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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:05 Foxxan wrote: Can you please explain why you assume one mineral = one gas when tanks get +2, they three shot immortals I thought it was +1, but I guess I forgot to take into account that Dragoons already start with one armor (?). | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
dunno what redudant means, cant even get that word up in dictionary, however gas is important in early obviously because without it you cant make dragoon at all. I heard its generally 1=2 Sometimes i heard its 1=3 Reason= You mine more than three times the minerals than you collect gas I thought it was +1, but I guess I forgot to take into account that Dragoons already start with one armor (?). Its a nerf u have to considder. Dragoon always died from three hits no matter upgrades Makes no sence if you thought this even, big nerf to toss. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
dunno what redudant means, cant even get that word up in dictionary, however gas is important in early obviously because without it you cant make dragoon at all. Redundant* Basically, look at your PvT games. Usually you have excessive gas which means that it isn't particularly valuable. I acutally think gas is more valuable in Sc2 than in Sbow. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:33 Hider wrote: Redundant* Basically, look at your PvT games. Usually you have excessive gas which means that it isn't particularly valuable. I acutally think gas is more valuable in Sc2 than in Sbow. Ye after a while if i go zeal/goon the gas gets high. If i however would go more tech i for sure needs alot of gas. In the beginning though, gas is very important always for protoss. If the player decides to go goon/zeal/obs, yes gas has less effect but only after a while like midgame. So if the player decides to go more tech, he needs the gas alot. So i really think 1:1 is very wrong for protoss | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
The Dragoon with pure BW stats, which we use on the normal Starbow maps, is the only Protoss unit needed vs everything Terran can do in the early game and early mid game. Just as in BW. Dragoons counter: Marine, Marauder, SCV pushes, Reaper, Tank, Vulture, Banshee pressure and harassment. Get enough Goons and you defend vs everything Terran can do early. In Starbow, T has more fun harassment and pressure options compared to BW. But it does not matter since P only needs the same type of unit anyway to defend vs all of them. One unit to rule them all. Build Dragoons, micro them properly, and you defend vs everything. Less mind games. Less build orders. Less diversity. Less advantages and disadvantages to exploit. If we get this: Vulture, Reaper, Banshee = can punish heavy Dragoon/Immortal play (depends on what model we settle on) Marauder, Tank = can punish heavy Stalker play And vice versa if P goes offensive. It leads to more army management, more micro, more macro decisions, more build orders, more variation, more importance of scouting, more ways to react to what type of army the enemy player has. Assuming both Stalker & Immortal/Dragoon are unlocked at the Cyber core. Assuming both units have advantages and disadvantages in terms of stats. Assuming they together stay quite close to the Dragoon balance in BW, in mathematical terms. If we get this, I think we will go beyond TvP and PvP in BW and get potential for a better game. Thats why I struggle with it in the test map. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On September 20 2013 07:49 Foxxan wrote: Ye after a while if i go zeal/goon the gas gets high. If i however would go more tech i for sure needs alot of gas. In the beginning though, gas is very important always for protoss. If the player decides to go goon/zeal/obs, yes gas has less effect but only after a while like midgame. So if the player decides to go more tech, he needs the gas alot. So i really think 1:1 is very wrong for protoss Its a weighted average of early and migame though. IN early game, yes then you wouldn't mind being able to delay your second assimilartor a bit more. However, when you already have them up and running it is super easy to get excessive gas and there are periods in the game where you wouldn'd mind trading minerals for gas. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
The Dragoon with pure BW stats, which we use on the normal Starbow maps, is the only Protoss unit needed vs everything Terran can do in the early game and early mid game. Just as in BW. We should be a bit careful with these type of statements untill we have much much more games played or simply tested them in the unit tester. Also remember that in the game Dirty played vs the new guy, skipping stalkers entirely was actually the correct decision (theoretically) as the new guy was way too light on vultures. In the games I played vs Dirty, Immortals did admitelly perform a bit too well, but we haven't played any games since the new damage change and I believe the games could have looked quite differently if vultures tanked another shot from Immos. But I don't think the real problem arises untill later in the game, where the exensive Dragoons/immortals simply get too good when they pack them selves together. In terms of the ealier midgame, I still believe that some kind of timing attack with relatively heavy vulture (maybe two reactors on factoreis) will perform better than it did in BW. Also, I am not a fan of the kind of dynamic where you just absolutely get owned if you don't mix in Stalkers. It should feel more like a slightly suboptimal decision if the opponent plays correctly against you, and some times it takes time to figure out how to do that, thus I believe in general we should be a bit careful with conclusions based on a couple of games. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I believe this is actually too early a conclusion to base on so few games. We should wait with these types of conclusions to we have much much more games played or simply tested them in the unit tester. Wat? The Dragoon is the supreme choice vs all of the above listed units. That should not be a suprise. We have the BW balance. As in BW, Dragoons are the prime unit needed vs all types of early Terran aggression. Here they can also catch Reapers, Banshees and kill Marauders too. Protoss has no other alternative early than Dragoons anyway. Ps. I do not talk about the Test map. I talk about the normal Starbow maps, where Dragoons have normal BW values and Stalkers are on Twilight tech. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On September 20 2013 08:06 Kabel wrote: Wat? The Dragoon beats all of the above listed units. That should not be a suprise. We have the BW balance. Ps. I do not talk about the Test map. I talk about the normal Starbow maps, where Dragoons have normal BW values and Stalkers are on Twilight tech. Sorry about that. My bad. I agree with that post. I think I also need to find a VOD of Jangbi playing toss from yesterday where he just spent 80% of the time being occupied with the BW mechanics. Having only a Dragoon in the game IMO makes the skillcap a bit lower than having Immmortal + Stalker (when we get them right). | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
Its a nerf u have to considder. Dragoon always died from three hits no matter upgrades Makes no sence if you thought this even, big nerf to toss. One extra hit (33% HP buff) is a gigantic advantage for a unit that now only costs 25 minerals more (12% more). So it does actually add an extra element to the game (upgrades matter now). On the other hand it is not that good in terms of damage vs tanks as it previously was (that's kinda the real nerf with my suggested changes). However, I don't really think that the +2 thing is going to be relevant in most games. +1 though would have a noticeable impact and I am not totally sure about what the correct values are. As I said I would like to spend some time in the unit tester. But basically, when I tried to figure out which damage values to give this cheaper Dragoon/Immortal, I saw two altnernatives; 1) Maintain the 6-shotting of tanks, but make tanks 3 shot kills Immortals. 2) Maintain tanks 4-shotting Immortals (no upgrades), but Immortals now require 7 shots to kill a tank. I thought the latter would be the better option, but it is possible I am wrong. The former definitely rewards focus fire to an even larger degree for both players. The downside to that is it probably would be a bigger nerf to Immortals than the latter and battles would end more quickly. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Early game for protoss, pure dragoon, sometimes mix in some zealots with prism. Overall dragoon dominance. Not hard to "fix" this for protoss, to let him have more variation. Its after that phase it gets really hard, If toss needs to have a shitstalker against tanks, and dragoon better against it and at the same time they have varied power against the vulture Terran will just dominate protoss macrowise. So instead of focus so much energy on immortal/dragoon, we could use that energy for the sentinel, the viking. These two units can change tvp alot. Maybe after a while we see something that fixes more variation for protoss or if we get lucky on the way it fixes itself. Another road to walk, is have dragoon. Its simple and works. But look at another combat unit for protoss that is not dragoon version x | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
In terms of openings potential: - It is good vs vulture/banshee openings. - Bad vs Tank heavy/mauruader openings. So it kinda depends on what you expect your opponent to do. I personally like that type of dynamic and from my experiences this seems decently balanced atm. But when that is said, the introduction of the roach allows us to buff the Stalker vs mech a bit (if it really is neccesary - again this requires time spent in the unit tester. I think subjective evaluations are difficult at the moment since it is difficult to properly assess the strenght of the Stalker/Dragoon while also taking into account the cost discrepancy of these units) as long as we tweak the maurauder and the roach on the other side (this will maintain balance vs zerg and a decent viability of bio). Clarification on less expensive Immortal/Dragoon Its not like I think we will get awfull balance if we balance the more expensive Immortal by changing its stats a bit and maintaing cost. But overall, I believe that we will get a bit closer to BW'ish balance with cheaper Immortal, and then I am also a bit sceptical when I see these super strong Dragoons being much stronger than BW dragoons. I guess that I slightly prefer the idea of having a unit that kills stuff a bit slower and instead is slightly more massable. Watching 13 dragoons vs 10 tanks feels better than watching 10 Dragoons vs 10 tanks (not really sure whether that's rational logic though). I guess that's due to my preference of watching less expensive more massable units taking out siege tanks rather than tanks fighing other units at a similar cost. So I guess it is a combination of these two elements that makes me want to try out the cheaper Dragoon (then we can also keep the Dragoon-animaiton I guess - otherwise it will just be too confusing for new players). One could ofc consider to have exact similar cost for Dragoon as in BW (125/50), however I also kinda like the idea of a Stalkers being 25 minerals less expensive than BW Dragoons and Immortals being 25 minerals more expensive. Makes the math-thing very simple. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
How many different units/models are in the editor? Can we get some information overall about this? Stuff that is good to know to the "creative apartment"? if i decide to think about stuff, and it ends with "cant happen, no models", you know? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Open the Starcraft editor. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/waOy58Z.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jwjJCqj.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hdi6SqI.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ewcFFjK.jpg) When you have done all this, place the units you want on the grass, then click on File - Test document. You can also check out models, skins, icons etc made by fans: http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/ I recommend those peoples work on SC2mapster: http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/SoulFilcher/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/profiles/GhostNova91/ http://www.sc2mapster.com/assets/dark-protoss/ If you want to find the "hidden" models in the editor, you can do like this: When you are in the editor, click on F7. This opens up the Data editor. It is in here I, December and XiA tear our hair in frustration. All data for every unit, spell, ability, effect, model, animation, icon, sound can be modified in here. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TGrQLwj.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AoZMFZt.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/tKkTjuP.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qRTFJ3a.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jHA3wYH.jpg) + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yYr5ouM.jpg) Try to search for "Fatty" to find an unusal Zerg model ^^ Rumor says it was the alpha version of the Infestor This can be a bit tricky if you have never used the editor. Let me know if you encounter any problems. Keep in mind that I will most likely not do any major changes to Starbow, like add a load of completely new units. But I shall never say never. Gl hf ^^ | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
So I previously argued that bio should be viable against protoss in the opposite way mech is viable against protoss. With mech you are immobile but cost effcicient, thus I believed bio should be mobile but cost inefficient against protoss tier 1 + tier 2. This will give bio map control and reward drop play quite a bit. However, implementing that is quite challenging due abilities sech as medi healing, matrix and the tech cost related to getting out dropships. Thus, bio (ignoring ghosts for now) is a unit compostiion that does farely well vs protoss untill AOE abilities are out - assuming you could have the similar amount of stuff out. Previously protoss could simply outproduce the terran player due to the free chronoboost and the cheaper and faster produceable sentinels. However, with recent changes to those units/abilities, I think production capabilities today are more similar. The problem with bio being able to fight straight against protoss in the midgame is that there is little way for a good protoss player to seperate him self in terms of cost efficiency compared to a weaker protoss player vs bio. Zealots, Stalkers, Dragoons, Immortals are all not really that practical to micro vs bio (ok you can pull your immortals back if they gets focus fired - that's kinda it though). This means that bio is kinda cost effective due to medi healing untill AOE is out. Thus, I always believed that protoss vs bio should primarily be about multitasking rather than micro in the midgame. Otherwise a protoss player would have too fast tech to reavers every single time a terran player opened bio --> lame games. However, recently I thought of a very simple change that I believe can make micro and straight up fight with bio vs tier 2 protoss skillful for both players; Give Sentinel Phase Missile and remove Scout. This is quite an important change as it makes Phase missile much more accessible for protoss. Thus protoss now has kinda a skillfull of reducing the efficiency of medi healing, and thus can fight straight up much better against terran bio. The "design flaw" of relying on Scout for Phase Missile is that Scout is quite expensive (and thus mostly a later game oriented unit), and since it is such a good all round unit we can't just reduce its cost. The Sentinels inefficiency in real battles + lack of AA means that we can make this unit more accessible in the early game than the Scout. Vs air armored units protoss should now rely on Immortals, and thus I would argue maintaing the Scout in the game is quite unnecesary. We can also look to tweak Phase Missile a bit if it is too powerfull on such a cheap unit as the Sentinel by making it avoidable like Seeker Missile or redcing its casting range a bit. Warp tech suggestion I don't think the "I only get warp gates"-style should be as viable as the "gateway only" or "mix of gateway + warpgate"-styles, but I still like to see it once in a while as it makes more protoss playstyles viable. At the moment though, I think its just way too weak. Since warp tech already is handicapped by not being able to warp in Immortals, there is IMO no reason for it to be doublehandicapped by slower production. The major flaw of warp tech previously was that it was too strong both defenisvely and offensively. IMO I want to maintain the majority of the previous offensive strenght (as long as it doesn't come early game), while still making it quite weak defensively (which a warp in time of +10 seconds for zealots and stalkers accomplish's). Below are some of the variables one could tweak to make it better in the "correct way". - Give it to protoss for free once you build a templar archieve. - Slightly reduce warp in times of zealots, stalkers. HT's should warp in at the same speed as in Sc2. - Make warp tech produce units at a similar speed as gateways. This will require a 12 second reduction in production cycles for all units. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
If Phase Missile is on the Scout, P gets a way to punish mass EMP play. (Since Scouts have no energy and can not be countered by EMP.) If Phase Missile is on the Sentinel, Vessels can shut down every Protoss caster who has potential to harm or disable it. (HT, Arbiter, Sentinel.) If we remove Scouts from the game, Protoss has even less ways to punish mass Vessel play. Especially if they are clumped up together with the deathball, so neither Stalkers or Dragoons can reach them. But yeah Sentinel and its spells indeed needs a second look. (Especially Shitguard. That spell drives me insane. I am playing around with some alternative versions of it.) @Warp Gates Warp gates & Gateways have same build time on units. They´ve had for quite a while now, like 1-2 months. The major nerf is that it takes 12 seconds to warp in stuff though, instead of 5 sec like in SC2. But this is due to how powerful Warp gate is at shutting down smaller harassment. In BW T could punish Protoss army who was out of position, by harassing where the army was not, since it was quite hard to move the Protoss army between bases. With 5 sec warp in time, P always gets defence up in time anywhere he needs it to shut down Vulture, Banshee etc. (I know you do not argue against that Hider, I just clarify) Ofc the current values on Warp gates might not be perfect. But I don´t think Warp gates are too bad in Starbow. They are just underused since they are higher up in the tech tree. And its still a really powerful ability for Protoss. @Test map I will update the test map today with some minor changes. As usual will I continue to explore Stalker/Immortal/Dragoon thing. Keep in mind the normal Starbow maps have the balance described on the Wiki. So if you all get fed up of the test maps, you can play the normal, more stable, Starbow maps. Wiki: http://starbow.wikia.com/wiki/Starbow_Wiki I will fix some bugs also. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
If Phase Missile is on the Sentinel, Vessels can shut down every Protoss caster who has potential to harm or disable it. Hmm I actually think Phase Missile on Sentinels would be way too much in favour of Sentinels vs Vessels due to range advantage. Thus, small tweaks should be made to make SV vs Sentinels a balanced dynamic. But if that adjustment is made what is the issue here? Then SV vs Sentinel becomes a micro duel rather than one unit hardcountering another unit? Ghosts vs HT works in that way. I would acutally argue that the fact that you can't EMP scouts just feels counterintutive at the moment as it leaves no downside at mass spamming phase Missile. With Sentinels there are opportunity costs to using Phase Missile (less energy for other abilities) which makes it more interesting IMO. SV's are less powerfull vs protoss than they are vs zerg. Vs zerg irradiate some times feels like a "one-man army", while EMP vs toss in general has less impact on the game. Yes ofc some times you hit a big group of HT's or EMP an Arbiter before it Stasis, but overall it feels like less of a neccesity vs toss than vs zerg. Thus, if anything it makes more sense that zerg has a harder counter to SV's than protoss. My only (minor) issue of giving Sentinels Phase Missile is that it will have so much utility vs both bio and mech that not getting it will be kinda dumb. But that's also why I suggest we should tone down both Phase Missile and Safeguard a bit. The major nerf is that it takes 12 seconds to warp in stuff though, instead of 5 sec like in SC2. But this is due to how powerful Warp gate is at shutting down smaller harassment. Yes my suggestion is to reduce the time you have to wait before you can warp in by 12 seconds for all units. This way production comes at a similar pace and the major downside to warpgate is that you can't warp in Immortals. I really don't think the current double-nerf (slower production and no immortal) is needed for Warpgate as long as it doesn't shut down harass. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
Well right now the scout has no other use than "counter sv" right? The sentinel however, should we focus more on giving him a more core role for protoss? Since his spells is quite fun, and for sure can be improved. He works in opening, midgame, and lategame. Compare to scout. He works only against sv, but do it even? His cost is rather high. So he can cast one spell every 60sec, than he is useless. Thats kinda boring design for me atleast. Kabel have you thought about my spells i suggested for him? They were not topnotch probably. I wanna see him work to give the protoss ground units a little bit more firepower to fight more cost effecient than they do against critical mass of mech of terran. Maybe even bioforce of terran. And against zerg also. Protoss units are rather cost ineffective compared to zerg units and terran. And i wanna ask this, have you consider to make reaver only for pure harass unit? I mean nerf him alot. Than give some new cool robo unit for toss that can fight well? @scienvevessel emp Hmm, in broodwar when he cast emp he had a more delay than he do now right? Was not nobrain to use it, were rather hard. Same for statsi for arbiter, it was also quite a delay. Like he stood still for 2-3 seconds, in this time, goliaths could actually shoot him down if they target him before he casted it. Two very lategame spells that do alot, should be hard to cast? They have such an impact on gameplay overall in tvp | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
They involed the BW dragoon and the Stalker and the zealot vs vulture + tanks in various numbers. All tests were made made with toss having 41% more army value and some scenarios were tested multiple times. Some interesting observations; - In open field you want a lot of vultures relative to tanks - Even with Stalkers 6-shotting Vultures (they five-shot vultures in newest patch) they perform roughly similar in terms of cost efficiency vs Dragoons vs heavy vulture + some tank compositions when A-moved. - The best outcome for protoss was obtained when you went heavy stalker + light on Dragoons (with zealots as buffer ofc) and then blinked small groups of stalkers on top of tanks after most of Vultures have been killed. If you blink all stalkers at the same time they clump up too much. These findings are quite positive as it definitely makes it seem that Stalkers have a role in the matchup. I also expect that with Immortals instead of Dragoons, the reward of getting Stalkers will be even higher. Its also nice to see that optimal blink micro vs mech requires skills rather than a big group blink. One should, however note that these findings inflate the value of Vultures relative to tanks as you often times won't fight in an open field, or at least when you fight in an open field, scale will likely be a bit higher than in my tests. So further testings are still required. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
Hmm, in broodwar when he cast emp he had a more delay than he do now right? Was not nobrain to use it, were rather har I think radius was larger n BW (at least it looks that way). | ||
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