|
Interesting blog post about BW and SC2 unit movement:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=429573
Go read it when you have time, and don't feel intimidated by the WoT.
He brings up several interesting points that we have implemented a SC2 engine version of exept for one crucial aspect - Chokes and ramps.
We have focussed so much on high ground advantages that we missed the simple fact that narrow chokes in BW were a pain to attack into, mostly due to the pathing issues. High ground miss chance helps, but the pathing really does the trick here.
Dec - Is there any way to make it harder for big units to move through chokes, ramps and sim city walls without messing more with the gereral army movement?
|
On September 19 2013 20:12 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Interesting blog post about BW and SC2 unit movement: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=429573Go read it when you have time, and don't feel intimidated by the WoT. He brings up several interesting points that we have implemented a SC2 engine version of exept for one crucial aspect - Chokes and ramps. We have focussed so much on high ground advantages that we missed the simple fact that narrow chokes in BW were a pain to attack into, mostly due to the pathing issues. High ground miss chance helps, but the pathing really does the trick here. Dec - Is there any way to make it harder for big units to move through chokes, ramps and sim city walls without messing more with the gereral army movement?
I just finished reading this blog. It is amazing. But I dont know how we can implement such bad pathing for ramps in sbow 
|
awww i was about to link to that blog too
well, we used to have a pathing system that caused Jaedong Jams, but everyone seemed to hate it. (the only change was units couldn't push each other, i think). We could change it up a bit and only make it so smaller units can't push bigger units, or something like massive units are unpushable. meh. not sure if it's needed.
|
On September 19 2013 14:31 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2013 14:01 Xiphias wrote:
Please fix fast dec. Nice find! Also, immortals (confirmed) and dragoons (?) (and maybe other units?) deals absolutely no dmg to high ground whatsoever. I need replays and times. Has anyone tried replicating this and making absolute sure it is the case?
I searched forever trying to find it on my stream VOD's, but it was on your stream Dec. LOL!
At around 13:00 minutes. Immortals not dealing high-ground dmg.
http://www.twitch.tv/decemberscalm/b/463313089
|
|
|
I just finished updating Protoss in the wiki which means that both Zerg and Protoss are now updated. Of course, there may mistakes here and there that I'm not aware of, but let's hope 99% of it is in order 
Not sure if Kabel has finished Terran or not?
|
On September 20 2013 00:31 GamanNo wrote:I just finished updating Protoss in the wiki which means that both Zerg and Protoss are now updated. Of course, there may mistakes here and there that I'm not aware of, but let's hope 99% of it is in order Not sure if Kabel has finished Terran or not?
GOod work .
|
Updated the test map. (Not the normal maps!)
- Stalker & Immortal values are now fine tuned. (Both units should now have more clear strengths & weaknessess vs different units, while still not breaking the BW balance.)
- I use the Dragoon instead of the Immortal. So we have Stalker + Dragoon, but the Dragoon just has Immortal-stats.
- Ghost cost increased to 50/100 (from 25/75) Not as massable anymore.
- Abduct range lowered from 11 (!!) to normal 9.
- Bug fixes by December!
Since it is a test map, I decided to try a thing I´ve had on my mind for a while:
(And there has been a discussion about it too. So lets try it!)
+ Show Spoiler +Zerg can now build Roaches. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OfH1Ffr.jpg) - Requires a Roach structure. That structure requires Lair. - Good life. - Short attack range. - Decent movement speed. - Deals good dmg vs medium & light units, but not as good vs armored. (The opposite of Hydras) Can use a burrow ability: - Burrows and becomes much faster. While burrowed, enemy units only deal half damage vs them. When the Roach unburrows, enemy units do not attack it for the first second. Which means the Roach gets the first shot. This burrow ability lasts up to 7 seconds. (Then it unburrows himself.)
What is the point of this?>>> + Show Spoiler +It is a test map so I can do whatever I want aha aha ha h aa haha a ha!! 11 11!
Some people, including myself, have thought Zerg feels a bit poor with only mass Hydras as the core unit. Kinda as many of you seem to feel with Dragoons as the only true core unit for P. It feels lame in the SC2 engine with only 1 massable kind of unit that takes care of almost everything.
Since the Roach has short range, and is quite clumpsy, it is not good in deathballs like Hydras are. Instead its better to flank with them. Due to moving fast while burrowed, they might be an ok harassment tool. Or capture enemy units. Unburrow and snipe stuff. Or soak up damage when assaulting stuff. Or serve as meat shields in front of Hydras,
Vs P - Can take good care of Stalkers, Zealots, and absorb damage from Storm & Reaver. (Better than Hydras do)
But they are vulnerable to Archons and Dragoons. Especially since Stalkers are now good vs both Zerglings, Hydralisks and Mutalisks, Z might need another unit who can punish heavy Stalker play.
Vs T - Good vs Marines, Vultures, can with the burrow movement thing maybe be ok to support Hydra attacks into mech positions. Gives the Marauder a more important role.
Vs Z - Still an unexplored match-up.
Ofc this is by no means perfect. The stats and the ability is just a first attempt so we can try how this unit feels in the context of Starbow and the BW balance. Maybe can it, after some fine tuning, help to lead to more diversity and "deeper" match-ups. Maybe not. The first step is to try it and evaluate if it is something worth to continue to improve.
Again, this is only for the test map.
Ps. The Roach structure is really ugly atm. I just use it for testing.
|
Not sure if Kabel has finished Terran or not?
I shall double check. I might have something small left to do. Otherwise should the stats in the wiki correspond to the actual stats on the normal Starbow maps!
|
yesssssssssss ROACH mwahaha
|
Ahh!
Cool with roach man
It is a test map so I can do whatever I want aha aha ha h aa haha a ha!! 11 11!
i laughed
anyone play now?
edit:
can you fix the unit tester? The new one you uploaded yesterday. It dont work at all
|
yesssssssssss ROACH mwahaha
Only for the test map ^^
Aahhh I love the concept of a test map. People are angry at me because I change stuff too rapidly. But if it is a test map, the point of a test map is to test things! You can never get me aahaha ah ah ah a ahh
Ps. I uploaded another test map, since almost everyone yesterday only played on the test map anyway. And it was lame to only test the same test map. Now we have some variation.. and soon everything will be test maps! ! : B BBBB
can you fix the unit tester? The new one you uploaded yesterday. It dont work at all
I can´t get it to work. For some reason, no units can be placed on the map. Everything looks exactly as the normal Starbow Unit Tester, yet it does not work. I have PMed JohnnyZerg about it, since he is the one who takes care of the normal Starbow Unit Tester. Hopefully he will reply soon so he can inform me about what I am doing wrong.
i laughed
Glad to make you happy ^^
anyone play now?
I will be online soon at least. Should have worked tonight, but it got changed.
|
Roach stats, for reference:
Cost: 100m/50g/2f/33s
160 HP
1 armor
2.5 movespeed / 3.0 while burrowed (can burrow without upgrade)
Damage: 16 all / 12 armored 1.5 Weapon Speed
Range 3
They 3-shot workers -
1 roach vs 1 hydra: Roach wins with 80hp left. (50%)
1 roach vs 2 hydras: 1 hydra survives at full hp
3 roach vs 1 Ultra: 1 Roach survives with 80hp
|
Burrow burst only lasts 7 seconds. Then there is a short cooldown before they can burrow again.
This is just the first version. We are playing now on EU to see how it feels.
|
Funny actually thought about roaches the other day. Zerg atm could perhaps use a burrow-oriented unit unit with a decent HP.
Since the Roach has short range, and is quite clumpsy, it is not good in deathballs like Hydras are. Instead its better to flank with them.
Not sure though about this. Doesn't that just mean that it becomes easy to a-move roaches + hydras as roaches autotmatically gets into the fron where it soaks up the damage?
Roaches to me still sounds like boring in comebat (it doesn't offer anything Hydra's doesn't in terms of micro), so its "harass-role" needs to be quite fun. But nevertheless, I kinda like it is as it offers zerg a bit more differenaition from BW.
Regarding the Stalker, I hope that it its relatively mediocore damage vs light is maintained, as speedlings still need a role in the matchup.
|
|
|
Unit test map unit tester can not be tested.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/HsrXdPG.jpg)
Any idea?
|
Tweak to Immortal/Dragoon stat values.
I think I discovered an uninteded conseuqence of the current vesion of the Immortal/Dragoon. The fact that it is more expensive (and more valuable) has two effects on balance I believe;
1) Makes them a bit less vulnerable to splash --> small effective HP buff vs Tanks
2) Increases their effective "group" damage --> If the same value of BW Dragoons attacks into a place as the same value of "new" Dragoons/immortals, then the latter group will deal more DPS --> DPS buff vs tanks and vultures. In BW it is more likely that you will have extra Dragoons in the back of the group that aren't attacking. Since you now have fewer (but stronger) units, all of them are more likely to be able to attack at the same time.
I think the latter problem can be solved by reducing max range from 6 to 5, however I think a better solution is to reduce cost to make it 150/50 instead. This means that Stalker is 25 minerals less expensive and Immortal is 25 minerals more expensive than Dragoon. Damage values gets adjusted accordingly then.
One other advantage of this change is that it makes it feel more "natural" to new players who doen't expect these Sbow Dragoons to have so much more damage than BW dragoons.
Stats of the Immortal/Dragoon
Current values
- 30 damage vs armored --> 6 shots tanks (tanks have 1 armor)
- 15 damage vs medium --> 6 shot vultures
- Attack speed a bit slower than previously
Previous damage values
- 28 damage vs armored
-16 damge vs medium ( which I suggested we reduced to 14).
- Slightly faster attack speed
With new cost, Dragoon cost (assuming 1 gas = 1 mineral) is reduced from 225/200 --> 11.25% cheaper
Sum up of problem
These stats seems okay as it actually gives a clear role weakness to the Immortal and opens up a role for the Stalker. However, I believe that Immortal packing them selves together makes them a bit OP in medium to larger numbers. Nerfing their DPS (and maintaing its cost) is likely to make them unnecesarily weaker in smaller groups --> which means it then becomesa a deathball'ish unit.
A lower range could accomplish a similar thing, however it may have other consequences on the game in other ways, and besides I think it is important that we me make the game as intuitive as we can for new players (as long as it doens't hurt the gaming experience).
New suggested damage;
- I suggest we go back to the previous level of attack speed as I believe it will make these new values a bit easier to balance.
- 25 damage vs armored. In terms of DPS this is 12% less. It now requires 7 shots to kill a tank --> 17% more. A dragoon In BW 8-shotted tanks. With +1 this Sbow Dragoons will 6 shot tanks.
- 12.5 damage vs medium --> DPS is 12% lower than the 14 damage I suggested. It takes 7 shots to kill a Vulture compared to 6 previously --> 17% increase. A BW Dragoon took 6 shots to kill a Vulture.
HP/shield is currently 100/130. New suggested values: 85/130 --> Tanks still takes 4 shots to kill them. Vultures need 24 shots to kill it = same value as Dragoon takes to die.
Overall, I will argue this is a nerf to the Immortal vs mech. Obviously when unit tester gets up and running we can get a chance to test and reifne these numbers a bit more. The roach addition actually could make life a bit easier for us as it allows us to potentially buff the Stalker vs mech (if its neccesary) without making it OP vs zerg early game.
Sum up
- This new Dragoon will be slightly more intuitive for new players as it is less powerfull
- It will have "less group DPS" + more vulnerable to splash than the current Sbow Dragoon. Still slightly more than the BW Dragoon.
- It will have more HP vs tanks per cost than previous editions and also more effective HP vs tanks than BW Dragoons for only 25 minerals more. On the other hand it will also be slightly slower at killing tanks than previously (still faster than Dragoon though). Target firing tanks is still heavily rewarded though.
- It will cost 25 minerals more than BW dragoon but die to same amount of vulture shots.
- It takes an additonal shot for a Sbow Dragoon to kill a Vulture than a BW dragoon despite being 25 minerals cheaper
- Relative to Dragoon, it is still more specialized vs armored.
|
Can you please explain why you assume one mineral = one gas
when tanks get +2, they three shot immortals
|
On September 20 2013 07:05 Foxxan wrote:
Can you please explain why you assume one mineral = one gas
Gas is kinda a redudant ressource in the early and midgame, so I don't think its particularly more valueble than minerals. But really, whether it is 14% or 9% cheaper doesn't really matter that much here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
