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On February 16 2009 10:13 TechniQ.UK wrote:
For example muslims in heavily persecuted countries where Christianity is basically outlawed, have had conversion experiences where they've had dreams which were about a man in white which they often later find out is Jesus a bit like a Damascus road experience with the apostle Paul. God will move heaven and earth to save one sinner.
i seriously doubt every single muslim has had a christian god related dream
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also, the conscience isnt always right. study psychology, you'll always have strong mental resistance to challenging the established norm, but that's what got copernicus, galileo, newton, etc to defeat the incorrect established physics of aristotle. i'm not saying they werne't christian, but how do you differentiate when a mental resistance is appropriate "conscience" to prevent sin and how do you know when mental resistance is actually wrong? there's that mob mentality of the stanford prison experiment where perfectly normal and well-adjusted students became complete monsters, and psychology attributes this transformation to the prototype of the prison guard and doing what feels "correct" in that regard. how were they supposed to know that that particular feeling of "correctness" was completely wrong and amoral?
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I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
Of course not everyones conscience is the same, it gets softened towards sin as it's commited more and more and the person gets into deeper and deeper immorality.
As for the prison experiment yeap ive heard about that before, but i'd simply say it was human wickedness revealed just like with the nazi's. At the end of the day one must remember that average nazi's who killed jews and such and I don't mean hitler youth I mean grown men who we're not raised in nazi indoctrination, grown men ridiculing jews, eventually killing jews and supporting the killing of Jews I mean yes hitler was a great speaker and the top level nazi's have great responsibility but I mean the average german who applauded the actions of hitler not even out of fear and the german soldiers/ss soldiers who took part in the killings of Jews on the ground and the rounding up of them and over looking of them in the camps, so many people say they we're all hypnotized and totally reject any responsibility of the people involved which I think is just self-delusion really.
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
then what happens to the ones that don't, aren't sinners by nature but maybe committed a few sins in misjudgement and are unable to 'correctly' atone by way of the christian god's forgiveness?
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
On February 16 2009 09:55 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Thankfully salvation is of the Lord and he hasn't left it up to corrupt mankind to choose or reject him.
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Mindcrime
Both are completely unrelated, im talking about free will in terms to commit rape in one case and free will and God's sovereignty in terms of mans salvation in another.
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
One of the chief evidences of someone who can be saved is that they actually realise their sinful or hopeless or empty state, and go looking for God. Instead of prideful self-sufficient athiests who love their sin and want to stay in it and deny their wickedness and instead go as far as to say God is not real to justify it.
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On February 16 2009 10:32 TechniQ.UK wrote:
Mindcrime
Both are completely unrelated, im talking about free will in terms to commit rape in one case and free will and God's sovereignty in terms of mans salvation in another.
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
but you admitted yourself that not all muslims would have this dream
god
does
not
seek
every
single
individual
there's not a single record of the christian god in south africa or east asia before christianity historically got there via other people, and even if there were 1 or 2, there's no way that the millions of chinese/japanese/korean/southafrican each had a personal experience with god and an opportunity to stop sinning
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I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
For example the story with pharaoh and Moses, you see God several times sending Moses to see if pharaoh wants to repent, and turn away and be saved and save his nation, God does not do it in a bad and anger filled manner but does it by sending Moses in humility to honestly ask Pharaoh to repent in real kindness several times. You don't think God could of just as easily blown Pharaoh to bits and set the Jews free instantly?
So by God acting in kindness several times, pharaoh kept on rejecting him and every time Pharaohs heart was hardened.
It's like the gospel preacher, perhaps the nicest guy you ever met, he comes up to you and he says "son, now im saying this because I love you, your on your way to hell but theres a way to be saved and it's Jesus Christ he died for you" and you ridicule him or ignore him by a choice of utter free will.
or perhaps a family member, who shares the gospel message with you in love and tenderness and you again reject the free offer of salvation presented to you.
If you accept it you will be saved but you simply won't even though it is a sincere free offer of salvation, you'd rather stay with your way of life because you love to exercise free will to sin.
So don't blame God for that. Don't cover up your guilt. God's offer is to all men, but they simply won't come so he works to get them himself.
If anyone wants to come to Jesus they may come and be saved and that's even valid in calvinism.
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On February 16 2009 10:23 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every muslim had it but many do.
Mindcrime go and read the part i put about the rapist again and think your own thoughts please instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
Of course not everyones conscience is the same, it gets softened towards sin as it's commited more and more and the person gets into deeper and deeper immorality.
As for the prison experiment yeap ive heard about that before, but i'd simply say it was human wickedness revealed just like with the nazi's. At the end of the day one must remember that average nazi's who killed jews and such and I don't mean hitler youth I mean grown men who we're not raised in nazi indoctrination, grown men ridiculing jews, eventually killing jews and supporting the killing of Jews I mean yes hitler was a great speaker and the top level nazi's have great responsibility but I mean the average german who applauded the actions of hitler not even out of fear and the german soldiers/ss soldiers who took part in the killings of Jews on the ground and the rounding up of them and over looking of them in the camps, so many people say they we're all hypnotized and totally reject any responsibility of the people involved which I think is just self-delusion really.
it's not self delusion, it's human nature. it feels more "right" to go with the flow than to challenge it.
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On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
then there are people who are completely destined, without fail, to go to hell? millions and millions, if not billions?
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also the fact that you're claiming that all atheists love sin is simply ridiculous. "god is not real" is not a justification of sin, it's one of the possible explanations of all the contradictions within support for god. ptolemy tried to slightly modify aristotlean physics to make it still work, but copernicus/newton/galileo threw them out and got the right answer.
aristotle = bible
ptolemy = each denomination of christianity (or even judaism and islam)
copernicus/newton/galileo = agnosticism/atheism
ptolemy could've been right, but he wasnt
each denomination could be right since they're all tweaks of the same basic concept, and i'm not saying that all of them HAVE to be wrong, but if one of them is right, then the others have to be wrong, and adhering to one is like playing the lottery
not a very good chance
EDIT i never adopted atheism in order to justify anything, i was born into a godless family that i feel is still basically moral, and i never felt any need to ask any god for forgiveness. i've always viewed god as one possible explanation of the universe rather than an entity needed to absolve myself of sins i don't feel i truly have. you could call this denial, and you probably will, but the fact that different moral sets exist, even within different sects of "god-worshippers," like the kosher diet of orthodox jews or complete pacifism vs non of christian sects proves that sin seems way too subjective to be absolute. the fact that god doesn't actively mediate every argument on what constitutes sin means that you could be just as wrong about sin as you claim i am.
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On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
so the percentage of individuals worth saving in africa and east asia just happened to be a millionth of what it was in the christian world, and suddenly shot up when christianity reached them?
isnt that nifty
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oh youve gone even further off the deep end
As for you uhh tuna. Every sinner is born with a sin nature, they don't want to give up sin, seek God or stop sinning.
Thats why God must seek them and he does.
On February 16 2009 10:38 TechniQ.UK wrote:
I didn't say every single person can be saved anywhere did I nor did I say God seeks every individual?
you said god was fair and just
in these quotes you say
A. everyone is born with a sinners nature, that they dont want to give up. so god must seek them out
B.god does not seek every individual
now if EVERYONE is born evil and does not want to give it up, but god only chooses to save some of them, how is that fair or just?
One of the chief evidences of someone who can be saved is that they actually realise their sinful or hopeless or empty state, and go looking for God. I
you pretend to address it here but you said before that everyone born with a sinner nature (and according to previous posts everyone is born with a sinner nature) does not want to give it up.
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On February 16 2009 10:13 TechniQ.UK wrote:
As for your whole scientific arguments against God and using that as excuse to remove the guilt of sin from yourselves. How about the 300+ prophecies for filled by Jesus that were written hundreds of years before his birth?
How about the prophecies he did not fulfill? You know; many of the ones the Tanakh says that the messiah is supposed to fulfill.
Returning all Jews to Israel
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
-Isaiah 11:12
The dead will rise
But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
-Isaiah 26:19
the ruined cities of Israel will be restored
And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.
-Ezekiel 16:55
Weapons of war will be destroyed
" 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up—the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.
-Ezekiel 39: 9
Jews will know the Torah without needing to study it
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
-Jeremiah 31:33
EDIT: But I'm sure he'll do those things "next time" won't he?
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yeah it's not a fucking scientific argument agianst god in order to justify sin, its a scientific argument against god because we want to learn new things about the universe, and when we do, we question theology's explanation of events that science has given evidence against. in fact, many christians now choose not to accept parts of the bible literally, such as genesis, but as simplified metaphor of how the earth literally formed. evolution isn't an enemy of christianity in general, it's an enemy of the literal interpretation of genesis. every scientific observation that disagrees with an instance within the bible isn't an argument against the whole of the religion, but when so many holes are punched within the bible, a scientist has to question its source and adherents, and ask for explanations consistent with both scientific observations AND theological principles
dogma is the greatest enemy of reason, and as someone with a very scientific mindset, perhaps my most dogmatic belief is that dogma needs to be destroyed
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Look the line between God's sovereignty and free will is a really really confusing one but at the end of the day following the principal that "all who will may come" is true both of Calvinism and arminianism and I don't want to get into predestination and all the rest of it anymore.
You can sit here and have theories about heathens in africa 2000 years ago and harden your hearts that way or you can sit here with a humble heart and ask yourselves, do I need a saviour?
If someone wants to come to God the Calvinists will say it's an act of God's sovereignty and the Arminians will say well amen another sinner chose God. and both will rejoice. You think I want you to go to hell? No I love all of you but I can't love you if I don't tell the truth.
God desires all sinners repent and turn to him so that they might have life.
For example in Ezekiel
Say to them,As I live, declares the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?
Whosoever cometh unto me I will in no wise cast out.
In the gospel God commands all men everywhere to repent and to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ
Jesus accepts EVERY man or woman who repents. I'm not going to argue over theology about who can and cannot repent anymore, at the end of the day, repent and believe and you will be saved, if not and you reject the gospel call then well have fun you chose your own fate.
Like I said I'm a moderate Calvinist. I believe the gospel is open and can be effective to everyone but you simply will not come and I would beg all of you reading even today, sit down and really consider it, forget about your religious past growing up or whatever and complicated questions like "am i elect or predestinated or did i choose God" save that for a few weeks after your saved.
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You can sit here and have theories about the condition of the heart and arbitrary 'sins' that you feel we need to repent for and harden your heart that way or you can sit here with a open heart and ask yourself, would i like an explanation for every aspect of the universe?
join science today
like, how the hell is attempting to advance human knowledge a huge front for sinners, inc? that's how you make it sound, as if all of the scientific community is only trying to build up a huge excuse to not become "good." what's more selfish, finding your own personal jesus (hehe depeche mode) and savior for your own sins, or trying to advance the knowledge of all humankind in matters of the physical universe we happen to live in? because the two often contradict, and in your case, you can't have both (because i mean, advancing knowledge is a myth, right? if i tried to do that, i'm obviously subconsciously trying to make an excuse for not believing in god).
newton was a christian, einstein was a christian/agnostic, and the wonderful thing about science is that you don't need to believe in anything in particular to get into it and advance it, all you need is curiosity
but according to you, it's not curiosity, it's excuse-seeking
god you're pissing me off so much
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On February 16 2009 11:02 TechniQ.UK wrote:
You can sit here and have theories about heathens in africa 2000 years ago and harden your hearts that way or you can sit here with a humble heart and ask yourselves, do I need a saviour?
IM NOT TRYING TO HARDEN MY HEART I AM SHARING IN MY SYMPATHY FOR THOSE WRETCHED FOOLS WHO NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO BASK IN THE LIGHT THAT IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR
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you're ADVOCATING being ignorant to the plight of others in order to save myself first???
what if i care as to the ROOT of the plight of others, which i don't simply accept as all the theology you're shoving in my direction?
SORRY IM NOT AS HASTY AS YOU IN SAVING MYSELF AND OTHERS, I PREFER TO FIND OUT IF THE METHODOLOGY IS EVEN CORRECT
i could sit here drinking mercury in order to cleanse my mortal soul if that's what you were trying to convince me of, or i could QUESTION if you're even right about anything in the first place.
questioning could've saved the money of a bunch of poor people that the catholic church extorted by selling plenary indulgences
questioning could've prevented the holocaust, if the adherents to nazism asked "hey are the jews really the cause of all of germany's problems?"
questioning could've fixed so much, but you dismiss questioning as a way to generate excuses against your TRUTH WHICH HAS TO BE RIGHT, NO WAY IT COULD POSSIBLY BE WRONG, THAT NEVER HAPPENS TO ANYBODY, RIGHT?
dogma or reason, dogma or reason
that's always the battle
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EPT
