|
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote:
How do you defend 4 gate warp prism?
Just as you would if you were doing any other kind of 3 rax. Pull your natural CC in to your main, make a bunker at the top of your ramp, cancel the reactors to produce marines immediately. Just like any other 3 rax, chances are you may have to pull a few SCVs. You'll still build your tech lab for some marauders and stim, but you'lll have to delay your factory a little bit until you're able to land your orbital at your natural.
On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote:
How do you play if he denies all scouting?
There's virtually no way they can deny all scouting. Having a certain amount of a certain unit composition at specific times tells you a lot about what he's doing, as well as you should be in his base early enough to see something odd like a fast double gas. Poking at him with your army forces him to reveal his, and indirectly tells you what he could be doing. Even if you want to be 100% sure you can always scan him around 5:40 with the energy of your second orbital that finishes.
No expansion? Stay in your main, make a bunker
4 gateways? Same thing
3 gate double gas? Voids or DTs, stay in your main with a bunker. Make a turret or two.
Of course all these things brings the build to a bit of a halt, but that's no problem if our opponent is allin.
|
If I cant get a scout into his base because of army at his nat/choke, when should I scan his main for gates/tech?
<nvm just read the previous post>
|
Today I'm going to be looking at incorporating a single engineering bay earlier on for +1 attack in the timing as well as in case of DTs. If everything works out as it is in my head we will have 3 medivacs, +1 attack, combat shields, stim, and the same amount of marine marauder as before. Basically we would be going for the same 10:30 4 medivac timing still, but instead, replacing one of the medivacs with +1 attack. This makes the attack a bit stronger as well as it gives us an engineering bay in time for DTs at the expense of 1 medivac.
|
On February 02 2012 02:24 Grobyc wrote:
Today I'm going to be looking at incorporating a single engineering bay earlier on for +1 attack in the timing as well as in case of DTs. If everything works out as it is in my head we will have 3 medivacs, +1 attack, combat shields, stim, and the same amount of marine marauder as before. Basically we would be going for the same 10:30 4 medivac timing still, but instead, replacing one of the medivacs with +1 attack. This makes the attack a bit stronger as well as it gives us an engineering bay in time for DTs at the expense of 1 medivac.
Great build. thx for posting it. What time do you build ebay in this case?
|
I'm thinking around the same time the starport starts, but don't quote me on that yet. I'll update the build when I know for sure tonight.
|
On February 02 2012 04:28 Grobyc wrote:
I'm thinking around the same time the starport starts, but don't quote me on that yet. I'll update the build when I know for sure tonight.
you could try putting it down while the factory is still building. really depends on the gas timing since you want to start the upgrade as soon as your ebay is done. i'm thinking it wont be too big of an issue since you'll be mining 3 gas from both your refineries, and by the time you build your factory, you'll only have maybe 2~3 marauders out, which isn't a huge gas investment.
|
On February 02 2012 01:03 Grobyc wrote:Just as you would if you were doing any other kind of 3 rax. Pull your natural CC in to your main, make a bunker at the top of your ramp, cancel the reactors to produce marines immediately. Just like any other 3 rax, chances are you may have to pull a few SCVs. You'll still build your tech lab for some marauders and stim, but you'lll have to delay your factory a little bit until you're able to land your orbital at your natural. Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 14:08 Techno wrote:
How do you play if he denies all scouting? There's virtually no way they can deny all scouting. Having a certain amount of a certain unit composition at specific times tells you a lot about what he's doing, as well as you should be in his base early enough to see something odd like a fast double gas. Poking at him with your army forces him to reveal his, and indirectly tells you what he could be doing. Even if you want to be 100% sure you can always scan him around 5:40 with the energy of your second orbital that finishes. No expansion? Stay in your main, make a bunker 4 gateways? Same thing 3 gate double gas? Voids or DTs, stay in your main with a bunker. Make a turret or two. Of course all these things brings the build to a bit of a halt, but that's no problem if our opponent is allin.
Bullshit. Look at the 4gg vs Core game on Bel'shir. First, the P can mindgame you, so you will never be 100% sure between 4gate and 1gate FE - exception being if he shows you the nexus. 4gg barely holds 4gate with NO GAS 4rax. Good luck holding that if you cap your gasses.
|
|
|
Empire.Kas did almost the same opening in the NASTL against Mana, he delayed the Factory a little bit for a faster single E-Bay.
In my opinion he actually failed with a 9.30 minute push, he just smashed his head into a wall of forcefields before he had medivacs. I think if he had the medivacs with his army he could have actually done a lot of damage to Mana, who went for a fast third.
|
On February 04 2012 04:05 Yello wrote:
Empire.Kas did almost the same opening in the NASTL against Mana, he delayed the Factory a little bit for a faster single E-Bay.
In my opinion he actually failed with a 9.30 minute push, he just smashed his head into a wall of forcefields before he had medivacs. I think if he had the medivacs with his army he could have actually done a lot of damage to Mana, who went for a fast third.
Yeah! I've been watching his stream recently and I guess he's stumbled upon the same sort of build our friend Grobyc did. Veeery similar, and its much to Kas' style. Very aggressive playstyle with drops. He also uses this same basic opener but doesnt get mauraders vs Terran. Instead masses marines and starts to drop, then starts on his tank count. Very neat!
|
Sorry guys! Out of town for the weekend, so I haven't been updating much. Expect more to be added by the end of this week though.
|
IMO the way you do this build is a little weak.
1. MOST OF THE TIME you should bunker on 21, around 4:00. A zealot stalker poke will significantly hurt you, and honestly it's worth it in all cases unless he goes nexus first or nexus before stalker (20nex).
2. Get stim before adding other addons, and IMO you shouldn't go double reactor, but I guess it's "viable".
3. I usually add an ebay around 6:30 for a quick +1, and start the factory right after +1. Fac around 7:30. You'll need to add up to 3/4 gas earlier - I'll usually get the 3rd gas before fac and 4th before port, adding an armory and a port and a second ebay when the fac finishes.
Also, ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS scan the protoss main ~8min. (the timing of the scan is usually ~7:49 based on energy). If you see no robo and 4+ gates, be concerned. If you see 3 gates and no other buildings, be slightly concerned, because it's quite possible there are more gates hidden. If you see a robo bay or dual forges going up, push out and aim to hit his base around 9:00 (stim will finish then and you can start concussive on 2nd tech lab to finish at same time with my build) and if it's not shakuras you should be able to do damage.
The problem I have with dual reactor is honestly marines with no combat shields and no medivacs die SO fast in the presence of forcefield. The dual reactor basically accomplishes nothing, and a second tech lab allows you to build up more marauders (optimal against everything but charge zealots) and get concussive for some pressure at ~9:00.
My build is not "optimal" nor is it the only way to do it, but I feel after testing variations extensively that this is most suited to deal with everything.
|
I've noticed a lot of Protosses getting really aggressive with the first stalker and zealot actually, and I've dropped a game or two this week because of it. I've never really thought the stim comes too late myself. Since we aren't in a position to really move out until medivacs and a bigger army it's simply to help defend, which I think can be compensated for with bunkers if he's going allin. The ebay part, I'm still working on, and will have it revised by the end of the week. Basically I agree with your 1 and 3, but I don't see big enough problems with the stim timing to change the build soley for that.
|
In my opinion, research combat shields first if you plan to be aggressive because the extra health goes very far when your early composition is mostly marines. Get stim first if you don't plan to be aggressive because the stim will help you defend early gateway pressure before medivacs come out. Once you have medivacs, you will be able to run over most pressure that isn't an all-in.
I'm also not convinced about the reactors though. I think I'd rather delay them and put them down instead of a supply depot when I throw down my third CC.
|
On February 07 2012 08:38 Fuhrmaaj wrote:
In my opinion, research combat shields first if you plan to be aggressive because the extra health goes very far when your early composition is mostly marines. Get stim first if you don't plan to be aggressive because the stim will help you defend early gateway pressure before medivacs come out. Once you have medivacs, you will be able to run over most pressure that isn't an all-in.
I'm also not convinced about the reactors though. I think I'd rather delay them and put them down instead of a supply depot when I throw down my third CC.
i like to go combat shields first too. +1 w/ combat shields is great before medivacs
|
Revised build with +1 infantry weapons, combat shields, stim. Leaves base at 9:50 mark, hits opponent at 10:25-10:55 depending on rush distance. I'll be doing a new video for the revised build as soon as I can fix my stupid mic :/
http://drop.sc/106975
Changes:
- New timing. Leaves base at 9:50.
- Features +1 infantry weapons, stim packs, and combat shields
- Dropped the 2-4 marauders that were in the attack before. They weren't overly important and we didn't have concussive shells at that point anyway.
- Army composes of ~35-40 marines and 2 medivacs
- Bunker at the front just past the 4:00 mark to fixed the issue of Protoss being aggressive with initial Stalker and Zealot
- Scan added around 6:00 mark for extra safety
|
honestly - this build is not going to work. What do you plan to do when any protoss with an observer just scouts you.. specially seeing two reactors hes just going to rush to storm with force fields on his ramp or delays the push with forcefields until his colossi pops? you arent attacking til 9:50 which means he will have basically unlimited force fields to block his ramp and once that colossi is out, you have a ton of useless units and will get a) killed out right or B) he throws down more gates and just all ins you with 2 colossi and a ton of gateway units. Marines are completely awful past the 9-10 minute mark as many have said in the thread.
Sadly blizzard made the matchup revolve around the marauderp and vikings for terran. If you fuck up either compositions you lose. Not to mention if you get messed with before the push, the timing is thrown off even by 30 in-game seconds and its even less of a chance you will do damage. <o/
|
You know the medivacs largely for dropping right? I've been having lots of success with it so far, and something like it has been used by Kas in a pro game as stated already, so that gives me hope. It's also near impossible for him to move out in the 11-14 minute period due to the threat of drops and counters, so that buys time to pump dual reactor vikings or get ghosts and start massing marauders if need be. I don't think you are giving it credit where its strength lies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
