do fear that it would affect PvT too much, and truly make mech the superior option in all match-ups. Plus the Factory already offers an anti-light unit: The Vulture. The Barrack is loaded with units now. (Six). One more than the Gateway, Starport and Stargate. It might be a little bit ugly. But I still think this is the easiest solution. | ||
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