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On September 17 2013 17:15 Foxxan wrote:
I wanna mention this, i gave some thoughts to how blizzard did sc2. If we look at terran bio versus protoss = protoss needs aoe or he die horrendous in bw.
Bio were not availabe for terran at all.
In sc2, it is the same thing here = no aoe for protoss, he dies. But bio is available here.
So he needs colossous or hightemplar or he have no chance. Pvt in sc2 is kinda very bad but its not that blizzard failed that hard if you look at the surface.
Though, they could have had skipped the ghost vs templar duel, what would have happened if they did?
Would ghost and templar be even more dominant? Maybe they would.
What would have happened if they skip colossous = cant take damage from air? Would colossous be even more dominant?
Look at the reaver, if the reaver is well protected in a big armee, its very hard to reach him if you do not have a long range unit like the siegetank for example.
SC2 storms are much worse than BW storms and EMP is a binary spell...
Still, the Templar v Ghost dynamic is one of the better ideas that could have been so much better if done right (more dynamic EMP would fix this).
The Colossus is a direct strategical and gameplaywise downgrade from the Reaver. It has removed or downtoned all of the mayor weakpoints of the Reaver and only added the arbitrary weakpoint of "can be hit by AA". Since the colossus has basically no weakpoints exept cost, buildtime and the existance of counter units, it NEEDS to be gimped in the direct strengts of the unit (Colussus attacks are much weaker than Scarabs). The Colosus can't miss, doesn't pay for each shot, has great mobility and can stand on top of your army. Even with its downtoned attacks, it still dominates everything, and requires counter units to not be massively OP.
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I wanna mention this, i gave some thoughts to how blizzard did sc2. If we look at terran bio versus protoss = protoss needs aoe or he die horrendous in bw.
Bio were not availabe for terran at all.
In sc2, it is the same thing here = no aoe for protoss, he dies. But bio is available here.
So he needs colossous or hightemplar or he have no chance. Pvt in sc2 is kinda very bad but its not that blizzard failed that hard if you look at the surface.
Though, they could have had skipped the ghost vs templar duel, what would have happened if they did?
Would ghost and templar be even more dominant? Maybe they would.
What would have happened if they skip colossous = cant take damage from air? Would colossous be even more dominant?
Look at the reaver, if the reaver is well protected in a big armee, its very hard to reach him if you do not have a long range unit like the siegetank for example.
I think Blizzard will be more willing to experiment with larger changes to exicisting units in LOTV than they were in HOTS. During the majority of the development of HOTS, WOL was still during relatively well. It was first untill the latter half of 2012 that it was obvious for everyone that something was really wrong with the game. But now that most matchups are kinda boring in HOTS (TvZ is fun but very onedimensial), I believe they will be willing to experiment with larger changes in LOTV. Personally, I would recommend that they try out this type of stuff;
- Collosus can't be targetted by AA. It is then nerfed in other ways.
- Ghost supply increased from 2 to 3 --> This will nerf the bio dealthball late game vs toss, which IMO are incredibly boring for both players + spectators.
- Siege tank receives a big late game damage upgrade. Something like this;+15 damage vs everything, + 15 damage vs shield and + 15 damage vs massive. This upgrade will require fusion core which means that Siege tanks won't get good during the 2-3 base period (as it will make turtling too strong with the current econ). Opening bio into mech is now a much stronger option for terran vs protoss.
- Warp in time increased by quite a bit --> This will make harassplay from terran + zerg a bit stronger.
- Mule nerfed a bit --> This means that fast inbase 3rd are no longer the dominant playstyle for teran players. Instead, they will be more rewarded for getting out battleoriented units --> increases action. It also is a nerf to the mass OC late game turtling style.
- Ultralisk buffed --> It is now much better vs MMMM --> Rewards mech late game transition (tanks are now much better vs massive units)--> This makes broodlord viable in the late game --> which then makes raven play a good option = Much more diverse gameplay.
- Immortal changed a bit.
- Planetary redesigned to replicate Sbow solution.
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Yes, sc2 needs to get looked at quite heavy in upcoming exp/Patch and colossous has no weakness other than air attacks.
The dps is equal to reaver even.
My point was, would bio even be possible without a weakness that the colossous have?
Anyone wanna play?
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On September 17 2013 22:23 Foxxan wrote:
Yes, sc2 needs to get looked at quite heavy in upcoming exp/Patch and colossous has no weakness other than air attacks.
The dps is equal to reaver even.
My point was, would bio even be possible without a weakness that the colossous have?
Anyone wanna play?
No I don't think so. Collosus would probably need a lower max range than 9 then.
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I upload a patch with some bug fixes.
hallucination units are immune to damage
I played around with it but could not solve it. They take no damage from unis with different attack values vs different armor types. For example Dragoons, Hydralisks, Tanks etc. Probably because those attacks are built in a special way, so they always deal full dmg vs shields. For some reasons Hallucinations take no shield damage.. I have to talk with XiA or Dec about this.
The spidermine bug completed(?) = If many spidermines hit a unit, not all did damage
Can you be more precise what the problem is? Do you mean that many Spider mines are close to each other, unburrows and then kill each other as soon as the first mine explodes? Cause it was kinda the same in BW. It was better to spread them out over a larger area.
@Wiki
I have now edited (almost) all Terran units, structures and upgrades so they have correct values.
http://starbow.wikia.com/wiki/Starbow_Wiki
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I'm up for playing / casting tonight. Will come online about 8 pm ish. HYPE! 
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Can you be more precise what the problem is? Do you mean that many Spider mines are close to each other, unburrows and then kill each other as soon as the first mine explodes? Cause it was kinda the same in BW. It was better to spread them out over a larger area.
I didnt know they could kill eachother o_o
anyway, what i mean is three spidermines hit one dragoon, receives only damage from one
More values
I have some more of them. Still want them?
Pylon 300/300 hp/shield
archon 30damage
darktemplar 125/100 min/gas 40damage +3 every upgrade 80hp 40shield
protoss shield upgrade 200/200 - every upgrade increase by 100/100
Terran marine/marauder range upgrade - 150/150 min/gas
Arbiter 100/150 min/gas, 10damage range 5 - Statis is 3x3 area, and a bigger delay before he casts the spell, like three seconds. Also the recall is more than 12, i dont know excactly the number, it says 5x5 area.
Statis 100 energy , recall 150. Just watched a vod it seemed recall can teleport around 25units or something. This was many zealots included.
spidermines still dont hit stealth without detection
The detection of static defence is wrong.
Cannon - range 7, detection range 7 to. Now its 10+ or something, i think it is across the board like this
Just to be more clear: The detection range is more than the range of the staticdefence attack. It should be equal across the board
Cannon attack, range 7 - same range on detection
Turret the same, the spore doesnt say so but i assume its the same there also.
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Quick thoughts on the role of the Viking
I think Dirty mentioned it before that it could be a problem that terran has early acces to Vikings which means they easier can deal with packed mutalisks --> zerg can't drone up like they did in BW.
I agree with him that this is a viable concern, and I suggest we try some new damage values. To be more specific, I think the Viking should be;
- A bit better vs arrmored units.
- Lower damage vs light and medium units.
- Its upgrade should increase its movement speed to the level of Mutalisks. Range upgrade removed.
Then I also have a suggestion for the Devourer. It should have a single target ability that makes it possible to cancel spells/abilities that affects friendly units (such as Irradiate, Plague).
Consequences for gameplay
- You can get Vikings out vs Mutalisks, but they deal quite low damage to vs them. So if you go bio, your probably better off skipping vikings and getting more Marines out and teching to irradiate. If you go mech, you have two choices vs Mutalisks;
1) The old-fashioned Goliath + Iraddiate style.
2) Getting out alot of Vikings + speed upgrade means that you can kinda secure map control in the early midgame which allows you to kill overlords and makes vulture drops stronger for instance. Eventually, however the zerg can outproduce you with Mutalisks, but due to the speed of the Vikings you can retreat home with them. The weakness of this style is that you will be quite vulnerable to heavy hydralisk play if the zerg doesn't produce Mutalisks.
As the game progress's, it is more likely that the terran will transition to the Goliath + Irradiate style. But here comes the interesting part; The zerg can now morph Mutalisks into a mix of Devourers and Guardians, which with good micro, can minimize the impact of Irradiate. Thus, terran should probably transition into Vikings now as Guardians have a range + terrain advantage Goliaths which makes Goliaths in low-mid numbers weak vs Guardians. Vikings, on the other hand, should do better here with the suggested changes.
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I just finished updating all the stats for zerg units and buildings in the wiki, so hopefully everything there is correct now.
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Just some fast thoughts. Also, the new beta program blizzard released, you can make new models in it and some other yber stuff, someone competent tried it yet?
Dragoon/Stalker/Immortal?!! <-- Buagaahashahhahahah
Keep the dragoon. Make the stalker/immortal a semi/combat unit that is not dragoon version x.
A new unit.
How can we solve so Probes are able to scout vs Zerg with Queen? (It was crucial in BW to scout for Hydra busts etc)
Make hallucination on the nexus, for a relatively cheap energy cost.
This can have two benefecials,
1) Toss do not need corsair versus zerg
2) Remove hallu from ht, replace with something more fun
Is the economy accurate enough?
According to lalush, no.
The third worker dont do much. Which is very needed.
Also, the fast expansion + fast double eco boost. This is a possible problem.
The one that do not make fast expansion himself is either all in or need to expand fast himself.
What if he cant scout, or something. What if he needs to make combat units or else he die. Always behind, iam looking at pvt right now atm. Protoss cant go gasless exp because of reaper and possible potential marauder push, so he need 1gate dragoon opening.
He gets behind, toss in economy because of eco boosters at it.
This is theory and some playtesting at the same time.
Are the macro mechanics (Inject, Chrono boost, Calldown SCV, Reactor) balanced enough?
One thing i think terran misses, is faster/better macro mechanic. The reactor is cheaper, thats all.
Zerg have inject which gives more units
Toss have chronoboost on production, which gives also more units.
Economy wise, if they are balanced. I go for the doubt of the benefit and say no.
Is it unfair that queens can be produced, and at the same time make drones?
While toss, terran cant?
Right now in general on one base, you never upgrade for toss, terr.
Planetary Fortress?
I want it gone. It removes one important aspect of broodwar/starbow = No units to defend.
150/100 for a very good defence is a nobrainer.
The scv repairing makes it impossible to kill almost.
Everyrace can go heavy staticdefence except terran, because they have bunkers. But still, for toss and zerg it costs plenty of resources, is a big decision and can be defeated.
Vikings vs Mutalisks!
Well yes, its way to hardcountered to mutalisk for a small price.
However, i wanna talk about viking more in general. I would like to see him be used with transform alot more, even make it "viable" = as a semicore unit in some particular matchups.
One thing i gave a thought, is if it is possible. Give the goliath the transform.
He works like he do on the ground just like he do now.
In airform, i dont know how but if its gets done right it would be pretty cool to see him versus protoss more, and zerg if terr goes mech.
Even tvt.
Not thought alot about this, dont know stats yet on air for example.
If goliath dont work with modelthing, focus on the transofm from the viking, atleast i would like that. The viking initself is not needed, right? Terr goes mech versus zerg, now he can harass with this unit.
Maybe even against protoss the viking could be made so he can use it in an "effective" way, not an "gimmick way"
One thing that popped up in my head abit, a speedbost just like the medivac, but harder to use.
Like he uses it, moves very fast. Thats one option, very simple.
The other one is when he use it, he moves very fast but after his boost is done he cant move. The spell also speeds his transform faster which should be relatively slow, around five second atleast.
Imagine some dropplay from terran, now combine with this. This could turn into a very viable option. However, if this
would get in the game and work, protoss need something against it (like the sentinel). Zerg would need some love to.
We dont give zerg so muhc love atm
Sentinel at Stargate or Robotic facility? What to do with it?
The stargate is kinda dead without the sentinel, scout is ineffective already, even with manaburn i will assume.
I would like him on robotic though. Since robo is very needed in pvt. In pvz also needed.
For observers mostly. So with him on robo, here is another potential scouting against zerg that revolves around a bit more aid in combat, might remove the need of corsair versus zerg.
There are so many things that can be done around this unit
I would like to see the sentinel more of the part of protoss as a combat unit. Not through autoattack.
More in line of a spellcaster.
Manaburn from scout, to sentinel. Work versus scienvessel and the viper, even the defiler.
His safegaurd, a redesign. A spell that targets around six allies, they receives less damage. Like 75%, maybe 50%.
For a few seconds, or for a few shots each..
He can move while he casted it.
Note that its kinda a fast thought i have around this.
This way, protoss doesnt need aoe for criticalmass as much, and against terran mech he do not need arbiters or old safeguard.
Right now with safeguard in present, from what i have observed. It works wonders when protoss face low numbers 10, 15~, but when he faces more higher numbers i dont think he can use it cost effecient because of critical from siegetanks.
Reason i want a spell as i suggested is to reduce the need as is now for aoe against critical range (hydras, marines) or arbiter for criticalsiege.
Or an old idea of mine.
Shotremover
35mana
Used on: allies or caster himself
effect: blocks the next damage or single target spell
The idea behind it, is against abduct and the siegetanks. To give some more power to protoss ground units.
Also against reavers in pvp. Hmm would probably not work well against tanks actually, still a cool idea to start with.Would like to try some spell like this for protoss. Maybe on the ht instead of hallu?
Possible to give some ideas, for those to get impmented in near future in testmap?
Like a new ability, and stuff(?) In like days or around one week.?
Oh, iam quoting my self here btw...could get a bit confusing..no?
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I think there is a bug with Dragoons sometimes missing a shot. Below is an example at 30:46 where dragoon shots doesn't damage the mine.
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/b/462852464
EDIT: I think what happened there was that the observer just moved out of range which meant mine didn't take any damage.
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I updated the basic stats of Protoss units now, so not that much left.
I noticed that attributes differences in damage dealt by certain units are written differently in the editor now, so hopefully I haven't made any mistakes.
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Bug detector, at your service
I did this in the unit tester which is not 100% updated, some values are wrong here and there.
Found some major bug.
I think most go hand in hand.
Dragoon, as hider said did not hit the mine when he shoot it.
I have seen this before, where many dragoons like 10 shoots a goliath, and they shoot two rounds each, the goliath takes no damage.
Once when dragoon were on a cliff, and the goliath were down.
Also once when goliath were on the choke while dragoons were ontop. I may have felt this against mech sometimes other than this.
The other bug which goes hand in hand i think is the aoe.
I tested mutas against the sentinel sphere spell, i planted two spells so they should hit at the same time, the mutas received only damage from one of them. I tried five of these spells, this is 125damage total, mutas have 120.
They ended up having like 50hp, i assume not all hit at the same time here.
I tried two archons versus mutas, i tried to hit at the same time, were a bit harder maybe i failed in that regard but it seemed they took full damage here.
Ok, mutas against corsairs it seemed odd right, i think people agree on this so i tried mutas against corsair, its as not every muta take damage from the aoe. I clumped them up with the new ability even, also if the cors hit at the same time they receive only damage from one. This was more unclear, but something along this way
Ok, the spidermines, this is the same thing, if they hit at the same time or close to each other unit only take damage from one spidermine
About the sentinel sphere, is it intended that the spell trigger even if you shoot it at long range.
In unit tester, its not even possible to attack the sphere once it timer is done, "need detection" or something it says when u attack it when timer is done
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Btw, I don't think reaver splash damage kills scv's in one shot. I think it did this in BW (?).
@ Maurauder/Firebat
Without the Immortal/Stalker I think the maurauder is quite bad for the gameplay balancewise. Right now you need to do a gateway/geyser --> get out Dragoons asap build to be safe against Maurauder + Scv pullsl
In Sc2 you would be able to pull probes as a response here but you cant do that in Sbow due to the Maurauder switch mode. Basically, this creates quite an assymmetry I believe where terran is a lot stronger early game than in BW.
At least with the Immortal/stalker in the game, the maurauder has a decisionwise purpose (bad vs immortals, good vs stalkers), and where its role differes from that of Marines. At the moment it just leads to unnecesary strong timings.
Vs Reapers I discovered a build that at least lets me do a nexus before geyser build as long as I have two chrono's ready for pumping out Dragoons when cybercore is done. So while that opening also gives terran an advantage relative to BW, its not quite as significant as the maurauder-all in threat (because I believe I would die to maurauder + scv pull with that opening).
So to sum up, keep the Firebat, remove the maurauder (if Dragoon stays).
@ Ghost
Ghost at 25/75 with 100 starting energy is the most broken thing in the game. At the moment it doesn't have any really counter micro since retreating with slowed Dragoons isn't really that efficient. Something like Vulture + Ghost builds are from a theroetically POV absolutelly unbeatable (Ghost takes out all the Dragoons and Vultures takes out the zealots) and for that to be changed the Ghost must not be particuarlly efficient vs Dragoons.
Thus, I suggest its cost should be changed significantly to 75/100 and starting energy should be 50. Hopefully this will give it a more clear role as taking out big expensive units rather than core units like a Dragoon. If that makes Ghost to be UP (in general), I would consider to just buff its stats a bit as a response.
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"So to sum up, keep the Firebat, remove the maurauder (if Dragoon stays)."
I 100% agree here, but I really hope and wish the immortal / stalker combo gets back instead. IF they do, the "firebat mode" of marauder needs to be an actual firebat with large splash and melee, so it can fire under DS and actually deal with lings effectively.
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On September 18 2013 16:09 Xiphias wrote:
"So to sum up, keep the Firebat, remove the maurauder (if Dragoon stays)."
I 100% agree here, but I really hope and wish the immortal / stalker combo gets back instead. IF they do, the "firebat mode" of marauder needs to be an actual firebat with large splash and melee, so it can fire under DS and actually deal with lings effectively.
I think Kabel will make a unit test map with those units. I suggested it had the following differences relative to the current state;
- Immortal + Stalker damage as a suggest in my post 2 weeks ago.
- Hydra HP buffed by 10
- Scout removed
- Sentinel start with Phase Missile (it would be prefered if we could make this avoidable like Seeker Missile is).
(I would also like Warp prism speed at 3 with no upgrade instead and Sentinel damage at 6 vs medium, but that's less important for now).
Consequences for gameplay
- Stalker + Immortal micro with a bit of target firing + a bit of blink micro will basically repliciate the strenght of a Dragoon.
- Protoss is now much stronger early game vs zerg --> allows them to fight for map control, rather than tech to AOE on 2 bases. Zerg gets compensated with more buffy Hydras.
- Zerg is a bit better in a straight up fight vs mech with Hydra's (less neccesity of Dark Swarm). If this makes mech OP, it can quickly be changed by buffing tanks vs medium.
- It also makes hydras better vs bio which is probably good for diversity.
- It makes it possible for protoss to fight straight on vs bio with the usage of Sentinel. At the moment I believe AOE is quite needed for protoss as medi healing is quite strong. With easier access to Phase Misisle, protoss tier 2 is now buffed vs bio.
- Sentinel openings become better vs zerg since Sentinels with Phase Missile can take out Queens.
- Immortals are the AA vs armored (instead of the Scout). Its possible this makes BC kinda pointless in the matchup (which they probably already were), but 1) its not a huge deal and 2) It can be fixed by tweaking/redesigning Yamato cannon if it really matters that much.
- Protoss drop openings are buffed.
- Sentinels overall, may be a bit too strong vs mech. However, I believe that is fixable (if the concern is real) by changing Safeguard to reducing damage over 8 by 75% instead of 100% over 10. This is probably needed as Safeguard was indirectly buffed after Siege tank attack cooldown was increased from 3 to 5 when we went over to BW values.
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Some thoughts on the 60HP scvs in BW, and why it probably isn't needed in Sbow.
- In Sc2/Sbow you can block off with suply depots which makes "scv walls" less neccesary.
- Auto-repair can potentially make scv + mech pull timings stronger than in BW.
- Scv's attack smarter than in BW.
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I really do like where the Marauder brought us in TvP. As much as you may hate it, it was the most progress we have made for Bio for months.
That being said I agree that the design of the transformation is incomplete. It can't be instant, we will never get good balance on that. I really think we need to have a casting time on it. But Kabel haven't had luck implementing that through.
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@marauder
If it is to big of a problem in tvp, there are some quite easy fixes here actually.
1) The transofm = none-instant.
2) Increase the cost and the stats
Now if protoss scouts marauder, it gives him more information since terran have already done relevant investment into that unit.
3) In with firebat, but keep marauder as is. Terran will have to choose marine/marauder/firebat/medic.
This way, probepull works, scouting gives valuable information , more macro decision.
Things to play around with also is give firebat more presence than in bw. Could be fun to go dragoon micro vs a stronger, more costly marauder
Marauder = stronger versus aoe than marine, stronger early presence against mechanical units
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EPT
